[00:00:00] Jay Feldman: Welcome to episode 4 of the Bioenergetic View. In today's episode, we'll be going over what Layne Norton is missing regarding seed oils. We'll discuss what we think of Liver King's steroid use and how this relates to fitness culture and unhealthy body image. We'll also be going over Ben Bikman's complete misapplication of a study regarding blood sugar and insulin resistance.

[00:00:19] And lastly, I'll be providing my response to Thomas DeLauer. Regarding omega threes and cod liver oil. And with that, let's jump right in.

[00:00:27] Danny

[00:00:28] Okay. Welcome to a bioenergetic view episode number four with Mike Fave and Jay Feldman. And we're going to jump right into the news. And our first story is the online vicious beef between Andrew huberman and Biolayne Norton. And so, it's about seed oils, Jay. Okay, so let's jump into it. Here is Huberman's tweet, and he goes, So many questions about seed oils, so here it goes. Folks like Biolayne have argued quite compellingly that it's a calorie density, not seed oils per say that is problematic, but there remains a very vocal seed oils are A, the culprit crowd.

[00:01:05] So, Here's what I know for certain, there are a growing number of restaurants and food trucks in LA, NYC, and Austin and elsewhere advertising no refined seed oils, only butter, ghee, tallow, actual olive oil, and I suspect that more will follow suit. Meanwhile, does anyone on X know of any credible and independent lab exploring seed oils?

[00:01:24] In the context of human cellular health and illness, if so, please put in the comments. Thank you. And so Norton Layne Norton replied and he had a longer tweet, but interrupt me guys. If you guys have something to say, but Layne says seed oils are not innocuous to human health as they have been the biggest contributed to increase energy intake over the last few decades. However, I'm the idea that they are uniquely harmful isn't supported by hard data. And so Layne says, Yes, you can find in vitro studies looking at lipid oxidation and cell damage. Yes, you can find rodent overfeeding studies where there are negative outcomes. Yes, you can find epidemiology showing consumption of seed oils is associated with worse health outcomes. But what happens in human randomized control studies? What happens in RCTs where seed oils are exchanged for saturated fat? Neutral or positive effects on inflammation, neutral or positive effects on heart disease. What about metabolic health? Neutral or improved insulin sensitivity, PUFA decreased visceral fat relative to saturated fat.

[00:02:24] PUFA has improved HbA1c, fasting glucose C, reactive peptide, HOMA, IR compared to saturated fat. What about cancer? Replacing saturated fat with PUFA doesn't affect cancer incidence. PUFA decreased risk of cancer mortality slightly compared to saturated fat. Even the most demonized PUFA, linoleic acid, does not increase cancer risk.

[00:02:46] What is my take here? If you only look at epidemiology and in vitro mechanistic data, you can hack together a horror story for almost any nutrient. I'm RCTs where N6

[00:03:00] Jay Feldman

[00:03:01] I think it's supposed to be in RCTs. There's a number of typos.

[00:03:05] Danny

[00:03:05] RCTs where N6 PUFAs, aka seed oils, are used in place of saturated fats, they are neutral slash positive effects on health.

[00:03:13] This is crucial. Last one here, or second to last. Because if you are dumping seed oils on your food, you are increasing calories and can incur energy toxicity, aka overfeeding. Further, seed oils are part of many fried foods. These foods are extremely energy dense. Most people overconsume them and calories by default.

[00:03:33] But when you compare them head to head with saturated fat, saturated fat is not superior for almost any health marker, and for most SFA is worse. But you don't just dump seed oils on everything you eat because you're, you'll likely overeat. And overeating has serious metabolic consequences. RCT is uniquely harmful, not based on the human RCTs comparing PUFAs to other fats, and in many cases they seem to be better.

[00:03:57] The only data to to the contrary is weak epidemiology or mechanistic studies. Now cue ad hominems, false dichotomies, strawmans, and appeals to naturalism. People have been asking me to cover this topic for a while.

[00:04:08] Mike Fave

[00:04:09] That's enough. Danny, I'm gonna vomit.

[00:04:11] Mike Fave

[00:04:11] Oh, I can't do it anymore.

[00:04:13] Jay Feldman

[00:04:14] Yeah, and we don't need that last slide. It's nothing.

[00:04:16] Alright. What do you think?

[00:04:17] Mike Fave

[00:04:18] You just got more inflammatory in the last couple slides and just, it wasn't the ar, the arguments were in the first few that we covered. So.

[00:04:24] Danny

[00:04:24] What, what do you think, Mike?

[00:04:26] Mike Fave

[00:04:26] I think that, I think that looking at, I think completely throwing out. The animal studies and then also the in vitro studies and the cellular studies and understanding the mechanisms of how polyunsaturated fatty acids are working because you have some randomized controlled trials that show some neutral, if not positive effects, at least through associative markers like cholesterol values is a huge error. I think it's a huge error to, and then to even frame things as if it's just a calorie problem. It's kind of a ridiculous argument overall, at least in my perspective. And I think if I'm not super familiar with Layne's work, cause I don't follow him or engage with his content or, or consume his content on a regular basis, but I get the sense that everything for him is calories in calories out or some type of perspective or some type of lens to there, which in general, I think is a bit of a laughable lens because calories tell you nothing about the food content besides some arbitrary marker of energy. So it doesn't really get into the nitty gritty details of what the individual foods are doing metabolically, or how they're interacting with microbiome, or how they're interacting with hormones, or anything along those lines.

[00:05:42] I think starting to look at the specific effects there becomes quite important and actually understanding mechanisms becomes important instead of understanding a associations or statistical component analysis inside randomized control trials. I'm not saying to throw those things out. I'm saying to try to figure out where, what is the, or marry or kind of find the, the paradoxes or eliminate the paradoxes by understanding what's going on metabolically in these certain circumstances.

[00:06:09] I think that would be the actual intelligent approach overall, instead of saying, Oh, there's all this other stuff you guys don't know what you're talking about because we have randomized control trials. You could also pull up trials with polyunsaturated fatty acids, including fish oil that create problems in terms of lipid peroxidation and things along those lines.

