All right, welcome to episode 12 of the Bioenergetic View. I'm your host, Teresa Piela, joined as always by Jay Feldman and Mike Fave. We've got an interesting couple of clips today. I didn't actually hear about Gary Brekka until you two mentioned him. And both of your dads sent you these clips, right? Or the first one we're gonna be diving into. I think that was the case.

Jay Feldman:
Yeah, individually, they both individually sent us these clips, which is really interesting.

Theresa Piela:
Well, and it fits the theme that I've noticed that there are certain very vocal, very confident speakers that our parents' generation tends to be maybe flooded by on their Facebook page. And then they might take it as truth without really looking into the mechanisms behind what they're saying or some of the maybe they're describing things that maybe are blatantly wrong, which we'll get into shortly. But yeah, I'm excited to.
to dive into this one because this is a big deal. think a lot of people are woke to the fact that thyroid is so critical for our metabolic health. And then you get people that are, mean, popularizing longevity and cellular healing, but maybe making claims that are absolutely not in alignment with physiology. So from around the internet, this first clip with Gary Brekka.
I'll just start it here and we can dive in.

Screen Sharing:
Hashimoto's thyroiditis. I'm gonna teach you more in the next 60 seconds about the thyroid than most board certified endocrinologists know. I call it Hashimoto's nonsense, pushing thyroid medication. You wanna talk about a pandemic in this country? We have a pandemic of medicating organs in the body that have done nothing wrong. The thyroid gland is right here in the neck. It produces two hormones. It produces T4 and it produces something called T3. Only here's the little known secret about the thyroid. It only produces 20 % of this hormone of T3. But wait a second, we're diagnosing hypothyroid, but it's only responsible for 20 % of the thyroid in my bloodstream. So the question is, where does the rest of it come from? Where does the 80 % come from? It comes from T4. It's methylated. This doesn't even happen in the thyroid. Yet when it's low, we medicate the thyroid guarantee if you're on th.

Theresa Piela:
Okay, I think that's a great stopping point because for our listeners and wow, I can only take small doses without feeling like my adrenaline is really getting high. anyways, Jay, let's have you start here. Let's bring it back to basics for our listeners that might be feeling overwhelmed right now with not knowing who to believe or what is actually happening when it comes to their thyroid function and conversion.

Mike Fave:
Yeah. And even, mean, kind of zooming out to the, what we're seeing here as the presentation, this immediate appeal to authority of, this is more than, you know, any board certified endocrinologist knows or most know whatever it is. And it's just the super high energy, like kind of scammy sales pitch energy. And it's so fascinating that this was something that moved so many people, as we said, maybe kind of in our parents generation, they found it so compelling that, you know, they're sharing it with other people and like the health people they know, and these aren't like health oriented individuals. but obviously it shows the kinds of things that really sell and work. And, you know, we'll talk about this with the methylation and, you know, Gary sells products that are specifically oriented toward that, which I think is part of where, where this all comes from. But yeah, it's, it's coming back to something we talk about a lot as far as why we want to break down these kinds of clips and actually evaluate the kinds of things people are saying is It's because the vast majority of people I think take these things at face value and it's really unfortunate that somebody can just do this and get millions of views when they're sharing the kind of information that's being shared here. That's objectively, think even just by all accounts, just not accurate. I, I bet if we sat down with Gary, he would say the same thing. I mean, I don't know how he could get around it, but just to get into some of the details. I mean, of course it's great to recognize that we are like in, the conventional medical system, there's medicating organs and like treating lab values, treating individual like downstream outcomes instead of treating root causes. And I think that's something that, you know, that he got the big applause break for it. But, you know, it's, it's, it's a great concept, right? That that's something I think we all agree with. But then to go on, you know, he talks about how the T3 is the active thyroid hormone.

And yet most of that's not produced at the thyroid and instead it's converted elsewhere from T4. And that's great. Really important consideration. It's not considered in the mainstream medical view. And there's a huge, huge factor when it comes to thyroid function. And instead what's often happened, what often happens is someone is given T4 and they probably are having conversion issues. They're probably not affecting or effectively converting the inactive T4 to the active T3. Yet they're given T4. It makes their lab work look okay.

They don't feel any better, but they're sent on their way and they say your thyroid's fine. And it's great to acknowledge that that's not a good approach and it's not actually fixing the underlying issue. It's not even properly band-aiding this problem because you're not actually getting the active thyroid hormone. However, there are some, like there's a real just inaccurate things here that he says. And the first one is just that T4 to T3 conversion, says it happens via methylation and it doesn't, even though he wrote it on the whiteboard, it still does not happen via methylation. I don't know how it's crazy to me. It's so crazy because it's, it's not controversial. There's no like discrepancy about this. Its methylation has nothing to do with what happens to the conversion from T4 to T3. Instead, it's a process called deiodination where you basically remove an iodine from the T4 to get to T3.

And methylation is a process of adding methyl groups, is, know, a carbon with the three hydrogens. And that doesn't happen. It doesn't happen when going from T4 to T3. So it just, it just blatantly doesn't happen. And you could maybe draw a real indirect relationship between the two because a lot of T4 to T3 conversion happens at the liver. And so if your liver is dysfunctional and it's not effectively methylated, like the methylation cycle isn't working well then it could also be a state where maybe you're not effectively converting T4 to T3 well. But again, that's kind of a stretch and just, just, it's still just blatantly incorrect. Like T4 to T3 conversion is not methylation dependent. And yeah, so mean, that's, that's the first and most important thing. There's a lot of things that do affect this conversion that are important to talk about that obviously are not going to get covered, which is again, a real disservice here because in the process of saying hey, if you have thyroid issues, it's a methylation issue by my methylation product. Not only is that not going to help, but then you're also seeing people away from recognizing the real issues that can cause problems with methylation. And there are certain nutrients that are involved, but it's you know, methylated B vitamins. It's things like zinc and selenium and iron, vitamin A, vitamin E, those are all involved with the conversion from T4 to T3. But in general, the main thing that's going to inhibit that conversion is the stress hormones.

