Jay Feldman  0:00  
You mentioned, like, this is beneficial for all of your internal organs, like it's even better, and it's.. I don't think it's intentional, but it's.. it's very deceitful framing.

Mike Fave  0:10  
There's probably long-term ramifications from using this medication by forcing the body in this pathway. It's like you're.. you're like hitting the the activating switch and the inhibiting switch, like simultaneously, like you're stepping on the gas and the brake pedal at the same time. Oh, well, high IQ people, they learn new things and do new things. It's like, yes, but high IQ people actually understand what your fundamental strategy is. And did you just change that fundamental strategy and then try to gaslight your audience about it?

Jay Feldman  0:39  
It allows you to just smash your calories with your goals and move on with your life, like stop, stop worrying about this, stop worrying about the other physiological effects here, those side effects and everything. Just move on with your life and be smart and take this drug. It gets, it's gross to hear that. I mean, it sounds like he's on their payroll.

Theresa Piela  0:58  
Okay. Welcome to the Bio Energetic View. I am your host Theresa Piella, joined as always by Jay Feldman and Mike Fave. Today, we'll be talking about Mike Israetel's thoughts on Retatrutide and Greg from Kino Body's views on intelligent uses of GLP one drugs in the fitness community, and closing out the show with a success story, and hopefully a Q and A, and if we don't do that today, we're gonna get to them eventually. All things aside, let's just jump right in.

Unknown Speaker  1:29  
What do you think is going to be the next miracle drug? So, the

Mike Israetel  1:32  
soon to be approved drug over Retatrutide does one thing that even Trizepatide doesn't do, and that's it boosts your metabolic rate, and that does a few really cool things. One is it just reduces your food intake, but it burns more calories on top, so you lose weight like way faster. The other thing is that it's even healthier for all of your internal organs, liver, and stuff like that. It's the best medicine for non-alcoholic fatty liver disease ever discovered by a mile, and it wasn't even designed for that. The other thing that it does is because it is constantly liberating energy, instead of storing it away or just kind of cooling the system when you're on it, and you're dieting, you feel mentally way more alert and awake, and physically way more able, kind of as if you're not dieting at all. That's a humongous deal, and if you combine that with intelligent eating and working out, it's the revolution that pretty much ends anabolic steroid use.

Theresa Piela  2:19  
Alrighty, Jay, so I heard you've been using this a lot in your practice. Can you tell us about the benefits?

Jay Feldman  2:25  
Yeah, you know where you got that information from, but yeah, no, it's funny. Speaking of Retatrutide, or Reta, as you'll often hear it, you know, nickname thing, it's what's that like,

Mike Fave  2:43  
as you often hear the kids saying these days.

Unknown Speaker  2:45  
Yeah,

Jay Feldman  2:46  
the kids saying these days, I mean, it's all again. I don't know if you guys are seeing this, but on any of the posts I've done on GLP ones, you know, it's all like, oh yeah, that might apply to Tirzepatide or Semaglutide or something, but red is like a totally different, totally different story, way better, like all of the negative effects are now resolved, like this is the wonder drug, and it's gaining like a ton, a ton of like traction, and yeah, I mean, everyone's very, very excited about it, as we heard from Mike, is really tell us, it's like the new wonder drug, and you know it basically has the same effects as most of the GLP one drugs, but then you add on top of it, it's a glucagon agonist, and that introduces some other effects that we heard a little bit about, you know, that it also boosts your metabolic rate, and so you're not just reducing your food intake, you're also increasing the energy expenditure, and you know, we heard from Mike that Mike is retail that, you know, now you, you can lose weight even faster, and it's so much healthier for all of your internal organs, and also it feels good, right? Like it's, it's like you're not even dieting. There's a lot to break down here, but just at the start, I mean, I would say that we've talked a lot about concerns with excess glucagon. Glucagon is a stress hormone, it's - we've talked through this, you know, the research pointing to that, but it's released in response to any general version of stress, whether that's what you know, interventions that people consider to be healthy, like exercise, which we generally consider to be healthy too, or it's, you know, psychological stress, or it's physical trauma, or it's starvation, or low-carb diet, or low-calorie dieting, or various other things that induce stress on the body, and that glucagon being a stress hormone, it has certain effects that are very parallel to other stress hormones, like epinephrine and cortisol, and those tend to all be released together, and as we'll touch on, they do increase the metabolic rate, so they do increase energy expenditure, and this is great. It's really important that we have these hormones, they allow us to deal with stress. Which is basically an energy deficit, and by forcing energy production, it allows us to have the ATP available to deal with whatever the stressor is that's depleting energy again, whether it's exercise or an infection or some other sort of stressor, and what all of the stress hormones tend to do, including glucagon, is shift the fuel utilization toward using more fat and less carbohydrates, considering that again this is a stress kind of backup mechanism, and it allows us to dip into our fat stores, which are there for, you know, times when we're starving, times when we don't have enough fuel available, you know, it's our main fuel reserve, as opposed to glucose and glycogen, which are also, you know, there is some release of glycogen as well with glucagon, but as we dip into stress, we don't want to be using those as much, because we don't have as much available there, and there's certain organ systems that need that glucose to run effectively, and so we want to make sure to conserve that glucose, so all these stress hormones start to shift us into more fatty acid metabolism, but they also have downstream effects that are meant to help us deal with the stress, and the main one to be aware of is that they tend to lower our metabolic rate, so that we have more energy and fuel conserved, so that when there's future stressors, we're able to deal with them, and one of the main ways that they do that is by lowering thyroid hormone production and conversion, and glucagon specifically inhibits t4 to t3 conversion, and also increases the conversion of t4 to reverse t3 which is not only the inactive thyroid hormone, but actually is has antithyroid effects, and so we were talking about this new medication here that basically mimics all these effects of glucagon, it acts as a glucagon agonist, so it acts, you know, on the glucagon receptor as if it were a glucagon, and we're basically inducing all the effects of the stress hormones, and again, something else we've talked about a lot is, in the short term, stress hormones can be really beneficial, they have strong anti-inflammatory effects, that's why glucocorticoids are widely used medications for lowering inflammation, and they boost the metabolic rate as well, but that doesn't mean that that's a good thing. It doesn't mean it's something that we want to rely on long term. It doesn't mean that that's the ideal way to raise your metabolic rate or to lower inflammation, and instead, there's a lot to be concerned about. There's a couple of things that Mike is ready to tell, mentioned here that I think are worth unpacking a little bit. So, one, I mean, again, just as a starting place, that kind of raising the metabolic rate. In this case, we're talking about this happening as a result of stress, or you know, a stress pathway. And while it's true that this leads to more energy expenditure, that doesn't mean that it's a good thing. It's true that this will lead to weight loss faster, but what this also means is that we're driving the energy deficit further, so if we're already eating less, normally dramatically less, with these GOP one agonist drugs, we're already going to be in a major energy deficit, not just calorie deficit, but physiological energy deficit, like ATP deficit, and if we then drive energy expenditure to just run through fuel, not really toward any sort of constructive means, but just to kind of burn fuel, we're then going to drive that energy deficit further. Obviously, in the short term, this will lead to faster weight loss, and that's why there's a lot of different drugs that have been used over the years that activate the stress system. One of the ones that is really well known in bodybuilding is Ephedrine, which works on the adrenergic system, a different stress pathway, but very parallel with glucagon, and raises the metabolic rate. It makes it a lot easier to cut and lose body fat, but there are major, major costs to that, and I mean, on one hand, it's the fact that you're going to be very prone toward weight regain, even more so than if you let's say we're just not getting that extra kind of expenditure, but also there's a huge compromise to the rest of your bodily functions, because all of our organs, our brain, our liver, our heart, you know, and not from there, all of our organ systems, our immune function, our digestion depend on, depend on energy, depend on ATP availability, and if we're just depleting that even faster and further with a drug that's a glucagon agonist, we're just stealing that from the rest of our bodies, and yes, in the short term, you'll feel fine until you crash, and until not only are you regaining weight, but you're feeling terrible, and so that's I think the biggest kind of broad picture concern when it comes to really burning the candle at both ends, like taking in way less food, and then also just stepping hard on the gas pedal at the same time, you know, it's like the extreme version of over training and under fueling, which, whether you're doing it with whether you're making it easier by using a drug or you're just doing it by sheer willpower, neither place, neither one is going to get you to a good place,