[00:06:26] So just like throwing stuff, like throwing study to add each other and study studies useless. It's like, that's not even worth engaging in that. It's more going into the research. Okay. We have this set of mechanisms. We see that polyunsaturated fatty acids. are more likely to be peroxidized. In certain states, they are more likely to increase lipid peroxidation, especially under states of stress we know that they're metabolized differently than saturated fatty acids in terms of their packaging export at the liver, in terms of their effect on LDL, in terms of their effect on how they're actually oxidized inside the mitochondria because of the double bonds we know that all of these things have multiple different effects, and it's trying to take this full picture together and understand why are we seeing these, these situations inside animals? What is the context that's causing that? Why are we seeing some of these changes inside the human studies? And then, and then marrying those things together with the mechanisms, putting the full picture together, instead of being an old randomized trials show this so we should like, it's just calories. It's not the seed oils and everyone else who's showing also their data, like just ignore them data is more important than your feelings or something like, so basically it's just an appeal to some type of authority perspective, which I think is a useless perspective to have and more and more valuable to actually figure out what's going on.

[00:07:45] So we know there's problems with polyunsaturated fatty acids there is data to show problems. We also see some studies where we're not seeing problems or some markers that are looked at for cardiovascular disease, like cholesterol levels tend to improve or change in insulin sensitivity but those things can be explained by some of the mechanisms of PUFA and how the polyunsaturated fatty acids are going about inducing those mechanisms is extremely important to understand because there's things that will have beneficial effects if you're looking at associate factors inside the body and will show benefit if those are the ways that you are determining benefit but how it's going about it may not actually be beneficial overall.

[00:08:24] For example, like you can lose weight on keto or low carb diets, but in the longterm there may be problems down the road in terms of what's going on metabolically with running on excess fatty acids and then changes inside the mitochondria. So the question is, again, how are these things happening and how do we How do we rectify any type of paradoxical arguments and understand what's fully going on instead of creating a duality of randomized controlled trials of the best and everything else is useless?

[00:08:50] Danny

[00:08:50] What do you think, Jay?

[00:08:51] Jay Feldman

[00:08:51] Yeah, I mean, I would definitely echo that. I think, so, we, we had a very similar discussion with Alan Aragon. Peace where he was basically saying the same thing where and again, as you said, Mike, I don't know the details of lands views on health as a whole but from what I understand and what I have seen, it's a calories are all that matters sort of situation.

[00:09:11] And so these, you know, specific foods, macronutrient ratios, any intervention only matters in so much as it causing consistent calorie deficits versus surpluses. And that's, that is the lens and so everything else has to fit into that. And there's a huge resistance to the idea that anything outside of that affects health really in any way.

[00:09:29] And, and so I think that is the, the, his basic stance from, from what I see and along with that, it's like a debunking trends. And seed oils have become this trend and in the process of doing so, the rationale for it has become diluted, even just calling it seed oils is missing the point, right? It's not even talking omega sixes.

[00:09:48] It's definitely not talking omega threes as well. So there's been this huge dilution to the point where it gets to someone like that or it's become popularized and and the details are going to be missed and it makes it much easier to discount, and that's a natural progression of things, but that's, it's going to leave room for someone to say, well, there's not enough data on seed oils to say that there's a concern.

[00:10:11] And as we talked about again with in the Ellen Aragon piece, the whole, like the big picture idea, and this is something you're getting at Mike, if there's not a clear effect across all randomized trials, it's not. There's, there's no, there's not enough evidence to do something about it, I think is a dangerous, like a really dangerous premise for a number of reasons.

[00:10:32] Part of this is, I mean, the whole reason why research is done, and also it's not just randomized control trials, it's randomized control trials in humans. And so there's a number of things to note here for one is that randomized, first off, mechanisms are important as a starting place and then Layne has a point that just because there's a mechanism doesn't mean it plays out in real life in the way that... we would expect it to and that's an important point like we always want to, we don't want to just take a mechanism on its own. We want to then see that play out as we apply it in intervention type research. And the thing is, you see that very clearly in like across all animal studies, you see it very clearly across big picture, These like thesis throughout physiology, looking at something like the membrane pacemaker theory, where you're taking application of mechanism and applying that across all species, across randomized controlled trials and species, looking at epidemiology, looking at the whole thing and seeing very important trends in this case, showing that the more proof that you have in the membrane, the quicker you're going to die and the shorter your lifespan is going to be.

[00:11:33] And the faster you're going to age and on and on. So these things are really important, not to discount, unless we have a reason to discount it. So if you're going to say yes, there's a ton of rat studies and mice studies and animal studies showing increased consumption of PUFA increases the deproxidation, causes cardiac issues, shortens lifespan, increases mortality, and on and on, but there is a very good reason we discount it.

[00:11:55] And that's because rat physiology in terms of PUFA is dramatically different from humans. Great. That is important. But that doesn't exist. There's nothing to suggest that we should discount that research is really important. And there's a lot of value to doing research on animals because it's much easier to create larger interventions across a longer time span and study it more in depth than it is with humans.

[00:12:17] You can't give a human You can't do this huge intervention over 50 years with high PUFA versus low PUFA, then kill the human, examine the tissues, look at, look at how long they lived. And there's so many things that you can't do in human research that you can in animal research. So it's really important to consider the animal research, unless we have a major reason to discount it.

[00:12:36] And I would say that the animal research here is extremely clear as a starting point and that corroborates all of the mechanisms that underlie it. So that's one. thing that I would say is that if we're just looking at randomized controlled human trials, we're missing all of that. Then, as you were saying, Mike, there is, when it comes to randomized human controlled trials or randomized controlled trials in humans, there are quite a few that are suggesting negative outcomes from various you know, polyunsaturated fat levels of consumption and whatnot. And it, what we're not going to do in this podcast is dig through hundreds of studies and explain why some are more valuable than others, or some have problems with their methods. And that's not the whole point of this podcast, but I would just let it be known that there is quite a bit of human research that suggests that there is a great concern with the polyunsaturated fats.

[00:13:22] Danny

[00:13:23] Yeah. But Layne said,

[00:13:24] Mike Fave

[00:13:25] what was that?

[00:13:26] Danny

[00:13:26] But Layne said, I'm just joking.

[00:13:28] Mike Fave

[00:13:28] Although that's what it's not about. It's not supposed to be like a match between lane studies. And then the studies that we cite the, it's not like go, well, Lane says this and we say that it's like, why are we finding the discrepancies? What are the mechanisms that are leading to the change in discrepancies? Can we actually figure those out? Because. There has to be an explanation for why there's a difference, and it's not, it, some of it could come down to how the studies are done, but some of it can also come down to how the, the, these types of fats are being metabolized differently, and then the different context in which they're being used, which is, which is important to consider, and I think that's where I would recommend Looking into these, these types of processes and getting the full picture instead of cutting out one entire area because calories or because these are randomized control and everything else is, you know, it's, it's not randomized control that's gold standard, whatever the thing is, well,

[00:14:19] Danny

[00:14:20] you had mentioned it earlier. Like, for example, I would bet that lane would interpret a decrease in cholesterol as a good thing. You know, like which we might look at as like a poisoning the mitochondria or something. And also I don't even think you have to go that deep with it.