Glucagon and cortisol in particular are really good at blocking that conversion from T4 to T3. And so if we're not eating enough, if we're stressed due to our environment, if we're over exercising, if we're not getting enough sleep, all of those things will interfere with that conversion. Carbohydrate intake is really important here. If we're getting enough carbs, really helps support the conversion of T4 to T3. And there's a direct kind of correlation of a linear relationship here with the amount of carbs coming in and how effectively convert T4 to T3. So if you're on a low carb diet, that will cause issues with the conversion from T4 to T3. So you won't have the active T3. Any inflammation at the liver will interfere with the conversion. Polyunsaturated fats, omega-6s and threes are really good at interfering with the conversion. So it's a really important part of the thyroid picture to discuss, but he really doesn't have it right here.

Theresa Piela:
Yeah, the delivery is impressive. Like, I'd love to have you weigh in on this. What was your reaction when your dad sent this to you? And sorry about your dad. Sorry, dad. No, it's both shame or judgment. I mean, it's convincing, right? That's part of, like Jay mentioned, that's part of the problem. It's like kind of thrown at us. But yeah, when you received this from your dad, what was your reaction?

Mike Fave:

My immediate reaction was I sent him an emoji that was a facepalm because the guy starts off this presentation. He has such conviction and it's like, I'm going to share more with you than your board certified endocrinologist knows and then proceeds to get the physiology wrong. So it's like any board certified endocrinologist or anybody with a hint of understanding of thyroid physiology, just facepalm themselves. Like when they watch this or is just shaking their head. It's like, what is this guy talking about? Because it's...As Jay pointed out, I guess there's a couple flaws in his thinking here. One of the major ones, and it's weird that he chose methylation because it's not even remotely discussed as the way that you activate thyroxine, which is T4, into tri-iodothyronene, which is T3. It's via removing one iodine molecule off of one of the tyrosine residues. So basically, it's like he's not even close.

I'm not even gonna wax like what motivation is here that whatever it is, I know they do the whole methylation protocol and whatever else like sure, but it's like blatantly incorrect, especially to like then like write it down. That was the first thing. But the other thing that Gary goes on here and keep in mind this is in the context of Hashimoto's. So what goes on in Hashimoto's? We have an autoimmune attack on particularly on the thyroid gland, but particularly the TPO enzyme, which is thyroid peroxidase.

And so the TPO enzyme is involved in taking iodine, creating an oxidative reaction involving hydrogen peroxide and adding it to the tyrosine residues that are present on thyroglobulin. So it creates a potent oxidative stress reaction. And the thing is, is that if you have Hashimoto's thyroiditis and thyroid function is being lowered by the autoimmune response, or we'll talk about that in just a bit then not only is the 20 % of T3 that's going to be lower, is going to be lower, the T4 that is also produced by the thyroid, even though only 20 % of the T3 is produced by the thyroid, all the other T4 that Gary's pointing out that then gets converted to T3 is also produced by the thyroid. So whether or not like the thyroid produces only 20 % of the T3 is irrelevant, because it's also producing the T4 that gets converted to the T3. So if you have this problem, your overall thyroid function will be low across the board, like, and you'll see that now. Does that then mean, as Jay pointed out, that treating with just T4 is optimal therapy? That is standard therapy and there's problems with it, but even with that, the endocrinologist is not really treating based on a T4 value. They are typically treating based on a TSH value and looking for suppression versus elevation in the TSH value, right? So, and they're going to see if TSH is high and they'll use T4 to suppress it. Again, there's some problems with this as Jay pointed out, because the active hormone, which Gary kind of alludes to, but I don't even know if he was alluding to it in the sense that this was, uh, that this was an, an active hormone or not. Um, the major thing is that the, like that you, you don't want to just use T4 only therapy by itself. You'd, you'd like, and that, that's even tangential here. The fundamental thing is that the thyroid is going to produce both T3 and T4. So it's weird to just hone in on, only 20 % of this is produced by the 20 % of the T3 spruce by a thyroid, all of it will be low across the board. And on top of that, the T4 to T3 is not being methylated, it's being deiodinated. So the combination of these things in the context of Hashimoto's, which we'll get to in a second, just gets a little bit weird. it's a weird take, especially when we talk about like what is actually going on in Hashimoto's with the effect on the TPO enzyme.Right. Let's give him some more air time just to bump our adrenaline up again.

That's the only guarantee. Why? Because you are killing the thyroid. Eventually it succeeds in completely beating the thyroid into submission and now you are permanently reliant on levothyroxine, synthroid, armor, or a natural dissected thyroid.

But if we understood that T4 is converted into T3 by the process called methylation, and that is the suite of B vitamins, pyridoxine, riboflavin, thiamine, niacin, and panothenic acid, and if we put those back into the human body, it can start to perform this function again, and the thyroid disease goes away. People say it all the time, Gary, you cured my thyroid. I said, no, I didn't. There was nothing wrong with your thyroid. I fixed how your body uses the raw material. This is what 10X Health does. We fix people by empowering the human body to do what it does best. promise you this, there is no better hormone in the human body than when you produce yourself.

Theresa Piela:
So if I buy his methylated vitamins, I won't have any issues with my thyroid anymore. Is that correct, Jay?

Jay Feldman:
Obviously, obviously. that's what they do. Interestingly, he didn't even mention, you know, of the B vitamins he mentioned, none of them were actually the methylated ones, although pretty sure he sells, methylated B vitamin supplements that have the, the methylated B's, you know, folated and B12. But yeah. So, I mean, there's, there's a few different things he mentions here. Obviously the biggest one being that this idea that taking the thyroid medications, like the exogenous thyroid hormones, kills the thyroid, you're constantly damaging the thyroid gland. And so for that reason, that's why you have to continually increase the dose and you know, it's just going to continue to cause more and more negative effects. But there's a couple of glaring issues there, some glaring problems. The first one being that the thyroid hormones that someone is taking exogenously, whether it's synthetic T3, synthetic T4 or a desiccated thyroid are the exact same hormones as your thyroid produces.

