Jay Feldman  0:00  
You have low energy. You have hair loss. You have, you know, your nails are growing slower. You're holding on to body fat. You have low body temperature, and it's either a these are normal for someone your age. This is just what happens to your physiology, or this is all just due to this hypothyroidism that you have. It was probably genetic.

Mike Fave  0:20  
People are talking about like, oh, I'm gonna sauna, I'm gonna cold punch, I'm gonna fast, I'm gonna do this type of stuff. And Ray like had this perspective: we can maintain ourselves, and it's not by destroying ourselves and breaking ourselves down.

Jay Feldman  0:32  
In the process of just trying to cut out all the calories so that you lose weight, not only are you done regulating your metabolic rate, but also you're going to lose lean mass in the process. You're going to lose muscle mass, and that has all sorts of downstream negative consequences. When you're already in this downregulated metabolic state, the last thing you then want to do is just cut calories and and be fasting and add exercise because your body's already starving and holding on to body fat as a response to that.

Theresa Piela  0:58  
All right, welcome to the Bioenergetic View. I'm your host Teresa Piella, joined as always by Jay Feldman and Mike Fave. Today, I'm really excited about today because I never get sick of Ray Pete clips, and it's been a while. And that's what we're doing. We're going to be playing some of the best. Ray Pete's view of hypothyroidism as a response to stress, the value of eating food you enjoy, whether stress is beneficial or toxic, the physiological damage from routine and meaninglessness. Let's get started from around the internet. These clips, oh man, oh this is such a throwback because I think all of us can relate that so much of our initial dip in our toes in, so to speak, we're starting to listen to Ray's interviews, read his articles, and I think there's a lot of people out there, and hopefully a lot of people listening that have taken some time to dig into these because they're total nuggets of gold, and we can dive into this one from 1996. Here we go.

Dr Ray Peat  2:06  
When a person is under stress, the thyroid adaptively goes down. It's like a hibernation process. The that's one adaptation that works if an animal is starving, for example, in the winter. If its metabolism slows down, its heart rate slows, and its body temperature drops, it can last through the winter without eating up its fat too fast. Or if it's in a famine situation or a migration, if the thyroid slows down during starvation or prolonged activity, as in migrating, you can go farther on a given amount of stored energy. When people go on extreme diets trying to lose weight, they lose maybe a pound or so the first day, but then they stop losing weight if if they're eating much less than 1000 calories. Or on a total fast, they will lose nothing but muscle after the first day. That's because after about 12 to 24 hours, your liver has depleted its sugar stores, and at that point, it starts turning your muscles and other tissues to sugar, and that would destroy your body very quickly. So the thyroid adapts down under stress, and so the worse the stress is, or the more prolonged, the lower your thyroid gets, and that means that with aging, you tend to have accumulated so many stresses that your thyroid gets chronically depressed, and unless you give it the right signals to bring it back. It just stays there and gets lower and lower.

Theresa Piela  4:07  
It's good to hear his voice. I used to fall asleep to these cliffs, and maybe I'll start doing that again. Mike, I wanna I wanna open up the floor for you to to touch on what he's saying here because I I know you guys have talked in depth about thyroid function and everything. I mean, everything we're talking about in terms of stress and the impact it has on the body ties into what it does to these essential glands and how they're helping our body either stay in a regenerative state or in a more damaging breakdown state. So, I mean, even just jumping back in, where do you want to start here? With with, I mean, Ray said a lot, but where do you want to start with the thyroid function and how important that

Mike Fave  4:52  
is? I think the beauty of Dr. Pete's work is that he put the picture together in a way that you actually understand how the. Different systems work in concert together instead, and how they work in different contexts instead of just this like very mechanistic siloed understanding of thyroid. So he would talk about he's saying here basically in states where you have stress and divine stress in a multiple. There's like multiple different ways. Like if you're not eating enough, right, or there's it, there's an external physiologic stress, you have downregulation of thyroid function, and so you you get to see this as big the general picture. If I have high amount of stress, and I guess we'll define stress here too, which I don't think Ray directed in this clip, but when you have high amount of stress, so it's either basically a lack of energy, whether that's an increased demand or a lack of supply, then the body starts to downregulate thyroid function. So the question is, like, then why would you downregulate thyroid function? And when you start to, when you more you listen to Ray and the more you kind of understand the framework, the thyroid is controlling metabolic rate. The thyroid is controlling energy output at the cells and at the tissues, and so what winds up happening is if you have this excessive demand or this this lack of supply, you're not going to try to broad stroke across the body, increase the thyroid function, increase energy production across all the cells and tissues because you're under this stress, you're under this pressure, you don't have adequate energy. So Ray creates this this nice. It's like a-it's a whole worldview, a whole quilt, understanding these different systems and putting them together, and then you can get into the weeds after that. But it's the the thyroid pathway TSH to to t4 and t3 to reverse t3 and the deionase enzymes like that sits now within this overarching map of okay, what does thyroid do in general, and how do these different things impact thyroid? And you can see how that stuff impacts the conversion of thyroid hormones and why they would do the things that they do in these different contexts. So it, I think, Ray's framework and these this perspective for me allowed me less to like memorize pathways and understand these discrete mechanisms, but to understand why these things happen the way that they do, why is this thing switching in this way, and then also trying to look to figure out the why. And I think once you understand the why and you're working from a framework perspective and a framework model, it allows you to actually really make changes and help people get better because you, when you're understanding the why and how the pieces move, then you know okay, where do I have to go in in this person's context? Knowing this map, using this map, what are the areas that I have to push to make a difference for them to get an outcome? Why is their thyroid low? And before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about some of the thyroids up in the pro metabolic sphere, and just as an example, one of the things I brought up is you know before if I have somebody come into me and they're coming from a low carb state, right? Under eating, maybe lack of carbohydrates in general, their lack of carbohydrates maybe under eating on top of that, maybe fasting going on, and then I get there looking at their labs, their TSH isn't super high, but reverse T3 is high, free T3 is low. TSH and T4 are fine. So we're looking at the thyroid pathway there. The thing is, like, do I give them thyroid? Like, do they get thyroid because these values are low? No, I don't think that that's the like the first thought isn't oh this person needs thyroid because you have this map. The first thought is they don't have enough energy availability. They don't have enough carbohydrates on board. They don't have adequate insulin signaling, so the liver is going to lower the the free T3 and then bump up the reverse T3, and then the thyroid axis, the brain is going to shut down because the body's saying, "Hey, like we're not going to try to bump metabolism now.