Theresa Piela  9:49  
right?

Jay Feldman  9:51  
What's that,

Theresa Piela  9:51  
aside from the shredded effect,

Jay Feldman  9:53  
right? One, and that's the thing, is you'll be shredded and in that. Moment you can take a snapshot of your markers and how you look, and that'll be great, but it's, it's not going to last, and you don't want it to last, because if it lasts, it means that you're dramatically depleting energy from those other organ systems, and you're just going to crash harder after, if you're dealing with low energy symptoms like chronic cravings and hunger, low energy and fatigue, joint pain, weight gain, digestive symptoms like bloating or issues with motility, brain fog, poor sleep, or insomnia, hormonal imbalances, or various low energy chronic health conditions like autoimmune conditions, high blood pressure, insulin resistance, and on from there. Then head over to jayfeldmanwellness.com/energy where you can sign up for the free energy balance mini course. In this mini course, I'll walk you through the best diet, exercise, and lifestyle strategies to resolve these low energy symptoms and chronic health issues. These strategies are all centered around how you can maximize your cellular energy to resolve these issues. So, again, to sign up for that free energy balance mini course, head over to J Feldman wellness.com/energy and just to touch real briefly on, you know, he mentioned, like, this is beneficial for all of your internal organs, like it's even better, and it's.. I don't think it's intentional, but it's.. it's a very deceitful framing, because it's not like there are some unique metabolic effects of glucagon agonism that, like, improves heart health. In fact, you actually see excess glucagon in every aspect of metabolic syndrome. You see it as a driver of cardiovascular disease, of type two diabetes, of every aspect of metabolic syndrome. It's not something that you really want to encourage. So, it's not like this is just good for your kidneys and it's just good for your liver. Rather, what it is, is people lose dramatic amounts of weight with these drugs, and specifically with Redda, more so than the other drugs, and so, as a byproduct of that, you'll see things like reduced fatty liver, more so than the other drugs, but what they actually find is that the reduction in fatty liver is just driven by the body weight changes, just driven by the general loss of body weight, which is way more dramatic with Retta Two Tide than these others. That also means that the consequences of that are going to be way more dramatic. And again, you can take a snapshot of anybody who's lost a lot of weight, and yes, all of their markers will look better, but if they're just going to regain the weight after and be in a worse place metabolically, like a much more compromised place, it's all going to be worse after. So, wanted to mention that, and one thing I want to come back to, maybe I'll bookmark it and let you hop in. Mike is this idea of how it makes it feel like you're not dieting at all, and there's just something really telling about that, that the perspective is, in order for you to, like, quote unquote, get to a healthy weight, it has to be really uncomfortable, and you have to feel physically and mentally drained, and your libido has to tank, and all of that, and it speaks a lot to the kind of bodybuilding, fitness cutting perspective, and also I think speaks a lot to the failure of just the typical calorie model when it comes to this approach, and I don't know if you guys have seen this. There was a reel of Mike, who's really tells diet, and it's

Theresa Piela  13:16  
like

Jay Feldman  13:17  
what his diet is.

Theresa Piela  13:18  
No, I want.. I want to know.

Jay Feldman  13:20  
He did a whole video. Maybe we'll have to pull it up. I'll see if I can pull it up real quick when Mike comes in. But it's like, if someone's on this diet, yeah, obviously the only solution is you have to just eat less, and if there's a drug that helps you eat less easier, then that's going to be great. But for someone like this to be, to be giving health advice and to be eating the way is, is to me embarrassing. It's, it's pretty insane.

Theresa Piela  13:43  
I can't wait.