So if those thyroid hormones kill your thyroid, then so would the thyroid hormones that a healthy person's thyroid produces. know, like a healthy person would just be constantly damaging and damaging their own thyroid gland just from its normal function, which is just a ludicrous idea, just crazy to be suggesting that. but then along with that, you know, we're talking about a situation as Mike pointed out where the thyroid gland is not producing enough T4 or T3 and there are likely conversion issues too.

And you're suggesting to people that replacing those thyroid hormones is going to be making them worse. And we don't disagree that you need to work on the root of the issue. You need to sort out why you're in an autoimmune state, what kinds of things can be contributing to that? Why do you have T4 to T3 conversion issues? But to suggest to people not to provide, thyroid hormones can be really dangerous. mean, the hypothyroid state comes with a lot of negatives and not only in terms of risk of other disease processes, you know, risk of digestive issues and cardiovascular issues and things like that. But also, know, depression and tons of symptoms, know, low energy and fatigue and low libido and has a massive effect downstream on other reproductive hormones. So to suggest to people that the hormones that they're taking to help bridge the gap of, know, that's, that's there due to some underlying issue to suggest to people that they shouldn't be taking those, think is really dangerous.

If you're dealing with low energy symptoms like chronic cravings and hunger, low energy and fatigue, joint pain, weight gain, digestive symptoms like bloating or issues with motility, brain fog, poor sleep or insomnia, hormonal imbalances, or various low energy chronic health conditions like autoimmune conditions, high blood pressure, insulin resistance, and on from there, then head over to jfeldmanwellness.com slash energy, where you can sign up for the free energy balance mini course. In this mini course, I'll walk you through the best diet, exercise and lifestyle strategies to resolve these low energy symptoms and chronic health issues. These strategies are all centered around how you can maximize your cellular energy to resolve these issues. So again, to sign up for that free energy balance mini course, head over to jfeldmanwellness.com slash energy. Now there is a point to what he was saying, which is that in the people who are normally using exogenous thyroid hormones, they do often have to increase their dose over time. And that isn't necessarily ideal. It's not necessarily a problem, but typically what's happening is we're not addressing the underlying state. We're not addressing what led us to this issue in the first place. So the issue continues to compound. continues to worsen and your thyroid is producing less and less thyroid hormone. So yeah, you do end up in that case, needing more and more to be in a kind of youth thyroid state, a normal thyroid state. Of course, our goal would not be to do that. Our goal would be to fix the underlying state. but. again, the fact that that's happening is not due to the thyroid hormones themselves. So, I think that's the really central point.

Theresa Piela:
The damaging effects of taking thyroid or taking helpful thyroid that could actually get people out of a really serious catch-22. I think that is just really important to question. And Mike, maybe you can fill us in more on some of the mechanisms of why that's not the case.think this is even worse to discuss in the context of Hashimoto's. And the reason why is because what the major thing you're doing with thyroid hormones, one of the major things besides if you don't have enough actually correcting your supply is you are suppressing TSH. Now, what is TSH job? TSH job is to go to the thyroid gland and increase the expression and activity of thyroid peroxidase. Now, why is this a problem? Because thyroid peroxidase drives a potent amount of oxidative stress inside the thyroid gland and inside Hashimoto's where you get antibody or immune attacking or antibody production against the TPO enzyme. The idea here is that the immune system is going in and blocking TPO's function to some extent as a way to protect the thyroid gland against that excessive oxidative stress that the enzyme is producing.

And what you find, there's papers where basically you see people who have Hashimoto's and have elevated antibodies actually have decreased oxidative defense. They have lower glutathione status and higher amounts of oxidative stress, particularly in the thyroid gland. And so when you take the thyroid hormone, you suppress TSH and you take the pressure off the gland because you are decreasing that oxidative stress inside the thyroid gland while you're making sure that the body has adequate thyroid hormone in and of itself so that it can still function appropriately because thyroid is essential to energy metabolism. So to suggest that we should not use thyroid hormone in this circumstance at all and just take B vitamins and it's going to fix everything is very questionable at best. Very questionable when you know the mechanisms or part of the mechanism of damage inside Hashimoto's and the other reason is like why are the antibodies being produced in the first place?

Mike Fave:
So I'd say like B vitamins can be a part of the overarching picture to try to help fix energy metabolism and decrease oxidative stress because you are deficient in B vitamins. You can create ROS the mitochondria. But I think fundamentally what we want to do is take the pressure off the thyroid gland and also make sure the person has an adequate amount of thyroid hormone while fixing the conversion issues and then directly support oxidative stress inside the thyroid by making sure vitamin C, vitamin E.
Glutathione, which is a combination of glycine, cysteine, glutamate, which are amino acids, adequate protein intake in the diet with adequate selenium from things like egg yolks and seafood and things like this, as well as making sure the minerals are balanced from iron, copper, zinc, manganese so that you have all the raw material need so that the antioxidant enzymes and systems can work effectively to minimize oxidative damage in a thyroid gland so that you can actually have TPO do its job appropriately without destroying the gland in the meantime, so that you have to the immune system come in and block that negative process. So it's like actually counterproductive to say if you are hypothyroid and you have Hashimoto's antibodies, that it's a bad idea to use thyroid hormone. It's like, no, it's actually like, even though it's modern medicine, it's actually a good idea if you are hypothyroid and you have Hashimoto's antibodies to bring some replacement on board while you fix these other problems and protect the thyroid gland is long-term Hashimoto's destroys the thyroid gland by itself. Like people get the destruction of the thyroid gland. And so if you let it go unchecked, then yeah, then you may be in a circumstance where you are directly reliant on the hormone, the thyroid hormones by themselves. So it's like clinically incorrect, it's physiologically incorrect. So I don't even know if he understands what's going on in these systems, but taking a 10X B vitamin by itself is unlikely in the vast majority of circumstances to rectify the underlying problems that you would see going on with somebody dealing with Hashimoto's. There's much more things involved. And I like the idea of like, hey, let's give the body the resources it needs to correct itself, but let's be clear on what the correct resources are and also not create this fallacy of like, well, whatever the medical system does is completely incorrect. It's like, there are some things that you have available to you from the medical system that are actually beneficial and can be helpful in certain circumstances with appropriate diagnostic testing, appropriate treatment strategies that can be incorporated in a comprehensive approach instead of just take my B-Selpment and all your endocrinologists and whoever else are incorrect. And then I'm going to proceed to get all the physiology wrong following that and then make a recommendation that is tangential to what like the fundamental problems are. So for me, it's like, it's, it's just like when I, that's why I facepalm when I see this type of stuff.