[00:14:34] Like if you find a higher level of prostaglandin E2 in breast cancer, or you find higher prostaglandin E2 in prostate cancer, and then PUFA is the substrate for that to be produced. Like that's not that, like it's not mental gymnastics to try to figure out what's going on there. And so, I don't know, some of this stuff is so low level, and it doesn't have to be too complicated, so, jay Feldman

[00:14:59] You can't do that, Danny. You can't say, well, there's peroxidized polyunsaturated fats in plaque, so if you consume them, that's going to be more likely to happen. You're not, you can't do that until we have a clear randomized controlled trial. Yeah, we do an RCT for that. With no conflicting evidence around it at all.

[00:15:13] Everything about, Like has to very show, you know, show very clearly that there are only beneficial outcomes. There are only harmful outcomes from this. And again, one of the other things we're getting at, sorry, Danny, do you want to keep going? I know I interrupted you.

[00:15:24] Danny

[00:15:24] No, no, no. I'm good. Keep going.

[00:15:26] Jay Feldman

[00:15:26] One other thing that we're talking about is there's a number of biases from the mainstream research channels. One is they're looking at certain outcomes, like a decrease in cholesterol and assuming that that's going to improve heart disease risk, let's say. And there are a ton of built in assumptions there that are really faulty. So that's one thing to consider. The other is the general bias in research. Is one for things like calories and calories out to be the only arbiter of health, right?

[00:15:52] There is a huge industry bias for that that's majorly beneficial to industry and either that or genetics, right? Those have to be the two things because that allows for that leaves the food industry off the hook. And then it allows the pharmaceutical industry to function. And so that, that is the, a huge inherent bias across research, across medicine.

[00:16:10] Another thing to consider as well is with the seed oils in particular, you could argue that they're Our particular, I mean, you see it labeled, right? You see heart healthy labeled on all, you know, on the canola oil and everything. There's a huge government bias to it. And there has been for a very long time.

[00:16:25] I mean, we're talking 50 plus years. There's huge industry bias. So that is going to be a huge influence when it comes to the human randomized control trials. And it's hard to quantify that. And I'm not saying just throw it all the trials because of that, but I do think it should be considered for sure.

[00:16:39] And then the last thing I would say is, again, that's going to affect the way that the study is set up, right? And you can set up a med like, Mike, you've talked about this a lot with medications. It's like you test the new medication against a suboptimal dose of the old one that's too low to have an effect, and you say, hey, look, the new medication works way better.

[00:16:55] They set up the trial for a certain outcome and that's kind of thing happens with the polyunsaturated fats as well, where the low PUFA group is not really all that low in many cases, and it needs to be pretty low. If you're at 10 percent and the other one's at 20%, you're not going to see enough benefits at 10 percent to really see a difference there.

[00:17:12] So, Again, it would require picking apart particular studies and comparing it with others. And that's not what this podcast is for. But those are all just general considerations that I would take into account.

[00:17:24] Danny

[00:17:24] Yeah. It's probably beyond the scope of this conversation, but Michael Polanyi has a book called science and society.

[00:17:29] And the point of the book is that there's no such thing as value free science. And, and any experiment, like the scientist is making a thousand kind of personal choices during the whole thing. And so, and that's like something that's a big problem in our culture.

[00:17:46] Mike Fave

[00:17:46] But you can even, you can read the, like, when you read the papers, you can see the biases, you can see the perspective and you can see the logical progression through the thought process on how, and it's not that the researcher is like, oh yeah, I can't wait to see this poof of do well. It's, but it's, if you're ingrained and encultured in a thought process that the polyunsaturated fatty acids are beneficial for heart health because they lower cholesterol, they increase membrane fluidity or these types of mechanisms and then the mechanisms that they are precursors to icosanoids or inflammatory mediators that they are very susceptible to lipid peroxidation and incorporating that into the cell structure may be problematic. Or even familiar with like the membrane pacemaker theory types of ideas with the changes in polyunsaturated content inside mitochondrial membranes. If you don't, if that's not even in your awareness. And your whole education process is around awareness of the, the benefits on cholesterol or the membrane fluidity or that they're essential or things like that. Those ideas take precedence inside the papers. And when you start reading the papers, a lot of times papers will start off the essential fatty acids discussed by the, discovered by the burrs and yada, yada, yada. And like, that is telling you that this is the premise, this is the frame with which this person is looking at. This, this entire paper and the research and like, that doesn't mean that everything that they're doing is consciously biased in the sense they are trying to shoot for an outcome that favors polyunsaturated fatty acids, but it's because that exists in and of itself, and you know, it may be hard if you don't know about these things, like how you're going to get rid of that is you don't know what you don't know, right?