And so then it's like, okay, let's bring the signaling back to bring enough substrate to bring enough energy on board so that the body shifts that thyroid balance. The insulin signal comes back at the liver, and it starts to say the insulin signaling as well. In this context, hey, we have a we have fuel coming in, we're in a better spot. Like we're not in the starvation mode anymore. So Ray's work and the model that he provides with this and these clips that he's that people have shown to him talking through these things, he's just he's giving you the the map. He's like he's built the map out, and then now it's like wow, this is amazing. Like we have this map, and then now you can get into the you know you're refining the map as you go through, and you're understanding the whole model. So for me, when I listen to these clips, is a throwback to oh that's why, that's why thyroid decreases on low carb. It makes so much sense. That's why this is why cortisol is increasing. This is why glucagon's increasing. So it becomes let because when you learn this stuff in school, right? Like when I was in when I was pre med, and then I went to nursing school, and even in NP school, like you learn the pathway, but it's unconnected to anything. There's no connection. There's no why does this happen in this context? How do these things change each other? What's the impact of this hormone on this hormonal system? What's the impact of that hormone on that hormonal system? What's the interplay? It's just this is the the pituitary sits in the brain, and then it has a signal to these glands, to these different hormones, and those glands make these different things. And here's what those hormones. Do, but it's like it's sterile. Each piece is its own thing, disconnected from each other, and you just like you just then you just thinking these these like sterile pathways, and you don't actually get to see an interconnected system that's adapting to its environment. So Ray's map allows you to see that he he's it gives you this vision, this 30,000 foot overview of the system, so that when you get somebody presented in front of you, like, okay, I see based on this context and based on where they're at, this is what's wrong. These are the pieces that we need to adjust. Here's how this is impacting that. What's the most important thing here? What's the most upstream upstream important thing here? What are the downstream factors after, and how do I shift those? And I want to. I guess this is one little tangent piece here. A lot of people will that when they talk bad about Ray's work or the things that he discusses, a lot of times they're talking about, oh well, Ray recommended the this and this, this little thing like milk and orange juice, whatever. That wasn't the beauty of Ray's work. That was Ray on calls and people ask him what do I eat when he knows nothing about them, and being like, okay, what's like a cheap option that's nutrient dense that that this person can reasonably get, and we'll give them a decent diet like milk and orange juice. Okay, but when you actually look, the beauty of Ray's stuff wasn't this like finite intervention he mentioned on this like on this this this interview or something, it's more what is his overarching picture of things, his his broad swath looking at these different systems and connecting them together.

Like for example, connecting how nitric oxide interplays with mitochondrial function and histamine and nitric oxide dealing with the intestine and how that impacts what's going on with mood and and and energy metabolism stuff like this like this connection and this grid this map this quilt these are the value for me for Ray's stuff and then some of the interventions that he put into place like for some people they'll be helpful for some people maybe they won't do as well with it but it's really the map it's not like the milk the orange juice and the stuff that he gets in social media condensed down to, and I think, and then people respond to that, and you hear people like in previous episodes talk about like talk about how Ray doesn't know this or that, and it's like you haven't listened to Ray; you've just listened to people who have taken some information from his podcast and popularized it in social media, and then like that's your understanding of him. But when you listen to this stuff, it's like wow, this is really, especially when you have never been exposed to it. It's pretty pretty profound. Like it's extremely helpful, especially if you're trying to help somebody recover from any type of health thing. It's the map is really great, at least for me.

Theresa Piela  12:41  
Yeah, well, I had the same reaction too. Finding his work, it felt like there. Yeah, the map is the perfect word. It's like there's this cohesive model. Everything is interdependent, and everything makes sense within that model. And I can't think of another person that has been able to do it in such a grounded way, you know, like Ray's not really sell like he's not selling anything. He's not even he wasn't pushing any ideology, just somehow was gifted with this masterpiece of a brain that could see things that we all needed to find in our healing journey because no one no one else had provided it, Jay. What about you? What what stands out from this clip?

Jay Feldman  13:25  
Well, just tagging on to what you guys are both saying. I mean, it's also worth noting this was 30 years ago, so now a lot of these ideas have kind of permeated, and so talking about how a low thyroid state is the result of chronic stress due to psychological stress or physiological stress might be an idea that some people are familiar with. I think a lot of people still aren't, but you know you didn't hear that from from other people until those ideas were really being permeated from Ray. If you're dealing with low energy symptoms like chronic cravings and hunger, low energy or fatigue, joint pain, weight gain, digestive symptoms, brain fog, poor sleep, hormonal imbalances, or various low energy chronic conditions like autoimmune conditions, insulin resistance, high blood pressure, hypothyroidism, or various other chronic health issues. Then head over to jfoldmanwellness.com/energy to sign up for the free energy balance mini course, where I'll walk you through the best diet, exercise, and lifestyle strategies to resolve these low energy symptoms and conditions. These strategies are all centered around how you can maximize your cellular energy. So again, to sign up for the free energy balance mini course, head over to jfeldmanwellness.com/energy and. it does add as you were saying, Mike, a lot of context. I remember when I was like first kind of learning about Ray. I had an endocrinology class in school because I was also pre med, and endocrinology was a a little. Bit more interesting because you did get some of the interplay between the different hormones, and if you had that broader context, you could start to put some of those pieces together. But none of it was framed that way. But like it was all individual pathways that had no real, like they they weren't consequences of specific environmental inputs. It was just, you know, this hormone affects this hormone affects this hormone, and this is like the downstream effect. But what we're getting here is a much more global idea that I think is really valuable for people because I, the mainstream perspective is still you're dealing with all these hypothyroid symptoms. You have low energy. You have hair loss. You have, you know, your nails are growing slower. You're holding on to body fat. You have low body temperature, and it's either a these are normal for someone your your age. This is just what happens to your physiology, or this is all just due to this hypothyroidism that you have. It was probably genetic, or it just kind of happened, but here's this levothyroxine, and and you know, look, after a couple months, your TSH came down, so you're fine. And the person's like, well, I'm not fine. I still feel the exact same way, and I'm still dealing with all these issues. And I think here there's there's such value in the way that Ray was able to to tie that picture together and help people to recognize that those symptoms are your body's normal response. Like these are the right response to the wrong inputs. You're supposed to have lower energy in a state like this. You're supposed to have like me losing your hair in a in a state like this because this is a state where your body doesn't have what it needs to be functioning optimally, and as a response to that, it's turned down its thyroid hormone, which is the way of turning down the metabolic rate, so that it can shift into more of a hibernation state and survive this period of time without adequate nutrition, without or like with excess stressors, and that totally Flips the approach afterward. It it totally changes the way that a people might think about these symptoms, and b the way that they're going to then go about trying to fix them. Right, recognizing that it's really important to get enough carbs and fats for adequate thyroid function and enough calories, and not to overdo it on exercise, and make sure we're getting enough sleep, and that we're covering our micronutrients, because all of those help to tell our body you're in a good situation, you're in a good state, and you can actually upregulate your metabolism now. And we can start regrowing our hair and nails, and we can start to let go of that body fat that we were holding onto because we were waiting for the next stressor.