Mike Fave  13:46  
Yeah, I mean, for me, the Retatrutide piece is interesting, because from a pharmacologic standpoint, when I'm looking at this, it's like, okay, you have GLP one and GIP agonism, which should technically lower glucagon output and increase beta cell function, and then increase insulin sensitivity and insulin production, but then you also are simultaneously agonizing glucagon signaling, which is actually counter to the other signaling that you're running. You typically wouldn't have glucagon signaling happening in high levels simultaneously with an increase in insulin signaling, so you're pushing, you're pushing semi antagonistic pathways simultaneously, and so for example, if you're going to ink, you're going to have GLP one and GIP. Well, I guess let me just back up really quick here. Red or true triad hits GLP one, GIP, and glucagon signaling all together. The other GLP one drugs either just hit GLP one or Trizepatide hits GIP and GLP one, so there's there's three separate signaling pathways. Early is where just GLP one, Trisepetide is one of the newer, which is GLP, GIP, Red, two triad is all three, so it has a glucagon component, GLP and GIP as a. Cretin hormones, they're they're released as we talked about in, in the separate episode, when we take in food and our intestines starts to recognize, hey, we have amino acids, we have carbohydrates, and what it starts to do is it starts to tell the pancreas to shut down glucagon signaling, tell the liver to shut down gluconeogenesis, and then tells the pancreas to start releasing insulin, so the job of the incretin hormones in general is to prepare the body for food, and then also to slow gastric emptying, so we can drip food out into the small intestine slowly, so we absorb all the food that comes into the system. So, okay, so you're gonna, when you take these medications like a trizep, tide, or even a semaglutide, you're pushing on these pathways hard, you're pushing on them hard. Then to add a glucagon signaling component to that is counter to those, because glucagon's job is when you don't have food coming in, when you don't have carbohydrate coming in, to basically tell the liver to release glucose by taking amino acids and glycerol backbones and potentially lactate and whatnot and converting those into glucose while also decreasing peripheral glucose utilization at the mitochondrial level, so it's a weird dynamic to try to push GLP one, GIP, and then glucagon at the same time, because their mechanisms and their signaling pathways are oppositional to each other, and their purposes are oppositional to each other. So, when I'm looking at this, I'm like, was the long-term ramification of increasing insulin signaling and trying to lower glucagon signaling in one side and then agonizing glucagon receptors on the other side? So, you're like pushing insulin to drive substrate to the tissues, but then signaling glucagon at the tissue simultaneously, which will block carbohydrate utilization in general, while insulin is increasing carbohydrate flux. So, it's a.. it.. the whole picture together is that A is a sole experimental drug. It hasn't fully come out through trials, and B, the way that it works from like a pure mechanistic standpoint is questionable, and I'm wondering, for me, I wonder what is the long-term ramification of doing something like that, especially since we know what the negative impacts are of running high amounts of glucagon signaling. It's pretty much characteristic in almost every single metabolic disease, you see high levels of glucagon signaling, and now you're going to take a drug that agonizes glucagon signaling, while simultaneously trying to up regulate insulin signaling, and then also lower, like it should be lowering glucagon signaling as well. So it's a very, it's a very weird mixed profile, and I think from my perspective, looking at this, I would anticipate that there's probably long-term ramifications from using this medication by forcing the body in this pathway. It's like you're, you're like hitting the the activating switch and the inhibiting switch, like simultaneously, like you're stepping on the gas and the brake pedal at the same time, particularly at the liver. So I think that that, like, sure will run through substrate and clear out fat deposits in the liver. Yeah, it probably will, but at the same time, and we'll, we'll potentially increase weight loss. Sure, it potentially will, but I do think that there's probably some longer term problematic consequences from pushing both pathways simultaneously from a pharmacologic standpoint, and also the stuff that, um, but that Mike Isser tells talking about, like he's talking about it broadly, I think some of the things that he says are like, oh, it's just fundamentally better for all of your organs, it's like, it, yeah, like, where, where are we getting that, like, where, like, what, like, that's a very broad statement, what exactly does he mean in there? Obviously, it's a clip, because the like beyond just like, okay, it helps clear liver fat, and it helps with weight loss, and adjust some of the insulins that the insulin signaling, like, is it fundamentally better long term for the organ systems? So that's the piece for me, as far as the pharmacology goes. The other thing that I wanted to touch on here, that's very interesting, is the parallel, because I think this, this, there's like multiple pieces of evidence here, and this is something that we talk about in the bioenergetic sphere pretty consistently, but he talks about the glucagon component of rata two triad, actually increases like wakefulness, or increases, I don't know, alertness, right? And that's what we talk about with stress hormones. That's what we talk about with why fasting. One of the reasons that fasting or low carbohydrate diets increase feelings of alertness is through running these same hormones, and now you're seeing an individual talk about taking a medication that up regulates or agonizes this particular hormone, specifically glucagon. It's like, oh yeah, I'm way more alert, I have way more energy, stuff like this. It's like the.. it just an interesting parallel to draw between, okay, that's the same pathway that you're pushing on a low carbohydrate diet, or you're pushing in fasting, and also what we're talking about from a pro metabolic standpoint of like. The reason that people have so much energy in these different areas is because they are running on some of these adaptive hormones, which again eventually do come at a cost, especially glucagon is one of the primary ones in things like type two diabetes, where if you knock out glucagon signaling, you can actually do like almost eliminate a large proportion of the features of type two diabetes just by knocking good gun out, so it's a weird mix for medication in terms of pharmacology, and I'd be curious to see what the actual long-term ramification of pushing the pathways like that

Theresa Piela  20:33  
is. I guess we'll have to find out. We're part of this mass experiment. Well, we aren't, but humanity. Jay, jump, jump back on, and what would you like to add?

Jay Feldman  20:43  
I mean, I agree with Mike's points. You know, we see it a lot in where it's like people are trying to reverse the natural effects of a bad diet or being severely undernourished or something like that, where it's like, you know, you're you're trying to get unnaturally lean for a bodybuilding competition, or for your own ego, or due to your own body dysmorphia, or whatever it is, and so you have to use before it was a combination of anabolic steroids and you know, crazy high doses of t3 and ephedrine, and now you're just throwing this into the mix, and it's like, or you know, you can't even think of this, think of it as like TRT. It's like all of the things you're doing, everything in your environment is pushing your testosterone down for a reason, and obviously that doesn't feel good, because the things that you're doing aren't generally supportive of health, and you don't want to feel bad. So, instead of actually looking at those things and examining them more closely, and maybe making some changes there. It's let's just replace the testosterone and assume there's not going to be any consequences to that. Like, it's only a good thing. Testosterone is a good hormone. Your body makes it. It has all these benefits. It's like there's a reason why your body's trying to turn that down. Same thing with t3 You don't want to just add a ton of t3 to the system if it's turning it down for a reason, and so you're doing the same thing here, you know, you're, you're, it's, and it's not about it being like quote unquote unnatural, it's that it's in direct odds with your body's innate signals for a reason, like our bodies aren't stupid, there's, and the problem isn't just the availability of food, or you know, whatever, we're going to hear from Greg here in a moment, but yeah, I mean, that's I think my main thoughts. The other one that I want to mention before you look at Mike's diet, because I did, Mike is maybe Mike Fave's diet too, we'll find out,

Theresa Piela  22:33  
we'll do both, we'll contrast, I bet they're the same, so maybe we can look at, I

Mike Fave  22:37  
don't, I don't eat guys, I just take reta,

Theresa Piela  22:41  
truth comes out today,

Jay Feldman  22:43  
but I did just want to mention again this idea of it's like it makes it feel like you're not even dieting at all, and it's like if you're feeling terrible while you're dieting, it's a sign that something's off, like your diet and lifestyle should be healthy and should lead to you feeling good, and also being a healthy body composition, like those two things should be hand in hand. They shouldn't be at odds with each other. And so, if you're feeling like you're killing yourself to be lean, a, it's probably not going to be something that's going to work in the long term, and b, it's probably going to come at the cost of your health, and see, it doesn't have to be like that. And all of us, well, can at least speak for Mike and I, because we were living it together. Have gone through the phases of intense restriction for body composition, and this, like, living your life feeling like that is like with that weight on your shoulders, if you like, that's the only solution, it's just restriction and more exercise, and earning your calories, earning your carbs, all of those ideas, and to get to a place where, then, you actually have the freedom to eat the amount that your body needs and maintain a healthy body composition, is is the night and day difference, and it's hard to translate to someone who's stuck in that earlier mindset, but yeah, the restriction isn't the solution here, like our body signals are there for a reason, and if we're properly listening to them and giving it what it needs, body composition and being healthy are not at odds, but with that, let's see why maybe they are at odds. And Mike is retails case.