[00:19:22] So, But because those things exist when you start reading the papers, you can kind of see like the way the thought process unfolds and the way that the logical progression and how the experiments are set up are done. And especially because even inside the research, like the idea that lard is a high saturated fat substrate for the diet is laughable. It's not a high saturated fat substrate by percentage of fats. So like, again, that's just one example. This, that's not specific to something that lane said, but when you go through some of these studies, what you start to see is that they'll say the low proof of group and then the high proof of group, and then they'll, they'll, it'll be lard or it'll be like this plus corn oil or something to prevent an essential fatty acid deficiency. And so in that circumstance, like what are you, and some of these things, you're not really testing lower high PUFA. You're not really testing high saturated fat versus a high PUFA intake in certain circumstances. A lot of times you're just testing some amount of PUFA versus some other amount of PUFA. Something along those lines. And then again, the other mechanisms aren't considered, right? And that's what you're kind of touching on, Danny, is that if there's a context that polyunsaturated fats are good because they lower cholesterol, but then this is why understanding mechanism is so important, because if you. If you know how they're going about lowering cholesterol. So Jay and I talked about this in the fatty liver series. If you see with like fish oil, that fish oil is going in and creating oxidative stress in the endoplasmic reticulum of the cell and then affecting the ability of the liver cell to actually export the LDL and then you're lowering serum cholesterol. Yeah, but how are you going about doing that? That's highly problematic. Even with something like, like statin, the idea of statins, we're just going to block the whole, what's it, the melavinate pathway through the HMG CoA enzyme. We'll just block the whole thing and then your serum cholesterol levels will be lower. But it's like, you haven't corrected any of the underlying problems as to why the cholesterol levels are elevated in the first place. And And in consideration for the problems of, of the, the downstream effects of that because of the use of those metabolites through that pathway in different areas, for example, with the deiodinase enzymes or proteins inside the mitochondria, like there's no thought to that it's just like cholesterol bad. We're going to lower it. Therefore, any outcome after that has assumed to be good on cardiovascular function without really digging in. So how the papers are being formed and how things are being thought about have implicit biases in them, not conscious biases, but subconscious biases, and then the papers are being driven in these types of directions, so like Again, there's like a million examples I can give, right? Like you see increased insulin sensitivity with polyunsaturated fatty acid consumption. It's like, yes, that is probably going to happen because the polyunsaturated fatty acids don't change the FADH to NADH ratio as much as the saturated fatty acids do because they have double bonds. But that's in a short term, that's not talking about what is the long term effect of incorporating polyunsaturated fatty acids into the structure or lipid peroxidation or the inflammatory mediator. So context is also really important and so are mechanisms. And that's why you have the randomized control trial, you have the human data, you see what's going on there, you see what's going on in these different mechanistic studies, and then you break down and you try to understand, well, why are we seeing this here? How are these, how can we put the mechanisms to understand these different studies instead of just Well, the researchers results were X and then, okay, so then it must be good. And it's just calories. Like, no, it's just calories. And the calories thing is the worst. Because again, like, what does a calorie tell you about a food? It tells you some, some quantum, some fungible quantifiable value of energy. That's it. It's literally it. It's like you're trying to use a really blunt tool you're trying to use just a hammer to build a house. And that's all the calories are good for. Hammering and nails. And then you want to explain everything through the hammer instead of all the other things downstream besides that. And that's why you have categorization of macronutrients, micronutrients, the heavy metal contents of food, polyunsaturated contents of food. Like there's multiple things to look at in terms of the effects of these things on the body. And I think that's more important to consider instead of some blanket statement about calories, which again is even unhelpful to people.

[00:23:33] Besides the fact that if you want to know how much food you're eating, you can quantify it in calories. Like, yes, If you overfeed certain things, there's problems, but there's more to the problem. There's more to the problem than just that. And just focusing on that as doing a disservice to many people who are trying to solve their problems and like looking to see what are these other things. And that's why for me, it's irritating when they ghost that because it's like an apology for, you know, For what's going on with, with the food industries and things, people are exposed to, it's like, oh, you're just a glutton, you're just eating too many calories when it's like, no, the food supply is like really damaged, and the things that are, people are being given and exposed to are highly problematic and creating issues. It's like in Lane's world, it's like none of that exists.

[00:24:13] Jay Feldman

[00:24:14] Oh, it's all the individual's fault. And a couple, just to tag on. So talking about the implicit bias in research, sometimes it's really obvious. Another example where we saw it really clearly is in the calorie restriction hormesis studies. There's that one in, in apes where they have one group that's eating a fully processed diet. They induce calorie restriction and the calorie restriction group has benefits. They have another group that's on a good whole foods diet. They induce calorie restriction and there's no benefit. And the conclusion that they have to come to is that there was so much of a hormetic effect from the whole foods, the polyphenols and everything that the added calorie restriction didn't add enough more hormesis, or it wasn't enough to create more of a difference and so they were already got the maximal hormetic effect. It's like, that is insane to come to that conclusion, but that is, but it's, it's so inherently built in, and as you were saying, it's not like. A researcher would go into this trial saying, you know, I know seed oils have to be good. So that's, that is my mode that is my goal here is to come out the other end of the trial, take that cash from the seed oil industry and show that they're beneficial. Like, we're not saying that that's how it is. These are implicit. In the textbooks, these aren't play. I mean, how many doctors do you talk with who are like, yeah, I was so fearful about prescribing T3 I mean, I've talked to a couple of doctors recently about this, but they're like, if you look at what they tell you as a doctor about T3, like you are, you are so fearful of prescribing it. And I've started to learn about it. I've understand. So the physiology better. I started prescribing it to my patients in a proper way, and they're doing so much better. I mean, it's, again, this is part of the problem with just using the RCTs and whatnot. I mean, it's the same idea as just following that information of don't prescribe T3 because the only time someone's going to be low in T3 is if they're in a hospital bed because they're, you know, in such a low T3 syndrome from critical illness.

[00:26:05] Yeah, exactly. Like they're in such a disease state. Like that is what you get to is that idea. That is the product of the same problem. Concept that Lane's putting forth and it's really damaging. So that was one thing I wanted to mention. There's two other things that I want to, want to mention. So one is again, if we just look at lipid peroxidation, there's animal trials, there's mechanistic data, there's human trials showing increased lipid peroxidation with the increased consumption of polyunsaturated fats. You then see increased poly lipid peroxidation of these polyunsaturated fats in every disease process. When you have higher amounts of these lipid peroxides, it happens in Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, fatty liver disease, diabetes, heart disease it's in the plaques. Like it's, it's everywhere. You see it, but you, you're not allowed to connect those things because there's not a randomized control. They're not in humans. That's an exact effect. And yeah. And then you're just leaving yourself a product of the, the inherent bias among other things. But like, that's just a huge, like you're leaving yourself as the doctor who thinks that the only person who needs T3 is, is laying in a hospital bed because of their low T3. And it's, yeah, it's dangerous. It's. It's, yeah, it's awful. The other thing I want to say here is his whole argument is that seed oils are only bad because they're calorie dense. And they're no more calorie dense than any other fat source. It's they're all equivalently calorie dense. So again, big picture epidemiology one thing a lot of people will point to is there's been this massive shift toward polyunsaturated fats in the diet over the last decades, several decades, five, six, seven decades, where you're then seeing massive increases in chronic disease. Of course, you can't draw a direct conclusion there. You then have to also corroborate that with the mechanistic data and animal studies and human studies and everything. But I think that is at the very least a cause for concern. And yeah, I think that again, you're totally discounting that as you were saying, Mike, you're, you're totally blaming the individual and taking any blame away from the actual quality of the food and the shifts that are happening around us that we have very little control over and again, you're, you're taking that power away from people to actually improve their health other than just forcing constant restriction for their entire lives.

[00:28:20] Mike Fave

[00:28:21] Yeah, it's removing agency to some extent, right? Because it's just, it's all about calories. And when many people, we were bombarded with the idea of calories so much, and many people will go and adjust their caloric intakes. And it won't, maybe they'll lose weight or something first couple times. Then it doesn't solve the other problems that they're dealing with. It doesn't explain, you know, if you have serious digestive issues, calories don't explain FODMAPs. They don't explain they don't explain irritation of certain foods in the intestine a calorie is not gonna tell you anything about that. So, yeah, God forbid you have a digestive issue and you have a bunch of foods you have problems with. Well, you, you know, it's just 'cause you're eating too much.