You know, we're experiencing this famine, and in order to adapt and be ready for the next one. Let's hold on to some body fat. Like shifting out of that is again a normal response to providing the right inputs. So I think that that's really helpful, as opposed to again people thinking that their bodies are the problem or this is just some random effect and and providing some meaning to it. So yeah, I think that that's all really valuable. You know, he mentioned the he was talking a bit about the muscle loss and lean mass loss with extreme low-calorie diets and fasting, and I think there's a part there that's really worth sharing, which is that in the process of just trying to cut out all the calories so that you lose weight, not only are you downregulating your metabolic rate, but also you're going to lose lean mass in the process. You're going to lose muscle mass, and that has all sorts of downstream negative consequences. So I think that is worth sharing. He made it sound as though after like the first pound, all of the rest of the weight you would lose would be lean mass, and I think he was maybe using that just as kind of a way to emphasize the loss of lean mass, because your body needs glucose, if you're not providing it, it's going to break down its muscles and other protein sources to get that glucose. So there is some amount of that going on. Obviously, it's not like you would only be losing lean mass at that point. But but yeah, it's that's definitely an important thing to discuss when it comes to trying to lose weight. And I think the other piece too is when you're already in this downregulated metabolic state, the last thing you then want to do is just cut calories and and be fasting and add exercise because your body's already starving and holding on to body fat as a response to that. So I think that that's helpful to keep in mind. And then the last thing that he was touching on at the end there, did he start to dig into aging, or is that in the next clip? Did he mention aging and like accumulated stress? He did

Theresa Piela  19:29  
at the towards the end in terms of just that slowdown, like that being a quintessential part of aging. The thyroid function is just in conservation mode. Yep.

Jay Feldman  19:41  
Yeah, and and I I think that that's helpful too for adding some context to what aging is. Like aging is the accumulated stress over time that also goes along with the downregulation of the metabolic rate, and so that's also helpful when it comes to the idea of like reversing the aging process and supporting repair and regeneration. Generation, which he talks a little bit about in the next clip, if we're doing things to support our metabolic health, support the state of our thyroid, then I think like then that is the reversal of that process. The other thing that made me think of Mike, you were talking about how some of these ideas have been bastardized in different ways. You know, it's sometimes been distilled down to you just need to take thyroid hormone, or you just need to eat this. You know, the milk and orange juice or something. I think another important aspect that we're getting in this clip that's different from what you sometimes hear. I think people can overemphasize the thyroid out of context, where it's like this food is good for your thyroid, or this thing is good for your thyroid, and everything is thyroid centric, and I I think it's sometimes that can lead to like a hyper focus there instead of zooming out and recognizing the thyroid in the broader context of what the body is doing, and that the turning down of thyroid activity is directly intertwined with other like with what's going on in your gut, with what's going on at your liver, with what's going on in terms of your adrenal activity, and so I don't see it quite as much now. I think it was especially something that was more common earlier on, but almost like a hyper focus on the thyroid without that broader context. So, yeah,

Theresa Piela  21:18  
yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that was maybe one of the kind of stereotypes that I heard floating around about Ray that it's like he's too much focused on the thyroid. But I think it's flipped, right? It's it's the context. What's going on with the stress? What's going on with the body? Why why has the body accumulated so much stress, and why is it not recovering? Yeah, it's it's interesting to flip it around.

Mike Fave  21:42  
Yeah, I think that led to people too doing to take focusing so much on do I just take thyroid to fix all these problems instead of seeing as like I need to get the body in the right state by shifting a variety of these external circumstances to then have like to then try to get the thyroid their own thyroid to to be like hey like we can actually get hormone back online we can shift to active t3 we can increase the amounts like kind of kind of get the system humming in that way could you use thyroid if a could a person use thyroid if they needed help in that process or they're like like clearly hypothyroid of course but the general idea is the thyroid was like representative of energy metabolism and push like the body being a key signaling element of saying because the hormones are just signaling elements right they they go in and they and tell the cell to do a particular type of thing so the the thyroid status being a function of what is the body recognizing and saying hey like what what are we going to do here in terms of metabolic function what are we going to do here in terms of mitochondrial output like so. So obviously, you can have issues directly at the gland itself, like an autoimmune process, or not enough iodine, or something like this. But for a lot of people that are dealing with some of these issues, like from the fasting and and like extreme weight loss diets, I think it's less likely those for those things to be the cause, and more likely that the state is triggering this shift in thyroid, and I think that's what Dr. Pete was talking talking to there. The other thing I think that was helpful with Dr. Pete's framework is that actually gave people agency. So it was let because you go to the doctor a lot of times. I remember even learning in premed the found the first thing you start learning is genetics, the like how the cell replicates and how if there's genetic damage to this or that, or mutations, it's going to outcome. It creates an outcome downstream in terms of function, and then that a lot of problems were framed as a genetic problem, which basically completely removes or pulls the rug out on your own agency to be able to solve some of your health problems. And Doctor Pete's stuff actually is like, no, it's not like like he didn't completely eliminate genetics, but I think he he didn't put that much emphasis as genetics being the primary cause of everything. Whereas modern medicine was like very much genetics based, and it's it kind of followed an analogy of computers where the genetics was the code, and if there was something wrong with the code, that would lead to the problems downstream. And whereas Doctor Pete's stuff was no, it's more like what's going on in in the organism's environmental state, and how is this impacting everything, and what are all the areas that you can push in the that you have control over to actually get the system back into a better spot, whether it was diet, whether it was supplements, whether it's lifestyle things. You know, he's going to talk about this and some of the clips here, just like your your experience and and you know having like a purpose and stuff like this, how this shifts the organism. So he was thinking about all these things that we had under our control, and less of like, oh yeah, it's just your head. Just your thyroid's shot. You're just gonna have to take this this medication. I think that is another thing that was really it was a a huge undercurrent in Ray's work, and I think it was extremely, extremely helpful instead of because I the framework in the modern medical sphere is like, yeah, just is what it is. We're just gonna manage it, and I think Ray's stuff was more like, no, like we if we move these things and do this and do that, we can see a change in. This in the system,

Theresa Piela  25:02  
yeah, and I think he gave all of that all all of us that empowerment to start experimenting on our own, not in a reckless way, but learning to actually pay attention to our own bodies and see how they're responding. Not jumping straight to the thyroid, but supporting our bodies holistically. Yeah, let's dive into this second clip.

Dr Ray Peat  25:23  
When your thyroid is low, you don't store sugar efficiently, and so you you aren't very efficient about burning up your body slowly, but you aren't efficient at repairing it, and all you're doing is decaying at a slower rate when your thyroid is down. So what you want to do is stop the decay process and begin the repair process.

Theresa Piela  25:57  
I think we can all relate to decaying slowly when we were keto and low carb, mentally, emotionally, physically, everything. Jay, what stands out here? Just thinking of again putting that into context of slowly decaying breakdown versus in a state of repair and hopefully regenerating quickly, more of like that childlike state. We think of someone who's warm and energetic and creative and playful and excited to be alive versus someone who's maybe been keto for five years and you know they're feeling pretty flat. They're feeling pretty tired. How how do you want to take this?