Because it's like, okay, I understand that you want to get to the root cause, but we're here to help people fundamentally. We're here to help people fix their health, to help them resolve these problems. And it's like the selling that like in this circumstance, it's almost like the pushing of the product of methylation support came first before like let's actually figure out what's going on with the thyroid and then try to figure out the best strategy using multiple modalities to get people out of this circumstance.

And then, like again, like if you're to go on stage and make a presentation to like at least validate your statements beforehand and make correct, like make sure the physiology and pathways are correct. So for me, like I was pretty, I was actually a little bit frustrated by this because people are going to watch this and then they can put themselves in circumstances where they may actually be doing themselves more harm than good because of the removal of something that could be helpful. And in addition of things that may or may not be helpful, we don't even know and it's potentially okay and we don't know even if the forms that are recommended are okay. So yeah, the physiology wrong, the premise is wrong and there seems to be a clear lack of understanding of mechanisms and what is an appropriate clinical approach for something like this.

It keeps reminding me to very gently bring up the idea to get some second or third opinions. Take your time researching because I mean, and even just the emotion behind the way these videos land, can feel similar to our other discussion today. It can feel really scary to feel like you're doing something wrong. And then of course, feeling like health is the thing you want more than anything else.

Theresa Piela:

You might be so quick, like Mike was saying, to jump on something that might actually be harmful or leading you in a direction that is counter to your goals. just I guess my thought is a reminder to slow down and trust yourself while you see what the other picture might be saying or while you start to get a second opinion and not on chat GBT or what was it, Grok.
whatever it is, whatever AI tools are available these days, starting to, mean, even looking up the basic physiology and seeing, starting to understand those mechanisms can be helpful. I know not everyone wants to do that. And maybe it just on a basic level, you can listen to this podcast. That's easier for you to understand what might be supportive and helpful, regardless of these really abrasive claims that are being made. Jay, anything to add in?

Jay Feldman:
Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that is a really important point here. And I think if, if people were able to take pause, I suppose, I mean, here's the thing when people are struggling with their health, they just want something that'll help them feel better. And when somebody speaks with such conviction and energy, and even if everything they say is, is incorrect, if they're selling what, you know, they're selling is the magic pill is going to make you feel better you know, it's enticing and it's like, what do I have to lose? So hopefully as you're saying, Theresa kind of taking pause, trying to, you know, integrate what they're saying first, trying to understand exactly what they're saying, trying to integrate it into our current understanding of what's going on. and for most people probably taking some time to really dig in and start to understand the basics of these processes so that they can kind of cross-track and see, does this actually line up with what I know or what I'm seeing and going from there?

And I think, again, there's, when it comes to the thyroid replacement, I wanted to come back to that real briefly, because there's a couple of angles here to consider, which is that if, know, thyroid hormone replacement can be incredibly helpful and can be a lifesaver. It also can be done in a way that's really harmful. If someone is sticking to a low carb, low calorie diet, high stress lifestyle, seeing their thyroid go down, which is the appropriate response to that sort of, of environment. And then to just add thyroid hormones on top, you're basically forcing your body to redirect fuel and resources in a way that it's trying not to. You're kind of forcing the engines to stay on at a high level when really your body wants to shift down. It wants you to have low energy. It wants to turn down a lot of its metabolic functions in order to properly deal with the environment it has. Because if not, you're kind of burning that candle on both ends and you're going to end up with major degradation in the long-term. So we do want to be careful with our return on replacement. We also really want to be careful with T4 only therapy, which is typically what's prescribed, the T4 monotherapy because there can be a lot of conversion issues and you can make the problem worse by throwing a bunch of T4 on it because then if you aren't converting it effectively, you'll produce reverse T3, which actually interferes with the function of T3. So there's a lot of nuance here. Of course, none of that really something that's coming across, which is part of the concern with any sort of big sensationalist clip like this, know, nuance is not what sells as opposed to something like this. But yeah, there's a couple of really important angles that are not being touched on here.

We did do a really extensive thyroid series. If someone wants to dig in a bit more detail on the energy balance podcast, those episodes 95 to 99, we talked about all the things that affect thyroid hormone production and conversion and what you can do from a diet and lifestyle perspective to help fix any thyroid issues and when it makes sense to use thyroid hormones, not to how to do it properly. So that would be a great resource to check out for anyone who's still unsure.

Yeah. And while gathering your own understanding, say you are someone that maybe had a terrible reaction to thyroid medication, maybe starting to investigate, were you just getting T4? Was the ratio of T3 to T4 not physiologically appropriate for your situation? Were you taking it all in the morning on an empty stomach and causing a massive stress reaction? Some of these things, even, I mean, even the best intended doctors I've had clients come to me and say, yeah, they're taking this high dose of T4 first thing in the morning, empty stomach, and they are feeling terrible. They can feel their heart rate going wild for about an hour and they're scared to move forward and they can't understand why this could possibly be a helpful therapy. Like Jay was mentioning, the nuance and understanding that sometimes it does unfortunately require a little bit of research or working with people that understand the intricacies of it and not necessarily flooding the body with a dose that is going to cause a massive reaction or the body trying to break down the load when it wisely interprets, that's not the, there shouldn't be that bolus of T4 in the body all at once. So yeah, just understanding again, there's room to.

There's room to make it work for you. I shouldn't even say make it. There's room so that it doesn't have to be another one of these situations where you have to force things to happen and force it to, you know, it should work and this is the way I'm doing it versus what's going to be supportive, what's going to make sense and not add stress to the situation.