Theresa Piela  24:10  
Oh, I can't wait. Okay, are you guys ready? Because I don't know if I'm ready. I'm ready. Okay,

Unknown Speaker  24:16  
let's see what the highest IQ coach in the world eats in a day. So, for breakfast, Dr. Mike has protein powder, Gatorade, and another electrolyte mix all put together in a bottle of water, and then he goes straight from there to training, barely any carbs in the system. Post-training, he has a microwave meal and a bunch of slices of Jewish rye pumpernickel bread, and then, of course, he has to get some real nutrients in, so he has four protein bars, instant decaf coffee, and another couple slices of that bread for dinner, another microwave meal and more the Jewish rye, and as a little late night snack to make sure his body has plenty of energy, he has cheese puffs and Pepsi. His day of eating is two microwave meals, four protein bars, a loaf of bread, and cheese puffs. Yeah, I think that might be. Why he had a liposuction,

Theresa Piela  25:02  
so my, you were just, you were just finishing your, your rye loaf before we started this podcast, I think, or wait, you took your Red, so you didn't need

Mike Fave  25:12  
it. No, no, I was able to skip the Rye Loaf today.

Theresa Piela  25:16  
Well, good, we don't want to give people, my

Mike Fave  25:18  
diet is strictly, it's strictly Mac Nuts now, the Mac, the Mac Nut, and Reddit diet. It's, it's Mac Nut fasting at this point. It's the new thing. Once everybody finishes sardine fasting, they'll start Mac nut fasting.

Jay Feldman  25:31  
I think it could catch

Theresa Piela  25:32  
on.

Jay Feldman  25:33  
You gotta trademark that pretty quick here.

Theresa Piela  25:35  
Yeah, people,

Mike Fave  25:38  
that's definitely true. Doesn't smell as

Theresa Piela  25:43  
bad. Speaking of more influential figures out there on the internet,

Greg, I

Mike Fave  25:52  
guess. Did you want to say anything about the diet, Jay?

Jay Feldman  25:54  
I think it speaks for itself. I don't know,

Theresa Piela  25:56  
does it?

Mike Fave  25:59  
I mean, it's just like it's like the most like soy and green diet ever, right? It's like they're not soy, but like soy in itself, whereas like I'm gonna.. it's just hyper focused on macros, not even considering micronutrients, food quality,

Theresa Piela  26:15  
stuff

Mike Fave  26:16  
like this

Theresa Piela  26:16  
joy.

Mike Fave  26:18  
It's a window into the thinking process, though. Yeah, like I'm going to reductionistly like hone in on these particular, these particular elements in the diet, so it's just macronutrients where they come from is likely or largely irrelevant. And then I'm also going to like reductionistly hone in on to this particular medication, rather to try it, or whatever it is, and use it for this particular purpose without an understanding of, like, what the, it like the wide-ranging ramifications are of that substance as it radiates out, and then, like, what's the long-term time course or risk of using this substance, right? So, this is it, you could see the thinking play across between the diet and between the strategies, so it's a interesting,

Jay Feldman  27:06  
I mean, it's like the ultimate iteration of if it fits your macros, and it's all about calories, and it's a failure, like he's, he needs Reda, you know, it's, and he's the, you know, the high IQ PhD scientist,

Theresa Piela  27:19  
it is

interesting to think about looking at people's dietary preferences and what might be going on psychologically. It's like you were saying, Mike, it's just a really an interesting lens to see how someone might boil something down and lose sight of what else there could be, but I can't really imagine cutting out all the joyful fresh foods and the brightly colored things and the sweet things, but anyways, I guess Pepsi's sweet enough

Mike Fave  27:44  
diet, Pepsi nonetheless.

Theresa Piela  27:45  
Oh yeah, still sweet. So Greg from Kino Body, really huge following, just on Instagram, 1.7 million followers. Looks like he got his start talking about intermittent fasting and pretty severe types of existing, but it seems like it's not quite as sustainable as he thought it would be, given that now his approach is the necessity of these drugs. So, let's, let's jump in here.

Kinobody (Greg O'Gallagher)  28:20  
Oh, Greg, you're using a low dose trizepatide GLP. You're cheating using a modern day tool that has overwhelmingly positive health benefits. That's not cheating, that's called having an above average IQ. Not embracing new tools is low IQ, especially because we have the same genetic code as our hunter-gatherer ancestors that evolved having to search for food, and now we live in the modern world with desk jobs with massive amounts of food availability, and we're supposed to keep our calories low and use willpower. We have, we can just stimulate our own satiety hormones, just stimulate your own satiety hormones to match your appetite with your goals and move on with your life. Why is that such a crazy thing.

Theresa Piela  29:03  
Okay, tell us, Jay, why is that such a crazy thing? Are we crazy? Is he crazy? Who's crazy?

Jay Feldman  29:10  
I mean, it's so funny to see someone who's like dedicated their, like, at least professional life, and it seems like personal life, toward this outcome of like being lean and ripped and telling people that they can do it just by following his advice, and to talk about how you know nowadays with like desk jobs and all this food availability, like of course it's impossible to do that. There's a little bit of hypocrisy there. I feel like I don't think he was going around before saying all of his programs don't work and don't follow his advice, because it's impossible in the modern day, and he was just waiting for a drug like this to come out, so that it feels a little disingenuous, just just from that alone, but circling back to just like this ridiculous, like condescension, I. Of this concept that you're like stupid if you're not using something to hack your hunger signals, as if that's all this is. Again, it's so similar to what we heard in that commercial in the last episode, where it's like this is no different than if you could have taken a pill to be able to parallel park or save more cats from trees, or whatever. Like, there's no consequences to this. This isn't a drug with legitimate side effects and direct effects that could potentially be concerning. All it does in isolation, nothing else is happening. All it's doing is just reducing your hunger signals. A, there's no negative consequences of that in the first place, and b, there's no other effects it's having, like it's beyond dishonest, and again, maybe, like, I don't necessarily think it's coming from a place of dishonesty. I think it's coming from somebody who's probably starved themselves for so long, and you kind of hear this in some of his other posts about the GLP ones, like it's coming from someone who's been in pain, like physical mental pain from having put themselves into this position for so many years, and now feels like they can do it without that weight on their shoulders, but I get where that's coming from. Like, I don't think it's dishonest, I just think it's not a fair or accurate picture, and it's deceitful to other people, whether intentional or not. And you can make that same, I mean, you know, I've been using these examples a few different times, because I think it, they're just a little bit, like, kind of clear, and maybe more obvious, but you know, you could say the same argument about it's like, look, there's this modern day tool, gives you so much energy, you won't be, you know, you'll go to the gym, you'll work out really hard, you're not gonna be craving foods, whatever. Just a quick snort, you know, like no big deal. And you know you're feeling great, and I'm referring to cocaine here, and it's like, you know, it's the same argument. It's like all it does is it just gives you energy, you know? Or again, amphetamine derivatives, ephedrine. It's like this is a natural hormone that your body produces, or this acts on a natural pathway that already exists, and it just gives you lots of energy, and it takes away the food cravings, and it's a modern day tool that, if you're smart enough, you'll use it. I think a really just a major disservice, and really dangerous to be giving people advice like this, as if there is just like, as if it's having these effects in isolation. It doesn't have all these other negative effects that we've been talking about. And again, he made the same claim about how it's like fundamentally like healthy for like, like improves the health of your.. I don't remember if he was talking about like organ systems or like metabolic state or something, but. but yeah. And again, to be flippant about it, as you were saying, Mike, in that, in that commercial last time, it's like you just, it allows you to just match your calories with your goals and move on with your life, like, stop, stop worrying about this, stop worrying about the other physiological effects here, those side effects, and everything, just move on with your life, and be smart, and take this drug, because, it's gross to hear that, I mean, it sounds like he's on their payroll.