[00:28:57] Jay Feldman

[00:28:58] Yeah. Dude. What does digestive issues have to do with health? I haven't seen any human RCTs on that.

[00:29:03] Mike Fave

[00:29:04] Yeah. Yeah. The other thing with the the other thing with, with this, with this type of ideas or the, the, the calorie idea overall is like, it is kind of a distraction or almost an apology. For what's going on with the food supply and like the food industry and how things are being promoted and whatnot.

[00:29:21] And I think that that is a huge issue. That is like a, a really, a really big issue, like distracts from that. And it puts things on a, on a value that doesn't like are, can calories be helpful to know? Yes. But it's like, perhaps that's one tool in a vast toolbox of nutrition things that you have at your disposal and so to just hone down in on that and not start to look at these other tools you have available, I think is, is a mistake. And I think that people won't get the outcomes that they want if they limit the resource that they have at their, their disposal. Now, it's not to say that some things that people will harp on or that focus on heavily are probably not going to be that helpful overall. That is, that is a hundred percent true. You can try to use a tool that doesn't really get the job done for what you need to get done. But I think seed oils and polyunsaturated fat intake is one of those tools, adjusting your, your fatty acid profile the amount of polyunsaturated fats you take in is actually one of the big tools that we have at our disposal to help minimize some of these problems. The last thing I want to say here too, is that. If I, there are some studies looking at caloric consumption over time, and if anything, I don't see like a drastic change in caloric consumption from 2000s until the, from the early 1900s. And there's, there's studies looking at these things like they'll break down what caloric intake is for different groups. So, to just post it as a caloric problem, like, we need to see the RCTs on that as well. I just want to leave it there. Well,

[00:30:49] Jay Feldman

[00:30:49] Mike, 10 extra calories a day is all it takes, right? 10 extra calories a day, 10 years, that's 10 pounds. Think about that. 40 years, you've gained 40 pounds. So, I think, even if you just see, you know, an increase in 10 calories, that could be the whole problem.

[00:31:02] M ike Fave

[00:31:03] All right, that's it. You got it.

[00:31:04] Danny

[00:31:05] Well speaking of low t3 t3 syndrome, I know that mike got that when he found out that his hero liver king was doing steroids.

[00:31:14] Mike Fave

[00:31:14] Danny I I literally was like I went pure hypothyroid, pure hypogonadal.

[00:31:20] I had to, you know, I started injecting growth hormone. No, I'm just joking. I thought you were going to talk about Liver King's low T3. Oh, did he release his labs? Is that on his, I don't, I think he did at one point. I don't remember. I don't know. Obviously, I mean, one of the inherent effects of a carnivore diet is, is going to be low T3, but we'll get to that.

[00:31:38] Jay Feldman

[00:31:39] Yeah, well, do you want to set this up or do you want to watch it or, well, why are we talking about liver? Sure, I mean, yeah. So to set it up, I think it was like eight months ago, liver King came, like it got found out, he got exposed that he was on steroids, you know, for however many years he wasn't exposed with his first Instagram photo.

[00:31:59] And this was like a big deal in the health industry. Cause the whole idea that he was indirectly putting forth was I got to where I am based on this animal based diet or a carnivore diet. And suggesting people to follow those tenets to be like him and the whole concern from the, I guess, more of the fitness industry is that the fact that he was on steroids means that this was not attainable based on what he was doing with diet and lifestyle.

[00:32:23] And I think that was why it blew up. Like, I don't, I think for us. That was a kind of obvious and didn't mean as much, but I think there's, there's like a, some other things that are important here. One is the fact that he needed steroids based on his diet and lifestyle. And he talked, so in the initial interview, when he came out about this, He talked about the fact that his overexercising, which he deemed as unhealthy, was is a part of like his body image issues, his self esteem issues, which like kudos to him for bringing all these things up.

[00:32:52] I think they're really important. And it's part of why this backslide is so awful. He talked about how as a result of his own mental health issues, he overexercised to the point of his own detriment and because of that needed to use steroids. That's really important because he's putting his exercise routine out there as if that is a health promoting thing and that is what got him to where it is, but it was actually detrimental for him along with his diet, which a lot of people were surprised because he, his diet was out in those emails and he was eating a few hundred grams of carbs a day, but it still wasn't enough to offset the other kinds of things that he was doing.

[00:33:23] And most of the carbs are like dextrose and honey and things like that. His, his diet alone is supplements and everything. Yeah. We're not enough to make up for his lifestyle. And there was obviously more tweaks that we would have suggested diet wise. And as a result, he needed steroids to prevent low T and low growth hormone and whatnot.

[00:33:42] And to create this unattainable body image due to his own self esteem issues. And it's really great that he brought that up because I think most people in the fitness bodybuilding sphere will never acknowledge that the reason why they want their body to look a certain way is due to some mental health issues.

[00:33:56] I think that that's like really important to recognize. Like, I don't think we should be looking at that as a healthy body image in the vast majority of cases, of course, we're generalizing, but it's unattainable without insane amounts of medications, essentially, and really damaging. Those people are not living long.

[00:34:12] They're not healthy. They're normally dealing with a lot of health issues. So she came out and said all these things. Talked about his body image issues and, and said like, yes, it's true. I've been on steroids. He owned up to it, apologized, and then went off of the steroids. And this is eight months later.

[00:34:28] So that's, I guess the, the kind of setup here.

[00:34:32] Danny

[00:34:32] Okay. So this is on his official channel, I think. So moist critical calls me out, says that I'm back on steroids, has a whole bunch of accusations. Here's what I have to say back. Moist critical. You're late to the party. All you had to do was go to liver king com. All of it's there. All of it. I guess here's what I'll say. I didn't lie to anybody when I went on the podcast and I started talking about my earnest commitment to go natural. So this year, starting on January 2nd, I went 220 days without any steroid, without any growth hormone, without any peptide, without anything synthetic. If you call eating a pound of fresh, raw bull testicles every single day natural, then I've been natty as fuck for 220 days. There's been a lot of accusations. You don't just get more shredded and more vascular and more yada, yada, yada. When you come off steroids. Once again, if you go to liver king. com and you see the stats page, I'm providing weekly updates. So I was about 206 pounds in December. And then I got down to all the way down to 182. So I've lost over 20 pounds, you know, and anybody who interacts with me in real life will tell you I look leaner for anybody who doesn't believe me All you have to do is look at my social media photos Look at it from December to now and tell me that you can't tell the difference Massive difference. I'll tell you what I don't like. I don't like the idea of losing over 20 pounds of muscle I don't like the idea that became the reality of losing a lot of strength My one rep max strict press was like 255 and I couldn't even hit 205 in July So I've decided to go back on it. I'm taking testosterone. It's a cream. I do three clicks of it a day. I'm also doing a growth hormone. It's two clicks a day. Really what's considered HRT or TRT. It's hormone replacement therapy. Managed in the normal range. Not a super physiological range. So why am I getting back on? I've done what I need to do. I've proven what I needed to prove. To me. The commitment that I made to my boys, to my family, I'm living. To all the primals out there is I would never lie again. I went on record. I went out to my website. I went and said, I told it all anybody. Like I said, if you're late to the party, that's fine. You can go and you can look at the confessional. Why I decided to go back on. I've done what I need to do. I'm living my life by my terms, not somebody else's terms.