Theresa Piela:  Mike, have you come across this with any of your clients where they've had terrible reactions and might be afraid to even reconsider using thyroid replacement?

Mike Fave:
I actually, I was going to bring this up. I think in the bioenergetics sphere as well, there's a lot of people who go straight to thyroid ASAP, like right off the bat when they come into this fear, because Dr. Pete has talked about its benefits and other people in this fear have talked about its benefits. And I think this can create a lot of problems depending on the context that you're coming from. And so I typically, when I'm working with a client, I recommend gauging on multiple factors. First to see Is thyroid appropriate? Is it something that you need to look to work with your practitioner to see if you need support there and basically look at labs, look at symptoms, look at pulse and temp all together before making the determination. And then before you even embark a lot of times on going in that direction, I would try to make sure that you get your diet and your micronutrients and your foundation solidified. Because a lot of times those things aren't dialed in. And then when you, as Jay alluded to previously, If you bring the thyroid hormone on board and you step on the gas pedal and you don't have the fuel to drive that engine, you will create problems. And I had many clients who came to me when they, you know, they found our energetics and then they, they saw that so-and-so is using thyroid and then they decided they were going to use thyroid, but none of their foundation was fixed. They didn't do anything with their diet or micros or any of this type of stuff. And then they put it on board and it's like panic attacks, anxiety attacks. I've had clients not prior to working with me, they had gotten a fib from using too much atrial fibrillation, from using too much thyroid hormone. And then they're like, why, how would this happen? My temps were this. And it's like, you really had like, there is a risk with thyroid hormone going too high. And there's also a risk of going too low. You need to be at an appropriate dose and it needs to be indicated and you need to be in like, it comes together with the full package and complement of things. So if you're gonna press the gas pedal, the engine needs to have oil, It needs to have the spark plugs running well and you need to have gas in the tank. So if you don't have your micronutrients dialed in and you don't have your dietary stuff dialed in and you just throw thyroid hormone on top or testosterone or whatever other hormone supplements you want, you may get a really weird response. And it's like, oh, this doesn't work for me. It's like, no, you have, there's an order of events that you want to get dialed in. If you're super hyperthyroid, know, TSH is nine, all the values are all messed up, stuff like this. Like, of course, speak with your practitioner your medical practitioner, make sure that you get that stuff dialed in while you work on setting up the foundation. Cause even with the Hashimoto stuff, one B complex is not going to fix it. And neither is just like using T4 only therapy. You're looking to get a conglomeration of options on the table that you're affecting to accrue 5 % here, 10 % here, 10 % here to get that 100 % improvement. So you're looking to use multiple modalities together for the outcome instead of just driving this one factor and thinking that's going to be it. I want to point out there are no magic bullets in my experience. I haven't found the one thing, the one supplement, the one, you know, the one hormone that's like you just use this and it solves all the problems. It's usually a mix of multiple things together because the body is a system of systems. So you're looking at pathology and problems in a variety of different systems and trying to correct the pieces to get things working together again effectively.

And a lot of times, for example, when I'm working with somebody, haven't had a client where it's like, I fixed just, even if they were anemic and come in iron super low, I did the root cause protocol. They did all the blood letting and then now they're, now their ferritin is 10. I've had a couple of clients like this and their iron status is completely nuked. And it's like, yeah, like we have to replete iron, but we also have to fix the diet. And there's a bunch of other things going on that we need to correct as well. So it's multiple strategies. It's like, there's some that are more, take more precedent over other ones, but it's really a multi-strategy approach. Same thing with the Hashimoto stuff. So again, like that's even I think a misdirection to some extent with what we're seeing with Gary's clip here is like, you just take these B vitamins. You just, and then your body has what it needs. And it's like, yeah, there's more to that. Cause as Jay pointed out, you have conversion issues, you have production issues at the thyroid, you have oxidative stress to manage, you have the immune activation component, which could be involving multiple other elements as well.

And so like you have to look at these different systems, say, where's the problems? And then how do I specifically go in and address the problems from a foundational perspective and pull multiple modalities together? think that's where you get the outcome. And with the thyroid stuff and the BionurgyxPR, I've seen quite a few people, they come in, it's like thyroid, progesterone, know, vitamin D, it's like, I should be good. And it's like, those are tools and they're helpful, but I haven't found it's like that is just secure by itself. It's... in conjunction with getting your foundations and the pillars, the health pillars, right? Your diet, your sleep, your stress, this type of stuff, getting everything dialed in together and also being clear, I think diagnostically on what needs to really be done. Cause I've had people that I've worked with as well that they think that their problem is thyroid problem. Like, it's probably just thyroid hypothyroidism. I'm just dealing with low thyroid function. And it's like, all right, let's just see what the labs say. You maybe it is, maybe it's not. I don't know. I don't know. I haven't seen I can gauge by senior symptoms and we pull up the labs and there's other things going on. And it's like the thyroid is tapped, but the other things could be driving the thyroid problem in and of themselves. We really want to be clear on what the problems are as well, or try to get as clear as we can so that we're making the right intervention for the right problem instead of just like, you know, throwing the kitchen thing at stuff and hoping like hail marrying and hoping that we get the outcomes that we're looking for.

Yeah, I so agree with getting the basics right and I've seen similarly where someone has like the telltale hypothyroid symptoms, but the more I understand and hear about their story and the way they approach life, the way they live, so much of what I see as suppressing the thyroid function is just the high stress they've been under for, you know, 15, 20 plus years. so they're quick to jump to like Mike was saying, this is a thyroid problem. Yes.

Theresa Piela:
What are some of maybe the deeper roots? And I wouldn't start with thyroid replacement therapy. I'd start by, yeah, getting their body replenished, getting their nutrients stores up, getting their mental stress down, and even starting to change their approach of all. I mean, a lot of the more like type A clients I've worked with tend to have some of these symptoms. And of course they want to, they want the fix. They want to find a way out sooner rather than later. But I think there's a lot to be said about thinking about our history and our personality traits, some of which are more stress-based that might actually not be our true personality traits, but contributing to some of these symptoms. And then, you know, once those have been looked at, some of the base, or I shouldn't say some of the basics, once the basics are covered and given some time for the body to incorporate and repair, then thinking about, well, what are some intelligent ways we can support this wonderful gland to do what it's supposed to be doing?