Jay Feldman  26:41  
Yeah, I mean, I I think it's like a characterization of the surviving versus thriving. You know, it's like the kind of getting by at subsistence versus actually being able to reach potential, like reach reach your potential as an organism. And I think the the part here that, to me, really stands out that isn't talked about very much, is the use of energy for repairing and regeneration, and basically talking about this low thyroid state where you're you're not even able to maintain where you currently are. It's like that, you know, it's that slow breakdown, that slow decay, but because you've lowered the metabolic rate, you're not breaking down, you know, rapidly, you know, and that talking about it as like a protective mechanism, and but he talked about how as a result of that, not only you're not storing carbohydrates well, but you're also also not using them well. Your mitochondria aren't working well. You're not producing energy well, and so we're slowing. I mean, again, it's like slowing down the the breakdown process, but missing out on the possible constructive side, like the other side, which is if you have enough energy available, you can't repair, regenerate, and further complexify. And I think that's that's the goal, and it's. I think there's something kind of inspiring about you know when you're healthier, you're you're actually like building towards something, as opposed to the mainstream perspective, which is like it's all just decay and it's all breakdown, and their perspective of aging is like slowing down that process, like that being the goal, right? Just trying to slow down the the breakdown of everything, the atrophy, as opposed to the idea of of actual repair and regeneration, regeneration and building towards something. So I think it adds a little bit of that kind of like hopeful inspiration to the journey,

Theresa Piela  28:43  
absolutely, yeah, and and not just not becoming so jaded by this idea that we're just going to be managing. You know, I think you know a lot of our listeners have a lot of complicated health issues, and I think at a certain point it can feel really exhausting to constantly be managing symptoms, but the hope here is that there's also the possibility that with enough energy and time and skillful integration, the possibility of like you said, Jay, working towards something and actually having enough energy to experience life in a more vibrant way is absolutely a possibility. I know we've all felt that in our own way, which we couldn't have said when we were going through some of the harder times. Mike, what about you? What stands out here?

Mike Fave  29:34  
I think the I think what I the general idea that I don't think Ray directly touched upon it in this clip, but it underlies this clip is the idea of energy and structure being interrelated. So I I always go back to that. I always think about that, and it gives you like a central piece to try to optimize for. Like it brings it creates a a central theme that you're focusing around, which is mitochondrial energy production and the the body having enough energy to undergo. The processes it needs, and then there even being the potential that if you can create a state where you can generate enough energy, you can potentially rebuild the structure, which will allow you to to then create more energy and kind of heal the system and recover. And I also think it gives a perspective on. I think this one is quite important. It gives a perspective on the human body and what, like, it changes that perspective on what is going on with the aging process and things like this. I think there's a lot of, in at least in the U.S. there's a lot of this idea that you just get old and you and as you get old, like you just age, and that just is what it is. Like, and there's no nothing you can do about it, and I think when you listen to Ray, there's there's the idea that if I can do these certain things, I can maintain adequate energy production. I can minimize the blocks on the system in terms of blocking the flow of energy. I can minimize my my exposure to stress. I don't try to drive stress so heavily. I try to you know keep it in a good spot. Then I can actually prevent or stop this aging process, stop this chronic degradation process. So again, like it comes back to this perspective where it's like, okay, we have we have an ability here, we have an agency here to maintain our health, to maintain ourselves, to improve ourselves instead of having to accept this like this like degradatory entropy that that's inevitable for us, right? It's like no, you can actually do these things. And again, like this was way earlier on. This is now this is ingrained in parts of the different in parts of the different culture with a different health sphere. That like oh we should be able to maintain our health into a long period of time. But the way that it's done, Ray, is people are talking about like, oh, I'm gonna sauna, I'm gonna cold punch, I'm gonna fast, I'm gonna do this type of stuff. And Ray like had this perspective: we can maintain ourselves, and it's not by destroying ourselves and breaking ourselves down. It's about building ourselves up. It's about decreasing the amount of stress and pressure on the system and giving the system what it needs to develop, so it's like it's a it's like an anti-entropic approach to longevity and to health. Whereas the other ones are this, you know, if it doesn't kill you, makes it stronger hormetic perspective. And I'm gonna have to starve myself to live a long time. And there's gonna be this like these significant trade-offs where you know I'm gonna have to feel bad, and then that'll help me like live longer and raise stuff. Was like no part of living longer, part of preventing the decay of your system is feeling good, is eating well, is taking care of yourself, is sleeping well. These types of things. I think it's it's there's a lot of things wrapped into that, but it it was now obviously it's permeating a bit more. But when he was first saying this, like this was I think unheard of. Like people were not talking about things this way. I mean, for me, I think it was a big change in my perspective because it was. I remember when we were doing keto and low carb stuff. It was it was this element of like hormesis was the focus. You know, I have to do all these things to, to like, keep my system on its toes. Like, I have to do all these hormetic things to make sure that the system is. I'm going to be creating this response to the system, and it was for me. It was beating me down.

The fasting, the exercise, the the lack of carbohydrates, the lower calorie eating. Like, it was it was degrading me, and there's a point where it crushed me. And then, like Dr. Pete's stuff, when you start doing it, it's like, oh, this actually brought me back from the brink. Like this, this change in perspective is what helped to bring me back out of this other mindset that I was functioning, this other frame that I was functioning with. So it's like a completely different frame. That was a, and I think it's a very it's a very powerful frame, and I believe it's much more aligned with what we actually need than the other frames.

Theresa Piela  33:47  
Absolutely, and I think a lot of people that are in the other frames, and like you're talking about, Mike, like their mental state is abysmal, and Ray so beautifully in all of his work weaves that in like our state of euphoria and excitement and curiosity and play, and we'll get into later novelty and enriching environments has this direct feedback loop with how our our bodies can function and thrive. So I think that that flows right back into getting to the point where we have enough energy to repair and rebuild the structures, and then we actually have capacity to create from that place. And it's almost like I almost see it like this, like spiraling up. Like the more and more things start to organize, the more energy there is, the more potential you have to actually use that and hopefully do something meaningful in this lifetime, because with all the biohacking, you know what is the actual point to get to a point where you're just so shredded, and then what?