Theresa Piela  33:04  
That was what I was thinking, and just scrolling through his page, it seems like he's getting paid a lot of money, but who's to say?

Mike Fave  33:12  
I would say my take with him is that I think the issue is that he's promoted, I guess, a couple things. Let me back up. I don't think there's a problem with, like, a new tool or new intervention comes around, and then we are able to integrate that tool into our current systems. I think that's a fair point. I think you know there's not an issue with doing that, new strategies, whatever we're constantly learning. I get that. So, the argument isn't against that. At least, at least, I don't think you guys are arguing against that either. But I'm definitely not arguing against that. I think the framing and the perspective with which he's viewing these things is the problem for me, because it's this idea, like you can hear where his, his, his presupposition points come in, where he basically is saying, well, our hunter gatherers, like ancestors, like they just, they were moving around a lot, and they didn't have access to food, so that's why they were lean, and, but, so they were probably just always hungry then, but since they didn't have access to food, well, that's why they stayed lean at that point, and now, because we have access to so much food, and like our cravings and our appetite are just going to make us fat, so what we have to do is we have to take this drug, so that we can basically control our cravings and our appetite, and then, and then we can stay lean long term, but I think it dismisses the point of what fundamentally is cravings and appetite about. Why do we even have these cues? Why do we even have these signals, and we, the, we know why, right? You crave salt, you crave sodium, you crave water, you crave sweet things, and it as a way to provide the body with a need. That it has right, so when you're craving carbohydrates, so say for example, when you see this in a research, when somebody is under a significant amount of stress, they will crave carbohydrates, they will crave fatty things in general, or a combination, because basically this is an adaptive response by the body to say, hey, I can either up regulate cortisol, adrenaline, glucagon, and I can start shredding my own tissues in my own supply or I can get exogenous fuel source out from from somewhere else and not have to rely on these hormones and you see when you take somebody under stress and you give them sucrose or you give them something sweet it lowers the stress hormones because they are not needed you don't need to shred your tis you don't need to up regulate gluconeogenesis when you take exogenous carbohydrate, so I think this, this, this underlying principle that our cravings and the signals that we get from our body are fundamentally wrong, and that the pharmaceutical companies and medications are going to come in and rescue us from our own physiology. I think that framing is the problem for me. I think that, and it's wrong. It's actually fundamentally incorrect, and it's indicative of somebody who doesn't understand the physiology, who doesn't understand why the cravings come into place in general, what their purpose is, and what the hormonal overlay is of those cravings. So then it and I, when you come from that perspective, it's like, sure, you can, if you function within Greg's line of argument, his logical thought process, you could say, okay, yeah, so you know, if it's this hunt, like, now it's just this environment that we can't control our cravings because we always have food, and we were hungry back then, but we didn't have food, well, yeah, we'll just take this drug, and then now, even though we have the food, we're not hungry, but that means it's because he's functioning within this very narrow logical thought process, and I think he doesn't understand, like there's no context for him around what the cravings mean, there's just a label that the cravings are a problem and that they're a bad thing, and I think the flip here needs to be, at least for my perspective, the flip is the cravings are important signals to let us know what our body fundamentally needs in terms of energy, and then in terms of different macronutrients, and then also certain minerals, right? Like, if you have a craving or water, you have a craving for water, you have a craving for salt, there's they're talking about sweet and fatty and protein-based taste cravings, and also taste receptors, so these things exist for a reason. And then the question is, well, why is there a problem now with the food noise, or with any of this type of stuff? And it's not because our cravings are a problem, but because we have industries that have been erected and products that have been created to hijack these known cravings. It's the same thing with marketing, the same thing we talk about with the commercials, the same thing with the social media feeds are set up so you keep scrolling forever and you keep watching the content, the content in itself is created to give you 10 second sound bites, the food is created to get you hooked onto it, to want to keep eating it, to harness the cravings, so the problem is not fundamentally humanity itself or our cravings or things like this, it's not an, it's not an innate human problem. The problem is that other humans have created systems to take advantage of our innate processes, of our cravings, of our attention spans, of our neurology, etc. Right. So this is that's the thing, and when you start to realize that, then you start to say the solution is not that I take this medication to knock back my signaling, which is technically fundamental for me to manage my health. The solution is to realize that these external things are the problem, and I need to, I need to create strategies and systems to manage those things, and I see this under the comment section under under my videos quite a bit. People will say, well, you know, diet is so complicated, you make it so complicated. Our ancestors ate whatever they wanted, and the thing is, like, a couple things about that. One, a lot of people are sick, a lot of people have serious health issues, and so my this is what I'm trying to do, my content is not population level basic advice, it's if you have these specific problems, here's what you do, here's the steps, here's the way I think through it, here's what you walk through, because it takes more than just, you know, eat, eat food, not too much, mostly plants, like that doesn't help people who have serious issues, but getting into the details in the weeds does help people who have serious issues. So, the concept and perspective is for that, and because the game is anteed up, the game is harder. We're not playing with, oh, you go out, you fish, you have farm fresh eggs, and there's nothing else to eat now. Now we're playing with you, have access to an unlimited number of options, and you need to have mental strategies and understanding to be able to navigate the options. The map has changed. There's not one way, it's not one main road in the town anymore, it's a whole highway system. There's a number of roads, and you need to know how to navigate them effectively. So, yes, it becomes more complicated as the. Terrain, it becomes more difficult as the train terrain becomes more complex. So, this is the basically, you can either nuke your cravings and not get the signaling anymore from your body to understand what's going on, or you can understand that the food system and the things that have been erected have been done so to hijack your own cravings, and then create intelligent systems to manage that, and go from there with Greg. Greg tried to initially create some degree of intelligence systems to allow him to maintain his physique, and his, his diet, and his health, and whatnot, through intermittent fasting, and certain training principles, and stuff like this, and it's actually slightly counter to his brand to say, here's all these lifestyle strategies that I, to like, get yourself an optimal health, and then turn around and say, oh yeah, I just take Tirzepatide, now don't worry, like you know, now we just take this drug to do it instead of this other way, so it's like the strategy from its fundamental standpoint has has changed significantly, even though it seems like a small thing, it's actually a reversal of what his initial strategy was, and then he's trying to frame it as a question of, oh well, high IQ people, they learn new things and do new things, it's like, yes, but high IQ people actually understand what your fundamental strategy is, and did you just change that fundamental strategy, and then try to gaslight your audience about it, so that those are the separate things I would focus on, and he, his entire, like, I don't know, the principles behind his strategy just shifted now, which is appetite, it's not, oh, if you truncate your eating window and you eat these certain foods and you train this certain way, you do these certain lifestyle things, I get this outcome now. It's I take this medication, and then I don't have to worry about any of that type of stuff, and that's I think where what probably why he's getting pushed back, because the audience base that he initially resonated with were looking for non refer solutions that weren't that you have people that are looking, they want to know what the fundamental issue is, and they want to create strategies to manage it. They don't just want to take a drug to nuke their, their cravings and not have to deal with it anymore. That would be my assessment, right? I don't know all of his audience members, but it, he seems like he made this video because people weren't happy that he was starting to take a tide, that's what it seems like, and I can't, and this is why I would assume that that they were a little bit unhappy. It would make me unhappy if I was following this person and I relied on them for information, and then they like made a like a philosophical switch. Like this is pretty significant,