And sometimes you don't even need to replace once the foundations are dialed in. Sometimes you, like I've had people where it's like we correct, there's a variety like zinc's low, copper's low, Hortisolid DHEA S ratio's off. And then thyroid functions look like it's sluggish. It's not like super low. And they're obviously coming from weird background. They got gut problems. Like you just, like, right, let's just correct these things. Like let's just get the micros covered. Let's get the diet under control. Let's get the gut under control. And then let's see where your thyroid function is at.

And then we see and it's like, wait, my numbers have actually improved significantly. My temps have come up and stuff like this. But people are so quick, like boom, throw on that, you know, where's the, where's the thyroid hormone at? And it's like, you know, there's, you can get to a point where you, the system is working effectively. And if you have a lot of these little roadblocks in there, like, you know, if you're, as an example, TPO is iron dependent. If you're iron deficient, like you cannot make adequate thyroid hormone because you cannot make the enzymes needed for thyroid production. The reason why I mention in the solutions for some of the Hashimoto's stuff with antioxidants balance or oxidative stress, if you are copper, manganese, zinc deficient and iron deficient, you can't make adequate, you can't produce adequate antioxidant production because the enzymes that mop up oxidative stress are dependent upon those metals.


So you don't have them, like you're not going to be able to mount an antioxidant response. And then you also will impair mitochondrial function and things like this. So it's really important to make sure the ducts are in a row and these foundational pieces, everybody wants to jump to level 10, the top of the pyramid, but sometimes you got to get the building blocks under control. Cause the other thing is again, if you jump to the top of the pyramid and that stuff isn't fixed, it doesn't work right. Cause you can tell the hormones are signals to tell the cells what to do.

But if the cells don't have the raw materials, if you have a builder on site and he's telling the workers that are on the job site to make the building and there's no bricks present, then they can't make anything. So you've got to make sure the bricks are there so that you can then make, have the building be constructed via the plans, which would be the hormonal signaling. You're not just going to like send the signaling with no resource and then think that things are going to get done appropriately. And that's why I think you want to get the layers down pat. You can do things simultaneously. It doesn't have to be exactly linear but you want to be thinking about the systems as a whole and multiple pieces simultaneously while you're correcting these things, potentially in a linear fashion or like a mixed linear parallel fashion together.

Theresa Piela:
Jay, anything to add to this?

Jay Feldman:
I mean, I think we've pretty well covered it. There's obviously so many different aspects when it comes to the use of thyroid, possible drivers of thyroid. Obviously, as we're saying, a thyroid problem is never as simple as a thyroid problem. There has to be something that causes that and we have to look at the whole system. There's so many ways that things can go wrong when someone is supplementing, whether it's too much, whether it's too soon, whether it's a well-intentioned practitioner or doctor that's prescribing even prescribing T3, they're adding T3 in, but they're having people taking on an empty stomach or they're seeing that someone is on a couple of grains of thyroid. Some of their symptoms aren't improving. So there's adding more and more without considering the fact that maybe at that point, especially it might not be just a lack of thyroid hormones that's causing these issues, even though the issues appear like thyroid symptoms or hypothyroid symptoms. So yeah, there's so much nuance in there, but I think we've covered it all well enough on the you know, in the larger sense. So, at least it'll give listeners a starting place.

Theresa Piela:
Yeah. Well, we've got more Gary coming. And it fit perfectly with this listener question. Okay, so let's shift to the Q &A portion of this episode. And I know you guys get a lot of comments on your videos, specifically in the realm of seed oils and Pufas. And I know this is becoming a lot more mainstream, which is great. I'm glad people can start to feel more empowered and just have more knowledge.

Understanding how these oils and these fats might be impacting them for not, for less than ideal reasons. And this comment from Sebastian Baron9645, he says, ultra processed seed oils are unhealthy, but nuts and seeds in their whole form are undoubtedly beneficial to health. And perfect timing on Gary Brekka's part, he just was talking about this on Joe Rogan's podcast.

Let's play the clip and we can talk about these as a unit.

Screen Sharing:
We talked about C2O last time, it's you know, and I get attacked a lot for for saying that these polyunsaturated fatty acids are bad for you. But a lot of times it's it's actually not the the plant itself. It's the distance from the plant to the table Can explain, because you were explaining the other day to us, process that it takes to turn rape seed oil, which is what- it's- They just said rape seed was problematic, so they changed the canola oil. I always thought it was corn oil. Corn's good for you. Corn oil must be great for you. we're using canola oil, cool. Can explain, though, the process? Because it's so vile.

Mike Fave:
It's insane. So, rapeseed, canola, is a plant. Essentially, you put it in a commercial press and it will come out gummy. And so to de-gum it, you use something called hexane. And hexane, if you go to the National Institute of Health or National Library Medicine, you'll see that that is a known neurotoxin. Classified as a neurotoxin, same as fluoride, right? Which is actually fluorosilicic acid. We'll get to that later.

But so we de-gum it with hexane. And then you take this de-gummed oil and you heat it to 405 degrees, which turns it rancid. I mean, there's no mechanism on earth for temperatures to reach that much, especially plants to encounter this kind of temperature. So now it denatures, it turns rancid. So now it's putrefied and it smells. So now you have to deodorize it. So we deodorize it with sodium hydroxide. So we de-gum it with a... powerful neurotoxin, we heat it to four to five degrees and turn it rancid and then we deodorize it with a very powerful carcinogen and then in some cases we bleach it and bottle it and put it on the shelf.

Theresa Piela:
Alrighty. So yeah, I think let's start with the comment because I think that's I've seen that a couple places as well where people are like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, it's just the soy oil. It's just the canola oil. You're fine if it's nuts and cashew butter in small amounts and, you know, fatty fish when you crave it. What are your thoughts there, Jay?