[00:36:55] Danny

[00:36:56] Do you think it was strategic that the clicks like the three Doesn't really say how much it doesn't mean. Yeah I I really don't have too much of a problem with this to be honest with you Like he is lying is like I think anybody that knew anything would know that he was not right Yeah, but I thought it was more interesting Just reading through those emails that Derek had posted of like him actually telling the truth about the whole situation, like you said, like kind of getting where his head was at. But and, and again, maybe I'm not looking at the kids or something that are following him or thinking that what he's saying is legit or in harming themselves. Like and so there's probably some element to this that I'm not aware of, but I guess I just never took him seriously to begin with. So it's so hard to like even be mad about what, what happened.

[00:37:43] Mike

[00:37:44] I think, I think the biggest problem overall is not that he decides to do whatever he wants to do with that, like, who cares? The biggest problem overall is that there is, and it's, maybe it wasn't direct, but it was implicit that if you ate liver and ate primal and followed these things that you would look like liver king. Cause that, like, the social media sale was his body, like how he was looking. And a lot, I mean, the thing is, is like, Tons of people do this online, right? Like how many bodybuilders go on an Instagram and flex hard on, on how they look or this and that, and then write these plans and sell these programs, or even, even a Hollywood stars who will make programs and plans and sell them to people. And then it's like, They, I did this in X number of weeks. It's like, I'm sure you did it in X number of weeks, but I just don't think that it was entirely related around diet and training stuff overall. Are there some, okay, there's another piece. Are there some people who have genetics to look, well, liver Kings were on another level, but are there some people who have genetics to put on a decent amount of muscle and, and look a certain type of way easier than others? A hundred percent. There's no question about that. There are some, there are some people I know people who are freaks. Literally freaks, like, that, even, I've had a, an uncle in my family, he was my, my aunt's husband, the guy could eat McDonald's, Entenmann's cake, every day, didn't, he, he didn't have any teeth in his mouth. But he was absolutely insanely ripped and he wasn't, I know he wasn't on roids cause he couldn't afford them based on how he was living and what he was doing. So he couldn't afford roids, but his like genetically, he was just out of control. Was his health good? No, his health was terrible. But the one thing is he always worked out. He worked out every single day. He would always go in and work out. He'd always get his pump on. He would still smoke a pack of cigarettes a day. He couldn't run more than a quarter mile. I know. Cause we would, we would shoot bass. We would shoot hoops sometimes together. But he was just like, he could hold a lot of muscle mass. He had a ton of muscle mass. He stayed lean overall. So there are people like that a hundred percent, but he also didn't look like liver King. He was big and he was like quite ripped, but the level of shredded. And with the amount of size that liver king has, I think is, and some of the other bodybuilding physique that you see are usually requiring assistance. And so the, for me, the biggest problem is promoting at least implicitly implying that you can look this type of way. If you go on a primal diet or you follow tenants as far as some of liver king's tenants and some of the things that he's recommending, I think they're fine. I think having a nutrient dense diet, I think incorporating animal foods, I think getting sunlight, I think, you know, being exposed in nature, grounding, whatever you want to call it, all those types of things, community, high quality foods, Oregon meats. I think all these are great things. So it's not even the entire message that is even the problem being low carb or whatnot. I think that there's some problems with that, but. And just the implicit message of it that I think is a problem. As far as what Liver King wants to do, if he wants to be on steroids and look a certain way, who cares? It's, it, that's how he wants to be and that's what he wants to do for his life, that's his choice. Do I think, the other thing I want to mention here is, do I think that using something like testosterone in certain circumstances is bad? No. But like the growth hormone and probably all the other stuff he was doing, that, that is different.

[00:41:04] Just physiologic doses of testosterone aren't going to make you look like the primal Hulk. That is, that is another level of physique that he's attained through some of those things. The other thing is you can still look, even in a bioenergetic or pro metabolic diet, you can be in quite good shape, hold a decent amount of muscle and be quite lean as well.

[00:41:28] It's just. You won't necessarily look like that. And even for me, I work out regularly, do all this workout regularly control my diet very religiously, all this type of stuff. And I've been working out for years. And to get to the point that I'm at now has taken me years to do this, to understand how to go in, to lift appropriately, all this type of stuff.

[00:41:45] And even with all like, when you go through that process, You go through the years of putting the time in, understanding manipulation of diet, all these components, you start to understand like some of those things really aren't attainable. So when for you and IJ like you were with, you were lifting as well.

[00:42:00] We were both into the workout stuff together for quite some time. I know you're more into martial arts stuff now, but the When we were going through it, like we knew the dedication, the time, the effort and things like that. And we also were realistic about the outcome. So when you see liver King, you're like, yeah, do some Roids.

[00:42:13] He's on the sauce. It's not even a question, but it's for people who don't have that reference experience. That is problematic to imply that that's how it's going to be, especially if there is pro, I mean, I don't think he thinks there's problems with the low carb stuff to even if you want it to be like pro level bodybuilder looking or like in really good shape, the low carb stuff is probably not the best way to go about it.

[00:42:37] So that's, that was the biggest problem for me, as far as like him hopping on or doing this, whatever that's his prerogative. And then as far as the body image stuff, I do agree with you. I think that The standard body image that's, that is being promoted as acceptable now is unreasonable for what most people are going to achieve in general, like the, the standards that get promoted on social media by a lot of guys who are heavily juiced up or who are on some type of assistance is like for natural guys is, is largely unfair, especially if they're not training. And especially if they haven't been training for years. So it's like, that is also, I think, hugely a problem because it's skewing things in a perspective where young guys think that they have to hold that amount of muscle mass.