Jay Feldman  42:31  
and he's getting a lot of that hate in the comments, and posting more and more videos about this again, trying to like again having this condescending view of people who are pointing out exactly what you're mentioning, Mike, and trying to dismiss it again, like you hear it a lot in that last line. It's like, just do it and move on with your life. Like, stop pestering me with, with your legitimate criticisms of, you know, and pointing out the dramatic change in my, in my perspectives on, on how to like whether or not you can be healthy within our modern environment without drugs and everything. Yeah, it's, it's pretty crazy to see. I'm glad you talked so much, Mike, about the like the fact that the cravings and hunger aren't the problem. The fact that this food noise, which he's used that same phrasing as well, is not actually the problem again, there's this phrasing as if it's like there's this either innate aspect of our physiology that is broken, considering the modern world, or that it's something that just certain people are dealing with, as if it's not a direct normal physiological response to the environment around us, and you were talking to Mike a lot about the hyper palatability and the food industry, and those things are definitely legitimate concerns, but also there's the dieting itself, and the goals here, like the goal of maintaining extremely low body fat percentages that potentially require either really intense strategies or going beyond a level of health, especially when they're, you know, micros is retail being a great example, like of a combination of having extreme goals that I think are not healthy at all, like I think that they're culturally induced goals that require, you know, unhealthy levels of body fat, and that coupled with bad strategies to begin with, like, look at what his diet is, you know, and the levers that he's trying to pull, and then the solution being, oh, well, I just had this food noise, it wasn't anything that was like, like, wrong with me, it was just normal, and so that's why I had to take this medication, and you're seeing the same thing here, it's, you know, it's like chronically relying on calorie restriction and intermittent fasting and obviously other aspects of the lifestyle and diet that aren't ideal, and then instead, yeah, and then instead of being able to see that there are inherent problems with those things, and that the food noise, quote unquote, and the cravings and hunger are actually a sign of that, it's looking at those as the problem and. Using a pharmaceutical to try to quiet them, you know, a very parallel example, as well, is like someone who's dealing with heartburn, and you tell them, just take a PPI, you know, don't think too much about it, just take the PPI and move on with your life, right? So that you're not dealing with chronic heartburn, don't worry if there's, there's no other effects, all it does is it just lowers the stomach acid, just fixes the problem that was the problem. So, take it and move on with your life and stop pestering me, like stop criticizing me for using it, so I can feel okay, you know. As opposed to considering, well, why are you having this issue in the first place? Why are you dealing with chronic heartburn or reflux? What's going on with the lower esophageal sphincter? What's going on with your stomach acid, all of that, and then also, what are the potential consequences of using something that lowers your stomach acid? Is it going to lead to nutrient deficiencies? Is it going to lead to bacterial overgrowth? Is it going to lead to various other digestive symptoms? And I don't know why, like I would assume, I don't know, Greg, but I would assume that if you had the conversation about PPIs for heartburn, he would kind of be on the same page, but then when it comes to the, like, you know, a GLP one drug for body composition, that's a totally different, totally different conversation, and I feel like the disconnect has to come from that deep physiological pain, you know, of the restriction, because I can't imagine what else could cause somebody to,

Mike Fave  46:22  
well, it's probably harder for him too, right? Because his image is centered around him being lean all year round, like that's his marketing, his branding, so he has to maintain that physique, and he has to maintain like that particular look, whatnot. And so it's like, I'm sure you take Trizepatite, so he's like chronically hungry, and then it's like somebody gave him a shot at his appetite, and he was like, what, I now I can look like this and still do all the stuff I was doing, and now I don't have to feel it anymore, and it's like, for him, it's probably like great, right? It like removes this pressure off him that he's had for however long he's maintained keto body,

Jay Feldman  47:01  
right? Well, and the worst part of all that is, it's, and I'm sure, like, not to blame him, because I think he is, from the beginning, I'm sure, fallen prey to all of the like cultural influences that have made him think that it's, you know, he needs to maintain the super low percentage of body fat and all of that, but then the worst part is he has encouraged that in other people, right, he's walking around as this like fitness poster child, you know, of look at what your body composition can be if you just, if you just do the right dietary things and creating the same potential body dysmorphia on other people and really unhealthy goals. And then now you're just like furthering this cycle that now is gonna all these other people are gonna be like, oh, well, Greg needed this drug to maintain his body composition levels, and he's not acknowledging that there's any problem with that, or any problem with having goals like that, and and then now they're, you know, it's furthering that same cycle, I mean, it's much like Liver King, too, right, he had, you know, and this became really obvious, not only because of the everything that came out about his PED use, like all of his anabolic steroid use and everything, but also in those emails where he's talking about, like, his lower back fat, when, which he had this with Mike Israetel too, but he had this with Liver King, where I mean he was incredibly lean and muscular, and he's wanting to get on gear because of his supposed lower back fat, and then he's on the other side saying just follow my primal tendons and you can be like me and encouraging the body image issues that he's dealing with in the first place and he's encouraging that in all of his huge audience especially young people and every and everything that put him in the position where he needed to use medications to get on that point, you know, medication, drugs, whatever, to get to that point, and that he's dealing with all these mental health issues, as like that's directly in, in conjunction with that, I see the same thing here, and

Mike Fave  48:51  
and then implying that liver, like just taking liver, you get like yoked, it's like you just take liver, like that was the implication of the message there, right. And same thing with Greg, is like it, the implication in the marketing is you, if you intermittent fast and you follow his like reverse pyramid training style, like you'll do one arm pull-ups and like you'll like have attractive girls around you and drive nice cars and like have a six pack year round, like that's the implied in messaging in the different marketing, and then it's like you have these, but these guys are like struggling behind the scenes with like this, these other specific things, right? So then that doesn't come through, and I think that's a part of the part of the issue.