Yeah, I think it's, it's one of the, it's the same phenomenon that happens when like as a message blows up and gets larger, it gets diluted. And in this case, I think what's being lost or in the process of proof of being problematic, shifting or morphing into seed oils are bad, which is a little bit better marketing and, and people, something people can obviously get behind.

Part of the messaging has become it's the processing that's actually responsible for these being bad. And if you had it just in the natural forms, it's not a problem as you were saying. And from the physiological health standpoint, both can be problematic independently, right? So I'm not saying it's a great idea to, you know, be consuming tons of hexane or that the processing that goes in with, that's involved with creating seed oils isn't problematic. It certainly is. And also the way most seed oils are used can be even worse, right? If they're being used in a fryer and they're not being, especially if they're not being changed often, which is often the case, or if they're in processed food, so to speak, with a bunch of other garbage in there, definitely that's probably, you know, kind of the worst situation. But the, think a really central point that's gotten missed in like in the noise in the blowing up this message is that it's the polyunsaturated that fats themselves that are problematic. And when you take them because they're delicate, because they're susceptible to being damaged through lipid peroxidation, it's even worse to go through the processing methods that they go through and it's even worse to then have them cooked at really high temperatures and all of that. But a central part of the message is the fact that the polyunsaturated fats themselves are concerning. The more of them we consume, the more susceptible every single cell in our body is going to be to damage, to lipid peroxidation. There's a strong correlation between every single species on the planet.
Between the amount of polyunsaturated fats in their membranes and how long they're going to live and how quickly they age. Or basically the more PUFA you have, the more unsaturated the fats are in every cell of your body, the faster you age, the shorter your lifespan. So certainly that is concerning. Now, if you're going to have a small amount from seeds or nuts, you're probably going to consume far less than if you were to have it in the form of seed oils or you're not concerned about the oils themselves and you're using those oils for cooking, of course, I'd much prefer that somebody at least takes the steps of cooking with coconut oil, olive oil, ghee, tallow, know, whatever the choice is that doesn't have high amounts of polyunsaturated fats. But the, it's the same, whether it's, whether those fats are coming from the seed oils or they're coming from the quote natural unprocessed nuts, or they're coming from the fatty fish or, you know, any other kind of food source in between, it's still polyunsaturated fats and they still have that same inherent negative effect.

And the only other thing I want to mention briefly here is that I think it gets wrapped up in the idea that processed foods are bad. It's like the processing that's a problem. And I think that misses, it's an important starting place or it can be a good starting place. If someone went from eating the standard American diet to eating non-processed foods, I think there would probably be a lot of improvements there, but we're missing the fact that it's the actual ingredients that are being used in there that are generally problematic and not all of them are. So, you know, we've talked a lot about how sugar is often, you know, the scapegoat there when typically the unsaturated fat content, the grains can be major culprits that are causing people symptoms and contributing to the health issues associated with those foods, as opposed to something like potato chips that are cooked in olive oil. And even though it's a processed food, there might be nothing unhealthy about it at all. might be totally fine.

Of course, for one individual, it could be problematic for a number of particular reasons. they don't do well with potatoes and everything, or if they're trying to keep their fat intake low, but it's not the processing itself. That's necessarily a problem. And the other thing is I think it gives people who are reactive against this movement, it gives them fodder where they, they just have to focus on the fact that, well, there's no hexane actually in the final product. you know, or sodium hydroxide isn't so bad.
You know, these things are actually just the same as their natural counterparts and they're not actually problematic unless you overeat calories. Cause of course we all know that's bad. And so I think in the dilution of the message, ends up potentially leading people to apply it in an incorrect way that can lead to some negative health outcomes, but also leaves it kind of more vulnerable to getting taken down from people who are having the reflex against this idea that it's that, you know,
Processing itself is the problem.

Theresa Piela:
Mike, I heard you're a big fan of PUFA  and that's what you use to moisturize your face and you recommend to all your clients, right? Did I get that correctly?

Mike Fave:
Yeah, I actually rub myself down in salmon oil and then I sit in a spurt lamp.

Theresa Piela:
That's why your skin is looking so luminous and glowy from here. In all seriousness, what are your thoughts here on both the comment from your listener and from Gary? The age spots.

Mike Fave:
I mean, I made videos about this recently and I had a bunch of people in the comments saying things as well about like, cause I made videos specifically about how to protect yourself from polyunsaturated fatty acids. And I guess the first thing that I want to start out with your way is that the like, so what is the benefit of them? And the major benefit of the polyunsaturated fatty acids that have been cited is that they lower cholesterol, which that's even questionable because we already know that total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol and stuff like this have like just associated values with cardiovascular disease and metabolic drivers are much more important than just like what their total values are and whether the poop are lowering or not. So that's the first thing is like and then on top of that there's other things that can affect the cholesterol values from dietary adjustment even using monounsaturated fats or things like this which have less of the some of the concerns of the polyunsaturated fats. So it's like first thing there's not really that much benefit to them. So it's like

There's not, I don't see like a great reason to say, yeah, we should incorporate these for this specific benefit, especially in any high amounts in the diet. So that's first things first. So we kind of rule out that there's like this serious benefit that we have to incorporate them. The next thing is, and then one other thing is like even in the meta-analysis systematic review, the effects are at best null, like they're even. So like maybe they're saying it's not really this big benefit, not really gonna be a change. So it's like, there's not this specific reason that we incorporate them from the jump that you couldn't use other things that don't have the same problems to get the same outcomes. So there's just no reason to actually have them from the start. The next thesis, they say, we have a requirement for them. It's like, okay, sure. Let's even say we have a requirement for them, right? Let's enter that frame and make the assumption here. Well, the actual requirement for the polyunsaturated fatty acids is they say, even if you go the target at like 2 % of calories, most people will... uncharacteristically, no matter what, be above that threshold, even on the most restrictive low PUFA diet possible. It's like the idea that you need to eat them because they're essential is ridiculous because it's actually very difficult to actually get a deficiency of these fats overall because the actual requirement could be as low as 0.5 % of caloric intake, which would be almost impossible to achieve on a normal diet. So we wipe out this idea that we have these essential fats that we need to incorporate. And so we
 don't really see this massive benefit. then they and then they're like, they're not like the essential question is kind of null. So then the next piece that we get into is what are their problems? And Jay touched on them. they, they create oxidative stress because their, their structure makes them very liable to be attacked by your active oxygen species and in other free radicals in the body, which we are producing all the time. So the problem is not necessarily, not always acute exposure per se.