Mike Fave  34:50  
Well, I think you see the pinnacle of this already, right? You have on the flip side is like all of the Brian Johnson stuff, where you're like living to engage in all of these. Disparate interventions to try to eke out these longevity benefits of on these different metrics, right? So, like you you're creating this a variety of these different metrics. They're all some of them may be connected, but a lot of them seem to be siloed, and then you like engaging in multiple protocols across the board to try to like dial in these particular markers, and it and then there some of the things that you're doing is like I'm which I to be fair like he has changed this type of stuff at least from at least from what I know I don't really follow his stuff very closely but there was you know I'm gonna run this this low calorie diet thing to do the what. it called? Like this, basically the like a engage in like a rate of rate of living theory perspective. So the caloric restriction model, but then my hormones are kind of shot. So I'm gonna be on like TRT, and then I'm gonna I'm gonna be on thyroid hormone, and then I'm gonna. But then I like want a low body temperature and a low heart rate. So it's like there's like a bunch of these these things that it's like where's the through line in this model? So you have this idea of don't die, but like what is the unifying piece here that helps us to not die? And it's like I don't really know. I'm not. It's not really clear. It's like you have to do a bunch of these individual little little biohacks, and like that is the extreme of that perspective, and then Ray's perspective on is semi opposite to that. Like almost, it's not a true dichotomy, but it's just like a like a completely different model of there's purpose in life, there's engagement, there's you're you're looking for to support the system. You're not looking to break it down, and there there's internal consistency and coherence across the model, and on the other side, it's like no, it's just you just you got to do this thing and that thing and that thing. You're like you're just checking boxes to hit these these individual targets. So it's not, and again, this is not to say that it's things that he's doing that are like everything he's doing is wrong. It's more just it's an entirely different model. It's an entirely different setup, and for raise, it's like I think a lot of people find it intuitive because of its consistency. There's consistency across multiple spheres and perspectives, and there's a unifying principle. Whereas in the other piece, it's not clear what the actual unifying principle

Theresa Piela  37:18  
is. Yeah, it's like you were saying before. It's like just torture yourself with the hope of living longer, and then thinking about the time spent suffering and not actually creating or not feeling well enough to go beyond this hyper fixation on health. Because I remember in a different quote from Ray, he was talking about how the healthiest people are not focused on their health, and I know our listeners are probably, you know, desperate for some relief and really hoping to feel better, and that's kind of the key too, like getting to the point where you're not having to be so protocol based, and like you mentioned, like so locked into these hacks that you're not even living a life, because we weren't. If we weren't sick, we wouldn't be hyper focused on these things at all. The healthiest people are having fun. They're socially engaged. There's a sense of purpose and bringing, like you said, it's like a totally different framework than our silly Western model, Jay. Anything to add before we watch another of Ray's clips?

Jay Feldman  38:28  
I've got some thoughts, but they'll dovetail in with with this clip.

Theresa Piela  38:31  
Yay! Okay, here we go.

Dr Ray Peat  38:35  
Yeah, and just eating what you consider to be the most delicious food can greatly help the intestine secrete more juices, so things digest faster and move along more smoothly.

Theresa Piela  38:54  
Bringing it back to enjoyment and trusting our instincts, Jay. Let's let's funnel in what you were going to say before into this,

Jay Feldman  39:02  
yeah. So I mean, he's talking about here, you know, the he's he's talking about the benefit of eating food that you enjoy for digestion, and I think there's something to be said for that too. But there are a number of other clips and other times where Ray has just talked about the value of enjoying your food, and as we'll talk about in a minute, you know the value of novel experiences and joy and all of that, and there were some other clips I you know considered including here that maybe we'll talk about in the future about him talking about his own favorite foods or what he likes to eat, and I think a lot of people found some of that surprising, and it was very different from what you would hear from like an average, like health influencer who's like you know I haven't had pizza in 15 years or you know I would never eat like I would never drink like Coke or something like like that. Whereas Ray talked about like his favorite foods being and he talked about like grilled cheese, for example. Which, for someone who's got that hyper focus on food as just a means to some end, or hyper focus on health, like that would never even be like something they would think about. Even if it was a food they enjoyed, they would still like never even think about that. And and you were touching on this a little bit, Teresa, where it's where part of the goal is, you know for you to be able to feel good enough that you don't have to center your entire life and every aspect of it around what is optimally healthy and actually gaining some freedom there, which ends up being healthier anyway. Like there's actually value in eating the food you enjoy or having social experiences, even if it maybe interferes with your circadian rhythm a little bit, or you know something like that, and and so we're just getting like a little glimpse of that here, but it's something that I think Ray shared a lot throughout you know throughout his interviews and everything, just the the the value of the experience itself, the curiosity, the joy, the lack of routine that we'll talk about, and how much those things impact health. And also, I think that gave people a lot of freedom that they need. When right now, I think health can be really rigid, and again, the the t here is a place for that, especially when someone's really struggling, and when a deviation from their diet and eating a grilled cheese could throw them into an autoimmune flare, or would lead to like major digestive symptoms, and it might not be something that's worth it at this point in time, and that's all right. But I think the goal being to to move away from some of that rigidity and have flexibility and enjoyment and novelty, and so we're just getting yeah a little glimpse of that in this clip.

Theresa Piela  41:45  
Mike, do you enjoy your food?

Mike Fave  41:47  
Yes, I very much enjoy my food. Mike loves his ketchup. Yes, my ketchup on my chicken or my steak. I think I think that there's that this goes with multiple pieces. I think there's one piece that I want to touch on first with what Jay said. I think when you are and and I guess my frame gets skewed with this, right? Because a lot of people I'm working with are really not well, right? Most like you're not working. Most people aren't working with me unless they have a problem. Like they're not talking to me just because they want to have a nice chat. Like 99% of my client days, people really need help. So, in that circumstance, the like there's a period of time where like you have to have your stuff dialed in as an intervention phase to try to change course to get things back on track. And then after that, once things are kind of organized and dialed in, then you can go into a maintenance space. Because most times, what I've seen is people have like gone through a long, like I, because I I'll look through the whole history. So I want to know, I want to see your lab trends for years, and I want to see your previous history over time, like the diets you've tried and the medical stuff, and you can see like oh well this this conglomeration of events and things led to this particular outcome and then to to stop the process and then to reverse that process there's a lot of intervention that needs to take place it's not as like oh yep you just change your diet and that that's it like you're good to go like a lot more typically has to happen in these these these situations, but there's a couple things that are important to consider with that. You have your intervention phase, but then you have your maintenance phase, and in your maintenance phase, you don't. The goal is not really to have this setup that you can't really maintain or you don't enjoy. A lot of times, I'll be talking with clients and building out diets with them, and we'll be on the call. We'll be looking and like, so what do you you know what do you typically eat for breakfast? What do you like to eat for breakfast? And what can you reasonably eat for breakfast on a regular basis? And I'm like, well, you know, just tell me because I'll do whatever I have to do. And it's like I understand, but you also have to like it because if you don't like it, you're not going to do it long term, and the goal here is not really to just like set something up that you're gonna do for a month or two months or a couple months, and you get better and you don't do it anymore. The goal is whatever we set up is we're helping you to build out a system for yourself that you can ultimately set on autopilot to allow your and that you enjoy, so that you can maintain your health going forward and carry this process forward, and I think the enjoyment piece of the the stuff and being able to easily implement the stuff is extremely important. We don't want to be creating systems or processes or lifestyles that are just a drag. That and even people will ask me too, like, what happens if I don't eat my like my my example set up on Friday night when I go out with my husband or my wife, it's like nothing, nothing happens. You know what happens? Maybe tomorrow, if you had too many glasses of wine, like you had two glasses of wine, and usually you don't do well with wine because you have digestive issues. Maybe you have a headache, but otherwise, like. You gotta in this process. It needs to be sustainable. It need there needs to be enjoyment in the process. You need to live your life, and I think sometimes people within the health with with all the health stuff, they're waiting to live their life until they get better. Yes, and I think you need to live your life while you get better. You need to be in the process of actually living your life, don't put any, don't like stop doing all the things.