Theresa Piela  49:35  
Yeah, good reminder with all these influencers, you never really know what what they're dealing with, and you know it's, it's, we're not getting like a clear signal from them, it's it's gonna be warp, we're all human, but there's, yeah, there's some murkiness to this,

Jay Feldman  49:51  
yeah, I mean, the more influencers are gotten to know, and people in the industry, like big people in the industry, and knowing the behind the scenes thing, I mean, it's I. The norm is that people are struggling mentally and physically. It's not like a dig at them either. They end up in really tough positions, and they get stuck in their own vicious circles, but it tends like just painting with a broad brush. A lot of these people who are trying to maintain really lean physiques, they're cutting carbs and they're cutting calories, they're doing fasting, and all of that, and and then they, in various, you know, some are using like different drugs, medications, whatever, and they're feeling really bad, and then maybe they start adding in carbs, or they start, like, you know, changing things behind the scenes, but it's rampant, it's, it's pretty crazy,

Mike Fave  50:40  
I think one thing that I want to touch on here that's important is I actually want to talk about what, so we have these standards of what men and women should look like, but what are the actual standards that we should be shooting for to feel well, function well, and for health. There's quite a few women who I work with, who they're like, yeah, I want to be less than 20% body fat. I'm just like, why you want, do you enjoy your cycle? Like, do you want to have your cycle? Do you, do you, you know, do you want to, you know, feel well? Do you want to function well? Do you want to sleep at night? Because, like, you can get there a lot, and some women will naturally be leaner than others, that's completely fair, and some guys will naturally be leaner than others, like there's definite variance, but at the same time we like the some of the standards that are currently set in are not reasonable for like in terms of if you have kids, if you have a job, if you're trying to exercise on top of doing that stuff, if you have external pressures and stressors, the going to those limits is just adding to that toll, it just putting more, it's making the system less resilient long term, because you're basically running your body fat stores while too high is a problem, too low is basically running the bank account on empty, it's hand to mouth, whatever food's coming in is what's going out, so it's more about finding like there's a Goldilocks zone for guys, somewhere between 10 to, you know, 10% is pretty low for body fat, but 10 to 20% like that's a good range to be in. You start going over 2520 to 25 you start going over there, depending on the guy, you start seeing impacts on the on metabolic function, and that's where you start to say, okay, I'm over a certain level, and, well, you know, where's the point where I start to see changes in my insulin sensitivity, in terms of my lipid metabolism, and stuff like this. And then, for women, you know, 20% is pretty low, is probably the bottom end, up to 30% maybe a little bit more, like those are appropriate ranges for body fat percentage, at least from some of the research, and at least from some of the lab values for women, you start pushing over 35 you start to run into some problems, potentially metabolically, depending on the woman, and you start going below that 20% mark, and you start running into issues on the other side with hormonal regulation, mood, sleep, etc. So the goal is like, where's that optimal range for me? Those are the ranges that I'm typically looking to get people between, because that's where they feel well, they function well, and their metabolic markers look what look good, and they can sustain it. You're going to go down to 10% or less than 20% 10% as a man or less than 20% as a woman. You know, look, you'll look good, you'll hold it for a little while, and then it's not going to hold anymore, and or, and you'll run into problems and side effects and stuff like this, and most of the people who are hitting these values, hitting these targets, like fitness models and whatnot, they are, they are dieting down specifically for those photos, taking a bunch of those photos all at one time, and then distributing them across however long, it's not like they're maintaining this all year round, maybe some people are, maybe Greg O'Gallagher is, but a large proportion of them are like dieting down to get into photo shoot shape, and then they're moving back up to a higher percentage the rest of the time, because it's not sustainable to be in that area, and anybody who's stepping on stage for bodybuilding will tell you, I've had multiple clients who were bodybuilders, that it's a very difficult experience prepping to those levels of body fat. It's a very negative impact on hormones, and so I think it's just it's important that people understand that that the standards that are set for magazines and for whatnot, they are extremes, and they will come at a cost. I'm not saying that this is not to then go the whole opposite end for the body positivity stuff, where your body fat and whatnot doesn't matter, because it definitely does in the top end as well, but what I'm saying is the low ends that we have are both of these things are very extreme, they're way too far off the map from an objective standpoint, not even from a judgment standpoint, from a pure metabolic health standpoint. So the goal is to get into an optimal range that allows you to feel well, function well, that you can sustain, and that also it doesn't necessarily, that also like makes your or has your lab values and your metabolic markers in a good place as well. We want all of these things to be working together, mirroring each other. From a health perspective, you don't care about your health, you know that's your choice. You, you prioritize something else, but from a health standpoint, that's at least for me, that's what I'm. Looking for is function lab value sustainability, and go from there, and you set up a system to maintain that.

Theresa Piela  55:08  
I think at a certain point esthetic follows that, right? If someone's feeling really good and they're living their life in a way that feels balanced and good, they glow differently, they show up differently, they speak differently, they think differently versus someone who's under a significant, significant amount of stress, because they're under eating and on certain drugs, you know, it's a very different quality that the

Mike Fave  55:30  
research supports that too. So, though they've done studies, they're obviously semi-subjective, but they've had men and women rate each other in terms of like level of attractiveness, body shape, stuff like this, and the standardized norms for attractiveness for men and women are not, don't match the actual like media propagandized, distributed norms, so the media norm for men is like extremely muscular, very lean, and then the media norm for women could be like either there's like different norms now depending on what, where you're looking, but in the past it was like very thin, and so like the these extremes actually most people fell actually more towards the middle where they didn't want men who were excessively muscular nor excessively lean and then men didn't want women excessively lean, so the, you know, you get sold one thing, but then when you actually look at the what people are shooting for, it's actually a bit, a bit different, at least from some of the papers that I've looked at on this.

Jay Feldman  56:31  
Yeah, I think that one of the things that happens naturally as you start to improve your health in a real way, again, not talking, how about like going on a medication, and you lost weight, and so that supposedly improved your health. We're not talking like you, you know, did some fasting, and you know, but when we're talking about, like, legitimately improving your health, improving your metabolic state, and feeling the difference, like feeling the energy, feeling sleeping through the night, feeling the better mood, feeling the resilience to stress, feeling the the like happiness, the lightness, you know, the improvement digestion wise, the improvement in libido, like when those start things start to come on, I think naturally the body composition obsession starts to fall by the wayside a little bit, like I hear that a lot, where it's not like we can't still have goals or something there, but we're somebody's like, you know, I feel when I feel this good, I'm there's.. I'm not going back, right? I'm not going back to the severe calorie restriction and over exercising and all of that, like I'm still like I want to be healthy and everything, but I think the it kind of follows in a natural way versus when you're stuck in that place, you're stuck in that restriction. There's this natural obsession with, you know, like hyper focus on on body composition, and and this food obsession. And so I think that I mean, that's just something I see a lot, and it kind of ends up being a perpetuating cycle until you get out of it, and yeah, I think that kind of re thinking what we consider to be healthy is important, being really careful about the the images we're seeing, which, you know, as you said, Mike, it's kind of everywhere in the media, like the what we're being shown as as optimal is so far from what the research shows, but also far from what's, you know, physically optimal. And again, we've talked about this so many times, but not only talking about the big influencers, but just knowing, you know, having known people who looked physically on the outside so healthy, like, you know, other people see them and think that they're just the picture of health, and they're feeling terrible, and they're going to the bathroom once a week, and they have no libido, and they have no energy, and they're running on, you know, energy drinks and coffee, and you know, and you mentioned Mike, like someone like Greg, maybe is is at that point year round, and other people aren't, but it's like, look at the cost of that, you know, look at what he's doing to maintain this, what seems like, you know, unhealthy state for him. So, yeah, I think it's a tough one to kind of unlearn, and what I found is that normally it happens as a byproduct of feeling really good, as opposed to being something that we can like intentionally manipulate, but, but yeah, and I know, for you know, we talked about our stories in the past, Mike, like in detail, and I know for me kind of letting go of the body composition obsession was a natural response of feeling really good, eating more, and knowing that that was the right path, and it sorted itself out, and you get to a point where you feel good, and you maintain what's normally healthy body composition, and it's going to naturally fluctuate, and if you're, you know, maybe if you're really stressed and you're not sleeping as well, or there's various things going on in your life, maybe it comes up a little bit during that season, or or that moment. Minute, and then it sorts itself out, and, and getting to a point where you can allow that to happen, and like, not try to manipulate it, but just allow it to be an effective, of what's going on in your life, and not resisting it, you know, seeing your body composition going, going up, and saying, oh, well, I have to fast tomorrow, or I have to start cutting carbs this week, or have to eat a lot less, and I'll get a cheat, cheat meal in on the weekend. I mean, that's just a recipe for, for exactly what we're seeing here, and it's like no wonder the whole world wants to be on these GOP one drugs. But I hope that that doesn't happen.