[00:43:24] And also there's also a perspective that that is actually healthy. The amount of lean tissue that he is holding with how lean he is. I, I think is there's problems with that and I think the dosage and the types of hormones that have to be used to get to maybe even deliver a king's physique or to other physiques that you see online is hugely problematic overall and obviously growth hormone isn't a good thing to optimize in general in terms of pushing fatty acid oxidation and whatnot.

[00:43:54] Danny

[00:43:54] Yeah, so two things. One, when Jay visited me, I put him in a DART stroke in less than 20 seconds, so I just want to put that on the record. Lies. And two, I, this is kind of off, given everything you had just said there, but your, what was it, your uncle that maintained the muscle mass despite eating junk?

[00:44:11] Like I just want to throw this out there that some people be like, oh, that's so awesome But like if a person's eating trash And and like you said, they're not really that like mentally or physically healthy or mentally or something like a person could sustain the high estrogen Activation of the adrenals and then the adrenals producing androgens for like a long period of time, you know, because how many of us have seen like ripped women or ripped people that were really ill. And so they're, they're coming, they're becoming like estrogen eyes and androgen eyes at the same time. And so they're having lots of symptoms, but they're just maintaining a large amount of muscle mass. And so. I don't know, man. It's like talking like all of us do. Talking to people has radically changed my view of like thinking about what is and what isn't healthy.

[00:45:00] And I just want to throw that out there because I wouldn't even take that as necessarily like a fantastic thing. Like the in like a salient, salient sense like that, that organism is probably in the resistance stage or something of long term stress. And they're just able to mount an adaptive response like way better than some Zoomer that, you know, was off to the races immediately and had hypogonadism when they're 18, you know, and versus a Gen X er that can sustain that state for a really long period of time.

[00:45:31] But anyways, Jay, go ahead.

[00:45:33] Jay Feldman

[00:45:34] Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I do want to say, like, Him being honest is really important here. Like the, the biggest issue that people had before was there because there was, he was not telling all of it. There was the implicit idea that all of this is attainable if you just follow what he was doing.

[00:45:50] And so I do want to commend him for being honest. Although of course, in the first place, it was kind of forced upon him. It's not like he just came out on his, on his own will, but he's still, he's like chosen to continue being honest about it, and that's a difficult thing to do when, with someone like him, who's in the limelight and has, you know, You know, a lot of hate coming his way.

[00:46:07] So like, I do think that's commendable. And I also want to say, like, you can talk about his body image issue. I mean, he's talked about his body image issues, his mental health issues, and those are not his fault either. Like we don't blame him for that. And I'm not trying to say that, like, he is bad for them using the steroids as a result of that.

[00:46:25] I think he just has, he just hasn't overcome them. He still has work to do and that's fine. Like everyone's in a different place. We're in a really sick culture. Like he talked about, I think, like being bullied when he was young. Like that's, that's a part of the human journey and experience and is growing and building in all ways.

[00:46:41] And so it's okay. And I, I appreciate him being honest about it now. And you, you mentioned Danny, like about like the kids following him, he was the one who made it about that. Like in his. Coming out video, he was like, there's so many kids dealing with depression and all this stuff. And so I wanted to set an example for them.

[00:46:59] And the one thing I want to say, what you, so the one thing I want to say is, is like along those lines is he is setting now still a negative example in terms of the body image. And what, I mean, you were talking about it too, Mike, like you are creating a, an image of what somebody should be. You were trying to be the figure, the first time I'm going to look up to, and that's.

[00:47:23] And creating an unhealthy body image. You're kind of encouraging the cycle. And I hope that he breaks that. I hope that he can work through that at some point and get, you know, get through this so that he doesn't continue to do that. And so, so yeah, I don't, I guess there's not too much to go on here.

[00:47:38] Danny

[00:47:39] We'll let, let, let that last clip play. Yeah, well, I'll play in a second, but like, I bet there's more to the story here, like him just losing weight and therefore he's going back on steroids. This, this basically undercuts his entire message. It's like, Not, not necessarily that you should look like me, but hey, this is the healthiest diet is being primal or whatever, but like there's always an everything he says on every instagram clip for the rest of time is there's an asterisk with I'm using testosterone and growth hormone.

[00:48:07] Do you know what I mean? Like you can't, he can't make any statements anymore about the health or whatever, because he's like doing these extracurricular things that are having a huge effect on him. And so that's why it was like in his best interest. I think to not, not do anything. So I'm, again, I'm sure there's way more to this story and I don't buy that he lost some weight, therefore he has to go back on it.

[00:48:27] I'm sure he's a mess. Like, I'm sure it's way worse than that.

[00:48:29] Jay Feldman

[00:48:30] Well, and if he's saying like there's this asterisk here because I'm dealing with mental health issues that make me use something that's not natural and ideal and is going to potentially cause problems and create it's essentially an unhealthy body, if that asterisk is there, I mean, it's like, I don't think we can fault him.

[00:48:46] It's not like anyone who suggests anything has to be perfect in every area of their lives. As long as he's honest about that, I think. That's all he can do.

[00:48:55] Mike Fave

[00:48:55] The problem is the problem with the, with the overall picture though, is like the way the brand is set up, at least not, maybe not, he explicitly says these things, but implicitly from the audience, the brand is, is his body image, like how he actually looks associated with the primal lifestyle, like he. He is positioned as the de facto primal man, and he follows his tenants and therefore looks like he does. And then his actual products should to stomach that he uses himself, that should lead to this outcome. And so I think for him, like it's negative to the brand. Because that for him to hop on and for people to have an awareness that he's on, which is why I think he probably wanted to lie about it in the first place.

[00:49:41] It's like every single bodybuilder one doesn't want to really, or not every single, that's probably not an unfair characterization, but a lot of bodybuilders in the past have not wanted to talk or disclose their steroid use because it, if use it, when people in general hear steroids. They automatically assume that whatever you're going to do, like it doesn't matter anymore because you're on steroids. So like destroys this piece of like, Oh, this training plan works or this diet plan works, this supplement plan works. It's like, well, the, what's really working is the steroids. And so that is like the steroid pieces net negative to a brand image that's being sold on the person's image, like physical image or how their body actually looks. And I think that that is a problem. But for him, I, I assume with his physique that he wasn't just on growth hormone and testosterone before. And so especially, I don't know how tall he is. I'm almost 200 pounds, but he's probably a bit shorter because I'm over six foot. I don't know what five, nine or something.

[00:50:41] So then that's actually a really decent amount of muscle mass for his height. I would assume.