Don't check out to because I mean I almost did this a couple times where I was like, and if I once I get to this point, then I'll do these things, and it winds up being a trap, and that includes like even the dietary setup. Is there a point in time where it's helpful? Like say you don't do well with I don't know gluten or dairy to adjust those things out of the diet to for whatever reason yes but does that mean that the diet then has to be this like hyper restrictive you can only have steak and and like these two fruits type of thing no like nine times out of 10 that's really not the case maybe somebody's transitioning with severe issues out of carnivore, and they're trying to add new foods on. Maybe that happens, but the goal is to get to a place again that's sustainable. You feel good on it, and then you also do enjoy your setup. So, Teresa, when you ask me, do I enjoy what I eat? Yes. It would somebody else enjoy my full setup? I don't know. Maybe not. But like for me, I look forward to the things that I eat on a regular basis, and I yeah, it's it's something that I can do long term, and it's pretty easy for me to run. They like mac nuts and chocolate. I just I love them; they taste good. And I grab them, and I'm like, I'm ready to go. Like I have my mac nuts and chocolate right here after the after the podcast because I'm looking forward to eating it, so you, I think it's it is important, and I do think there is something to be said for enjoying your food. It does, it can make a difference on the GI track for people to actually have enjoyment and a desire to eat. And I also think another thing that Ray talked about is the like having a desire to eat in general-that is a good sign that your appetite comes back. Usually, when I'm working with somebody who's come off intermittent fasting or very low-calorie dieting or something like this, I'm looking to see does their appetite come back, right? Because a lot of people that do the fasting will say, "Yeah, I don't really like breakfast. Not really hungry for breakfast. And then what it will do is like just have some fruit, just do some fruit for breakfast to start. Don't worry if like it's very light, and they're like, yeah, I could do fruit. That's not that hard. I don't have to cook anything, and it's pretty light. You give that like a couple weeks, and then they're like, oh, I kind of want breakfast now. If the appetite starts to come back, so these are those are signs I'm looking for. Is that the appetite comes back, especially because a lot of people I'm working with, you know, I'm on a call. Sent a call yesterday with a lady, and she's, I'm trying to like get her intake up. So her required intake across the day, we're looking just. I was like in looking in total energy requirement. It's like based on your body size, a rough estimate of where we want you to be is like at least 2000 calories a day, right? We want you to at least be there, and she's sitting there, and she's at like 1300, and I'm like, okay, just level with me. Let's just get to like 16, and then we'll figure it out from there. Like, let's just incrementally go up, see how you feel, and then go from there. And most times, what winds up happening is people will say, "I'm actually starting to kind of get hungry. You know, I was at 13. It's like now I'm at 16. Like I'm actually a little bit hungry for more. It's like yes, that's a good sign. That's what we want. We want you to have the desire and drive to eat more, to enjoy your food, etc. And this, you know, raise stuff ties in with us here and other things that he's talked about in previous times. Is like this desire to eat.

Theresa Piela  48:38  
I'm so glad you mentioned not waiting to live your life, or not waiting to heal, and then start living your life, and even just honoring the hormonal impact of that. Like if someone is having fun again and remembering that life can be enjoyable, that's not only going to improve their digestion. Everything that is impacted by either a high stress state or a low stress state is going to start to shift. So it's kind of a sneaky free way to feel better. Yes, like we've been talking about, things have to shift. It's not just dialing in diet. There's so many different aspects, but it's almost like a creative way of of choosing to live again and then starting to realize, okay, this actually speeds up the healing. It doesn't have to be so serious and such a, you know, another another struggle. So yeah, the enjoyment, and I'm so glad you have your Mac nuts and your chocolate ready to go.

Mike Fave  49:37  
Yes, if I eat them on the podcast, if Jay wasn't such a dictator about it, I would do it.

Theresa Piela  49:43  
You got to just turn off your microphone; it gets a little too crunchy.

Mike Fave  49:47  
I'm just joking. I'm just joking.

Theresa Piela  49:50  
Okay, let's watch this next clip from Ray. I miss Jodell's show. I don't know what happened to her, but I used to love listening to her show specifically for when. Ray was on. Let's see. Let's see what he says

Dr Ray Peat  50:04  
here. You've probably heard that hormesis is the idea: radiation hormesis or poison hormesis. That the little poison is good for you. That that is a perversion of of the idea of of stress. a teenager meeting a challenge, seeing, for example, a tennis game competition or swimming a certain distance, and so on, meeting a challenge that is interesting actually builds your body and abilities of having a goal to to build something, you develop your skills in doing it, so you are becoming more in in meeting that challenge. That is not a stress. A stress is something that a demand that's put on you that you didn't ask for, and that you don't have the ability to to do easily and and with pleasure. So when there when pleasure isn't involved in the action, it's probably going to be harmful to you in some way. So so just doing a boring and stupid job, many people spend their lives doing that is poisoning your tissues constantly because you're not getting pleasure out of out of the activity.

Theresa Piela  51:41  
So that clip, I feel like Ray says so much, and every single time I watch a clip of his, I always feel the need to watch it six or seven or eight more times because of how much he's able to pack in and how much he doesn't say, but he's alluding to. Jay, when you're thinking about-I mean, we've talked about this in different ways-but when you're thinking about people rising to a challenge and getting excited to meeting a challenge versus someone who's stuck in a job that they hate, they're feeling exhausted. They're feeling like all they have time for is survival. How do you even begin to approach that? Say they have significant health issues, and you know their mind doesn't feel great. Where do you even begin?

Jay Feldman  52:35  
Yeah, it's a good question, and one that's normally left out of like the health conversation. You know, we like there's this tendency in the field for it to be about this supplement or or this you know dietary change or something, but of course the mindset and experiences day to day have a huge impact on our health as well, and I'm sure we've all seen people who are very much stuck health wise, not because of something necessarily happening physically, but more metaphysically, you know, and in other areas of their lives. So I think it's a really important question. And for one, just shedding light on it, like shining some light on it, is an important first step in terms of recognizing how you know what he's describing at the end there. Something that you find boring, something like doing something you don't find meaning in is like comes at the cost of health. Like there's a like that is at odds with health. So I think that that's like the the first thing is just that recognition, and then there's with that sort of recognition, then we can have some intentionality there and figure out how we can find meaning in what we're already doing, or how we can add meaning to our lives. Or I think another aspect of it that Ray talked about a lot was curiosity, and there's a level of this that is you were saying, Teresa. Some of it is like kind of a byproduct of health. Like as you're healthier, you might naturally be more curious or more inclined to do something that you find joyful or meaningful, as opposed to like slipping into some sort of pattern. But there's a there can be a bit of a choice there too, where if you're choosing to use a lens of curiosity and and try to have novel experiences and try to see, like, question things that you might not have questioned before, or think about things in a way you didn't think about them before. I think that that can be somewhat of a antidote to like boring, meaningless routine.