It's also them being loaded up in your tissues. So even if you acutely eat nuts and whole foods and whatever else, and then you incorporate the polyunsaturated fats in your tissues long-term, that's not a good idea because we know that if you incorporate them structurally, when you do have an oxidative event, say you're sick, say you're exercising, the deal is, then they're more likely to be attacked because of their structure specifically. So loading up your house with glass doesn't really make that much sense to me or loading up your house with dynamite doesn't make that much sense again, especially because we have other fat sources that have beneficial effects that don't have the same problem. So you don't even have to use the polyunsaturated fats. The next thing is the polyunsaturated fats overall at large, whether they are from nuts and seeds or whether they are from seed oils are the pre and that's the same thing, the oxidative stress that whether they're from seed oils or nuts and seeds, they still are the precursors to inflammatory molecules. They're still the precursors to the icosanoids.

Whether you get them from nuts or whether you get them from soybean oil, it doesn't matter. They still are the precursors. And that's again, once it gets into your tissues. Then the next thing that we get into here is that Omega-6, polyunsaturated fats specifically create toxic metabolites, whether they're from nuts and seeds or whether they're from soybean oil, canola oil, corn oil, whatever the deal is. You have things like a myelonyl dialdehyde, 9 and 13-hode, acrolein or hydroxynon-nil. These are all toxic products produced by them and it's via the oxidative stress damaging the fats and you create these lipid byproducts. So you're going to get those either way. The next thing is if you incorporate them largely into their sheer structure, can create negative effects on mitochondrial function, energy metabolism by changing what goes on with membrane dynamics, which Jay alluded to with the membrane pacemaker hypothesis. these are like whether it's from nuts or seeds or from corn oil or soybean oil, you have these negative effects when these fats get into your tissues. So it's like

Yeah, you can make an argument that acute consumption of nuts or the nuts in these studies doesn't like create this inflammatory signaling and stuff like this, but long term loading up your tissues on polyunsaturated fats, which in the randomized controlled trials, the long term outcomes were worse after the eight year, seven year timeframes, you start to see these problems start to build up and that's from the accumulation of the fats in the tissue. So the problem is the accumulation of these specific fats in the tissues, which is not really a concern from essentiality and there's not the specific benefits of these fats that couldn't be achieved by other things and those benefits are even questionable from those fats. The last thing I want to point out here is the benefits of nuts and seeds like going in this vein are not because they contain PUFA, polyunsaturated fats. It's because they contain polyphenols, they contain fiber, they contain micronutrients and they can modulate the microbiome. So it's like you have a bunch of other effects that can create this benefit and it's not necessarily because those fats, because those fats even in the Nothin' Seeds have decreased digestibility because of their structure. So you're not going to absorb them exceptionally well. Overall, if you have a whole nut or a whole seed, you're actually getting less of the fats. And I think the major benefit is from these other components. And again, the problem is loading your tissues up with these fats. Are seed oils worse? Yes. Especially highly heated seed oils. Are they arguably like are they worse? Yes.

But then like the idea that I'm going to load my tissues up on these because nuts and seeds are okay is still, think, a problematic paradigm. And you can talk about benefits of nuts and seeds and you can say, okay, from polyphenols, fiber, micronutrients, microbiome modulation, fair. But to say it's because of polyunsaturated fats. Well, that's a, I think a taller ask given the problems of loading up the tissues with them. And then like, you know, if you use like olive oil or like some of them are fine, like macadamia nuts or avocados or coconut oil or beef fat or whatever else, like you could still get the same benefits without having the lipid peroxidation, inflammatory mediator, negative effects on mitochondria and the toxic metabolite production without like having the lipid profile problems that you would get from the saturated fats, which was the initial hypothesis that drove the idea that we need to have seed oil. So it's like even on the foundational grounds, it doesn't make sense to then say we need to have a high omega-6 intake in our diet.


And the reviews don't even support them having this like really beneficial outcome overall. it's like across the board, it does doesn't make sense. At least from my perspective that it's like, yeah, well, the poof are okay and nuts and seeds. It's like, no, the nuts and seeds have other things that may have a beneficial effect and it's not necessarily the polyunsaturated fats.

At least they're not getting the hexane, but still, still maybe not ideal. again, this is very common theme for today is understanding the nuance and how anything can be sold as awesome and something you should do for your health. And we can also see what maybe is not spoken about or not shared as freely and starting to understand more of what your body might need to thrive and not just, you know, these myopic claims like what made nuts and seeds popular, like Mike was saying with all these benefits. Okay, sure, we can get these benefits from maybe fruit and tea and chocolate instead. And understanding too, we are getting polyunsaturated fats from more of, you know, eggs and even grass-fed beef. So understanding that you don't necessarily need more in your diet. Sure, I'm a big fan of moderation and treats and, you know, if you occasionally crave a little bit of peanut butter, that's okay too, but with awareness, with understanding of how you're tending to yourself and maybe some of the drawbacks.

Theresa Piela:
So I think this is a perfect time to wrap up today's episode, just honoring time today. Jay, where can people find you?

Jay Feldman:
Yeah, people can head over to Jfeldmanwellness.com. Got tons of free resources that they can check out there. And then also my YouTube page, which is Jfeldman Wellness, where you can take a look at other episodes from this podcast, the Energy Balance Podcast and other videos as well.

Theresa Piela:
Mike, where can people track you down?

Mike Fave:
They can track me down at my website, mikefave.com and they can also find me on my YouTube channel, Mike Fave as well as on the Energy Balance Podcast. What about you, Theresa?

Theresa Piela:
You can find me on Living Roots Wellness on Instagram or livingrootswellness.com or my app and community at Tapping with T. Thanks for asking Mike.