Theresa Piela  1:00:37  
Me too, Jay. Well, to bring in some good news, Celtic Lady, Celtic Lady 482 81 I should say. She shared, "I don't really understand the science behind this, but I've been low carb for over 10 years. A month ago I started adding orange juice, fruit, sugar, rice, etc. and I feel great, so much more relaxed, and my carb fear has gone. Neither have I put on any weight, so kind of like what you guys were saying. There's there's another way to do this, and feeling good is probably an accurate signal from the body that you're moving in a direction that's going to be sustainably creating the health that you seek, the esthetic that you seek, the mindset and capability that you're seeking, not from a place of shoulds and restriction and rules and starving and feeling insane. Mike, do you have anything to comment on here?

Mike Fave  1:01:31  
No, I'm glad that she, I'm glad that she was able to take the jump. I think for a lot of people the hardest part is when you're on low carb and you're like vociferating on whether you're going to shift or not, and then you finally just do it, and then it's like, oh, okay, like this is not not that bad, because I think a lot of the decision to not do it is fear-based, and I think getting to a point where you can just say, okay, like, even if you don't believe or you're not sure, you need to see it with your own eyes, but you're interested, and you want to try it, you say, okay. Let me give it two weeks. Let me give it three weeks. Let's see what happens. We add some of the carb sources, and let me see how I do. So, I think it's a good, a good step that she did this, and I'm glad that it's going well for her. I would say, I guess the one thing that I'll mention, as like a early piece of advice, is when you transition from low carb into adding carbs on board, you have to like just keep an eye on how much butter and olive oil you still add to your food, because you can be like really high fat intake, really high carb intake simultaneously, and that can create some issues, not necessarily because you can't have carbs and fats at the same meal, but more so that you like will get a lot of substrate in general, I've seen people go into like huge surpluses of energy, which sometimes is helpful, but other times like it's not needed to be that much, and that can create some problems for people digestively, or weight, or blood glucose, or whatever the deal is. So, just keep in mind that as you're starting to add in carbs, that you're also like not for me. I, when I did it, I was dumping the olive oil upside down, the veggies, so the crown of making it easy on that can be helpful. Just keep, keep an eye on as you transition and go from there.

Theresa Piela  1:03:12  
What about you, Jay? Any, any feedback, any comments here?

Jay Feldman  1:03:17  
Well, no, I mean, I would echo what Mike said, I'm glad she kind of took the leap a little bit, and yeah, it's okay to not understand the depth of the science, but hopefully at least something that comes across, because you know when you're learning about a new perspective, it's all going to be a little bit new, but hopefully it at least transitioned to something that kind of was understood as something that was logical and made sense in terms of you know like the kind of basic physiology we can understand, and you know, I think obviously, if we're, I think one of the biggest things too is trying to look at how we're feeling objectively, and if you've been doing low carb or fasting or something, really try to take stock of how you feel. How's your sleep? How's your digestion? How's your libido? How's your mood? And recognizing also I think everyone's first reflex is, well, it can't be the diet, like I know the diet is the answer, like I know I'm in the right place there, I know it's not the fasting, there's no way that can be bad, because I've, you know, been told by these influencers that it's good, so it has to be all these other things, but hopefully, you know, the information we're providing gets people a little bit more open to considering that maybe those interventions that they're doing in the name of health might not be all supporting their health in the way that they thought, and so hopefully it gives them the courage to, you know, do some of these tests and see how they feel, and again, it doesn't have to be a permanent thing as well, if you're really having a lot of that fear of the carbs, and if you add in some orange juice, and you know, fruit, sugar, and rice, and you're feeling terrible. I mean, that's information as well. You know, we talk, we've done a couple of episodes and talked a lot about the kind of transition from low carb and things to be careful of, because you know, there's been examples of people who have, you know, added in a lot of. Harder to digest fruits, you know, high FODMAP fruits, and then they get bloating and joint pain, and they say, "Oh, well, it's the carbs. So we want to be careful with those kinds of things and make sure we're experimenting in an intelligent way, but in either case, making sure we're, we're taking stock of our rad, and, and giving, you know, giving it a try, I think, is always good first step. So,

Theresa Piela  1:05:20  
yeah, I think her comment also points out that you can do something for so long, and then that wise signal from the body kicks in and says, okay, something's quite, quite not quite balanced here. So proud of her for facing that fear, because there is so much fear mongering. I hear it all the time, sugar is toxic from friends, from siblings, from family members, and I just, I'm, you know, spooning my maple and my, my applesauce, and just smiling and enjoying the benefits of that, but it's, yeah, it's good to know that you, you can listen to your body, and it's not, I don't think it's trying to lead you astray, and it's more so the culture that's trying to lead people astray by keeping them in fear and telling them lies, but do we have time for a Q and A? Are we going to save this one?

Jay Feldman  1:06:07  
I think we should save

Theresa Piela  1:06:08  
it. Okay, well, we come back to this one. Mike, where can people find you?

Mike Fave  1:06:15  
They can find me at my website, Mike fabe.com as well as my YouTube channel, Mike Babe,

Theresa Piela  1:06:21  
awesome. Jay, what about you?

Jay Feldman  1:06:23  
My website is jfeldman wellness.com Tons of free resources there, and then on social media, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook at JF Wellness.

Theresa Piela  1:06:32  
Awesome, you can find me at Living Roots Wellness, Living Roots wellness.com and also on Tapping with T. Thanks for tuning in, everyone. We'll see you on the next episode, where hopefully we get to all of the questions and answer as many as we can,

Unknown Speaker  1:06:46  
I