Theresa Piela  54:43  
yeah. So I guess that's where maybe the the potency of changing our perspective can really have a health promoting effect, like finding that curiosity, finding ways to get excited, even if you're in a less than ideal and. Finding maybe something curious about the the situation to be to make it like Ray's describing like this is a challenging obstacle that I can get creative to overcome versus this totally unsolvable problem that someone's just stuck in and I think there is a lot of overlap with you know the health situations we fall into, and how it might feel like we can't even begin to figure out the rest. So if someone feels like they are stuck and they feel like maybe their health is taking up so much energy, and that's all they have the energy for. In a way, it simplifies it because there's no better place to begin than to start stabilizing your health, so that you then have more fuel, more spillover to then start creatively problem solving other aspects of life. So I think, I mean, Ray kind of embodied this in a lot of ways with his teaching, in that energy and structure is interdependent, and really just starting like with what what could possibly more be more important with than energy production. So I know a lot of our listeners have pretty serious chronic issues. Letting that be a focus, and knowing it's going to be temporary, so that you can then engage with the rest of life from a place where you don't feel like you're drowning all the time. That's my thought. But Mike, what what do you think when you when you listen to this clip from Ray? I

Mike Fave  56:35  
think Ray brings up an important point here, and it drives the distinction between like a top-down versus bottom-up approach, so bottom-up approach would be like trying to address all your diet, your micros, this type of stuff, and a top-down approach would be incorporating your perception of your experience and how you feel about the the the things that you have going on, the circumstances that you're dealing with, and how you're processing it. I think you actually you don't want to rely on one versus the other. You want to incorporate both. And I, for my own, from my own experience, the quote that I always think about is, "He who has a why can go through anyhow. And so, if you have a purpose and you have a direction that you're moving it through, then you can go through a lot of different circumstances that would tend to be considered difficult, or or you may have considered difficult, but you can see like okay, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. There's something that I'm working towards here, and then also a lot of times if you're looking to reach a certain particular area or or achieve something, or or even if you're transitioning through a dietary adjustment, a lot of times you there's you're going to have to go through some things that are uncomfortable, and so understanding that there's a purpose involved with it, and also reframing how you feel when you go through that process, changing your perception of it is extremely important. Even for when we were working the ICU during COVID, my wife and I, we were there. She was processing it differently than I was. So when she would go to when she would go to the hospital and we would work in the ICU, she was just like, I don't want to do this anymore. It's stressful. We're like working way too many hours, and then I had a vision in mind. I had a goal in mind. So while I was doing that, it was like, okay, I'm doing this for a reason. There's a specific timeline on this, and then once I move through this timeline, I'll have reached this particular spot that I wanted to get to, and so it didn't feel quite as stressful for me because I saw it as like I just need to get through this. I just need to do what I need to do here. And then also the other thing that was happening along the way is while I was working the ICU, the things I was learning in the IC were interesting to me, so I would go and engage with patients that were difficult or had certain things going on that I hadn't necessarily always seen before, so that I could learn about it. So the the process of like, oh, I'm going to learn something new here, and like, yes, I'm working a lot of hours, but there's this is for a particular purpose, allowed me to pull through and not be as stressed. So the the perception for me really changed the the challenge that I that I had in hand, and then on top of that, I was also making sure for both myself, my wife, that we had enough of our nutrients on the bottom. So our diet was dialed in, the house was stocked with good food, our our supplementation was dialed in, and then we took pressure off in other areas. We adjusted allostatic load, so I wasn't working out five days a week there. I was working out like two, and then she had stopped working out when she was stressed, and we had just more done some walks to make sure that she like still had some activity. So there's a lot of ways to adjust with the challenge. So Ray's quote here reminds me of these circumstances, and even reminds me of circumstances with clients where they feel like they feel like they don't know what the next step is, or they feel like they are in a helpless state. And it's and when you shift that frame, it's like, look, like this is where you're at right now. You have to accept it, right? You have to accept where you're at, and then you have to say, what do I need to do to get to this next place?

What's this next trajectory I'm I'm going to? What's the vision I'm working towards? And then that I think can help people pull through very difficult times. And then also the other thing, as I've looked back in my own experiences, going through the stuff that I've gone through was actually net beneficial long term. When I look back and I see the lessons I learned from it. So I wouldn't be able to help people today how I'm able to help people if I hadn't already gone through this stuff. So now when I go through different, different, difficult circumstances, I think, okay, like where's the lesson here? What? How can I bring this forward? And then that helps me to that helps me to manage my own stress around certain certain things, and it really changes my my mindset. And then the other thing that I tend to always think about that's super helpful for me is gratitude. So anytime I forget being grateful for where I am, what I've achieved, what I've gone through, and I start thinking about what I don't have, where I'm not at, then like that is where I trigger into like I get to create a kind of create some anxiety around it. So being grateful for where I am, what I've learned, what I've gone through, and then seeing that there's going to be lessons into that, and then knowing that I'm moving with purpose. Those three things a lot of times help me deal with really stressful circumstances. And I've also seen clients like reframing that stuff can be extremely helpful, especially I think one, especially if you start to create a vision for somebody, they have a vision of where they could be, and then it starts to make sense. Okay, like this is what I have to do. Now this doesn't justify like going through really terrible circumstances for whatever outcome. Like I don't sing to justify that, but a lot of times you get pushed into circumstances that you don't really have complete control over. So then, what you have to do is you have to okay, this is where I'm at. These are my circumstances, and I can I can adjust how I can respond. I can't change what happens to me, and it at like for me, a lot of times people ask me, "What do you think about this? What do you think about that? It's like I don't even care, and then like why? It's like because I can't control it. So if I can't control it and I can't adjust this particular thing, then I say like, what can I adjust? What can I actually change? What do I actually have control over? And then try to focus on those components. And so you can control your mindset. You can control your long-term vision. You can control the other areas of your life to try to deal with whatever the current circumstance is, and the other thing I would say is when when when you're going through these difficult times, when you're going through these difficult circumstances, it's normal to have like a like a strong emotional response up front. At least for me, I always find like if I get into a circumstance where I'm frustrated and I have a lot going on. Like I have that frustration, and maybe sometimes it's anger, maybe sometimes it's anxiety, sadness, and I just like let myself process it and deal with it. Because once it kind of clears, at least for me, and this may be specific how I process different things. When I clear that, then I get clarity. Now I can say, okay, what what is the strategy that I'm that I can put in place here. What like where can I go from this next step? And then I start to think, okay, what's a creative? What's the creative? How can I apply a creative process here to say, okay, this is where I'm at. This is where I need to be. Like you know, what's the course?

And so I think bringing all these things together can be quite helpful in difficult circumstances, whether Ray's example of like working a job that you hate, or which I've been there, or being in a circumstance where you have like really bad health and you don't know what the next step is, you don't know where to go, you don't know how to adjust. That's just it's the same process. For me, I've been in both places. I've been had really bad health at times from the surgeries, from this type of stuff, and I've also worked jobs I like knew I could I knew I couldn't work the rest of my life, and like had a sense of helplessness from that. Those are big principles and big strategies that I think of when I hear Ray talk about this.

Theresa Piela  1:03:58  
Mike, I love that you addressed all of these really helpful reframes that I think could be the difference between someone spiraling into more isolation, more hyperfixation, towards actually feeling empowered. Like you said, like okay, what's this obstacle here to teach me? What's the creative way through this? And I think no matter how stuck or trapped someone might be, especially in their health or life circumstance and job, if we can even bring in the littlest bit of curiosity and creativity, that alone, that mindset alone, is kind of the antithesis to the stress physiology that then keeps people more in this stuck state, and it was awesome to hear more about how that's played out in real time for you. And I think we Jay and I can both relate to that as well. Like when we are in a depleted, sicker state, our problem-solving abilities kind of match that. It's so much easier to become pessimistic. And hopeless versus learning to step into that. Okay, it has a self-promoting state, which then allows us to access these new levels of health while we're living our lives, while we're taking the next step. Kind of amazing to see how it's-it's you can't really separate any of this out, right? You know, it's the manner and the approach in which we're doing something-it's all tied in, and I mean that's that's so much of what Ray taught. So I'm just appreciating appreciating how you touched on that and and how Ray said it in his own way. It's just kind of amazing to to listen to. Jay, any anything to add in there?

Jay Feldman  1:05:42  
Yeah, a couple of quick points. I do want to try to get to that last Ray clip as well, but I mean, I think Mike, you touched on a number of really like valuable things to consider if someone is in this position. I think gratitude can be a huge one, and as you were saying, trying to find meaning in the end result, or that what you're experiencing now could be something that you really value in the future. That that experience could provide value in a way that you're not recognizing. I think also depending on what the circumstances are, sometimes that endpoint is really far away, or it's hard to find enough meaning in that to justify what you're what you're experiencing day to day. So something else to consider, or some other just strategies, or like ways to find meaning in what you're doing to consider would be trying to find direct meaning in how what your work does affects other people. Whether it's in kind of a more global sense of what you're doing ends up helping you know people like get some value from a product or from some sort of service or something, or with the people that you interact with on a daily basis, whether it's like customers or coworkers, like you can find a lot of value in trying to like help someone else have a good experience, or help someone else have a good day, or communicate with someone. Like have a friendly conversation with somebody. Ask them like genuinely how they're doing or about their lives. It's another area where curiosity can come in as well, where you could try to look for something that someone's doing really well, and like compliment them on that, or ask them about some aspect of their life that you know people always enjoy, like talking about themselves and and things that are important to them. And you can find a lot of value in in being on the other side of that conversation. And then another one, and you did touch on this, Mike, is if you're learning something, like you're learning a new skill, or you're curious about what you're experiencing throughout the day, that can also be something that you find valuable, and hopefully that's something that you can do, like in your job or things that you're doing day to day. You know, you can try to like work on a particular skill or learn how to do something new, but also if that's something that isn't really part of your job, like you could bring that in through some sort of like hobby or other interest and pursue that a little bit further. And so those are some other ideas that might be helpful if someone is feeling particularly stuck. But yeah,

Theresa Piela  1:08:17  
you're just making me think of like a lot of the like the really effective, well-researched hacks. Like I don't like that word, so I'm quoting it hacks. But for depression, anxiety, rumination, gratitude, doing something nice for someone else when you really feel like your life is falling apart is one of the fastest way out. And yeah, learning something new, like if we're kind of hyper focused on our health problems, our health problems, our health problems, our symptoms, shifting the focus towards learning a new skill, and even better if there is some kind of meaning and thinking about who is this helping, what is the why, what is the impact, how is this generating something bigger that I can feel really proud of. It's such a beautiful and free way to interrupt these loops that we all fall into at some point. I think these are some of my favorite topics to discuss because of how they permeate everything, and it's I love hearing both of your perspectives here because I think it's you know someone might think oh you know nutrition. Look at their chronometer, dial in diet, and boom. You know your gut issues go away. But there's a lot of levers we can pull with what you what you guys just touched on, and and all of the ways we can be find some strength and and and creativity through whatever obstacles life delivers, because life-that is a promise. Life is going to keep delivering obstacles, and if we see them as opportunities to grow and to keep refining and being able to become wiser, so that we can offer and uplift others through these lessons, then. Nothing is ever wasted, and there's I find comfort in that. Okay, so David Green 8608 shared, I was five years keto. I ended up with low T, rising blood glucose, and looked frail. I switched to 350 grams of carbs per day, and all my health issues reversed, and my lean muscle mass exploded. My sleep is better with the carbs, and I have much needed energy for my competitive running. Yes, David Green. I mean, these stories never get old because we've all been in such frail, depleted states, and to to think about it as being so simple that carbs, adding carbs back in, reverse and can reverse what all you know some of the most chronic, complicated disease processes. I mean, that's pretty inspiring. Mike Jay, any thoughts on on David Green's success?

Mike Fave  1:11:01  
Yeah, I think it's great that he was able to add carbs and that he's feeling much better overall. I love your your intonation on exploded. Yeah, no, that's great. I'm glad that he was able to switch over, and it sounds like some of the content was helpful, and I think that's that's what we're here for-is put out content to help people do this, even whether you work with us or not. So I'm I'm happy. Sleep's better, gaining muscle, energy's improved. This is awesome.

Jay Feldman  1:11:31  
Yeah, definitely being able to handle the stressors, right? I mean, that's one of the main things we were talking about throughout this episode. It was part of the other aspect of that clip that we did hear from Ray, you know, talking about what can determine whether the same stressor has a major stress effect or doesn't. Of course, enjoyment is one factor. Having enough fuel and carbs and being in a good metabolic state is another huge factor. And so we're seeing the direct impact of that here, where you know now he's obviously having a really good experience with you know, as you said, all this health issues reversed and able to handle you know something like competitive running, which is definitely not a small challenge on the body. That's for sure.

Theresa Piela  1:12:10  
Yeah, well done, David.

Speaker 1  1:12:13  
Yeah.

Theresa Piela  1:12:15  
All right, let's close out the show here. Even though I really wish we could have watched that last clip, we'll just add it in another episode. Jay, where can people find you?

Jay Feldman  1:12:25  
My website is jfeldmanwellness.com. Tons of free resources there that you can go ahead and check out. And as far as social media goes, my handle is at jf wellness, and on YouTube, jfeldmanwellness

Theresa Piela  1:12:39  
Mike,

Mike Fave  1:12:41  
you can find me at my YouTube channel, Mike Fave, as well as my website, Mikefave.com. What about you, Teresa?

Theresa Piela  1:12:48  
LivingRootsWellness.com, LivingRoots Wellness on Instagram, and if you are interested in the Tapping Library and Workshops, that's now accessible through my LivingRootsWellness.com website under tapping with T. All right, guys, we'll close it out here for today. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in, and we will see you next time.