[00:50:46] Danny

[00:50:46] His list of what he was taking, he was taking like, he was taking all of the steroids. You, you know that he came out with

[00:50:52] Mike Fave

[00:50:53] I didn't, I haven't seen it, so I don't know, but like, to look the way that he does, and to run the stacks that he did, I'm sure that he has problems afterwards, and not being on any type of exogenous help is probably not going to be good for him, not only because he lost 20 pounds or he got weaker in the gym, But maybe his system's having a hard time coming back online.

[00:51:13] Maybe he's suffering with neural steroid synthesis. Maybe he's dealing with issues around depression. There's a lot of things that could be going wrong after coming, hopping off that stack. If he was just on transdermal testosterone beforehand, it probably wouldn't have been that big of a deal, but he also probably wouldn't have looked like that.

[00:51:31] So it's like, I agree with you, Danny. I think that there's definitively other symptoms he's probably experiencing or things that he's dealing with overall, overall that are, that really shut down his system and cause problems. And he may be having a hard time rectifying that appropriately, especially because, The, the the way that people generally go about solving these issues now is not great, right? Like selective extra estrogen modulators to resensitize the gonadotropic system and things like that usually don't make people feel very good. So I think it's, it's likely that he's, he's dealing with other things, but yeah, the using steroids destroys a brand image. But one thing I do want to caveat here, It's important that you eat well and like train appropriately and do things to look a certain way while you're on steroids. But if you have a lot of assistance, it really makes the game super easy, like super, super easy compared to if you're natural. And I think if you're going to have a brand image online that's promoting some diet that you do or some some supplement regimen or some training program that you do, you probably wouldn't want to be on steroids to show your before and after outcomes because it's like people know, I think people inherently understand the level of assistance that comes with these compounds. Yeah, even if clients will ask me, like I've had a couple of clients, usually young guys, like How can I drastically change all of these factors really quick? And it's like, like the, the things that you want to change, like get this amount of muscle mass and this percent body fat and this amount of time and like change these types of androgenic features and whatnot is like, though, the idea that you have in mind is like through pharma, that's through steroids that's through drugs. And there are costs to that. That's the other thing that I think is important to talk about is. If you want to look like that, fine. What is the, what are you risking to look like that? What is the downsides? What are the health effects of look of using the compounds or running the compounds, the ways he is using, he was, or is using them to get this particular look, because if, if. If you could look that way, and the compounds you're using didn't have any negative effects overall, then I think it'd hard to be, it'd be hard to argument against it, per se, but the problem is that there are actually significant health problems that come along with these types of things. I know you could, the mental health piece and all that, but I'm saying overall, like, from someone's perspective, from a young guy's perspective, that's like, if there's no downsides and there's no problems, like, why not?

[00:53:56] But there are.

[00:53:58] Jay Feldman

[00:53:59] and it's not just downsides to the substances themselves, but also having that amount of muscle mass while enforcing it in that way, it comes at inherent costs, other functions. So that's, that's a piece of it. And then also, I know you were saying, forget the why you want to look that way, but also why do you want to look like that way?

[00:54:15] That's an important question here.

[00:54:18] Okay, let's get to this class. I've never said taking my supplements, you're going to look like me. What I have said is. Make sure to get the early morning sun. Get your bare feet connected, grounded, anchored into the earth, so that you can express your highest and most dominant form.

[00:54:34] You, to express your potential. Not to look like Liver King. There's no amount of working out. Sleeping, eating, moving, shield connect, cold, all of this stuff. There's nothing you can take to look like Liver King. My supplements won't do it.

[00:54:48] Mike Fave

[00:54:49] There is things you could take to look like liver King and they're usually injectables.

[00:54:53] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But again, he is like, this is really important to acknowledge. Like, like it's, I'm glad that he said this here, you know? Yeah, that's fair. That's it is fair. It's, it's just the problem though, is like, it's almost like, I feel as if, you know, when you're doing this type of stuff that you're having that implicit association, like people are going to conflate your appearance, With those, with the things that you are promoting, like that is, that is it literally what the marketing is for to create the conflation.

[00:55:25] Jay Feldman

[00:55:26] That's why the, his image is out there with shirtless all the time. That's the whole point of it. A hundred percent.

[00:55:31] Mike Fave

[00:55:32] If, if he didn't want his body appearance. To be influencing people's opinion about the things that he was doing. The guy would be in a sweatshirt every single time, not with a raccoon on his head and a spear, like ripped and oiled up.

[00:55:49] Danny

[00:55:50] But when I, but when I look at his physique, I think of like breast implants, like phony, like it, like I, when I think of like, Oh my God, amazing physiques. I think of like the 1970s bodybuilder types with the vacuum guts and things like, that's what I think is really cool looking, not his physique.

[00:56:07] Mike Fave

[00:56:08] And so, well, he, his structure is a little, I think because of the growth hormone, he's using his waist and like he got a lot of growth.

[00:56:17] There's something called Palumbo ism. I'm not saying he has Plumbo ism. No, I think growth hormone in general enlarges a lot of different areas of the body besides just muscle mass. And his physique may be partly a function of that. Well, I think along those lines, I think he looked better when he was 20 pounds down off the steroids or you could tell his stomach was way more like the V shaped tighter.

[00:56:37] That's literally what my wife said as well. She's like, I like him. He looks better leaner. The other thing is there are studies talking about what women actually like in terms of male appearance with musculature. And the high level of musculature was actually not the optimal choice. Like this, the bodybuilder level of musculature was not considered the most attractive to females. It was like a more average attainable physique, like the Calvin Klein type look thing. Things along those lines, which are naturally attainable. Even when I talked to my wife about About the look. She's like, no, it's, this is very unattractive. It's, she says again, this is her opinion. I'm not saying this about liver King or, or, you know, people think whatever they want, but it's like a balloon animal look like it just looks unnatural. It doesn't, it doesn't look real. So, and there is research to actually support this. So I think that understanding that and having that perspective is helpful for people, for guys as well. Cause the guy, the people who like this look, who think this is great is other guys. Other guys look and you're like, Oh man, he must be like, he's a super alpha.

[00:57:40] He must, he's a Chad. He must be this. He must be that because he's so muscular. Cause men respect size and muscle and things like that. But as far as like sexual attraction for women, at least from some of the studies, it doesn't appear that super high muscle mass and with like the veins and like tons of leanness and things like that to that level is actually optimally attractive.

[00:58:00] So that's, I think that's important for guys to understand. And it's like, what is your goal? If you are trying to look a certain type of way as, as a man, what is your goal, right? There's a health benefit. You know, a lot of guys, like I want, I want to look good for girls. I want to look good naked. Like, I think those things are fine.

[00:58:15] I think those are fine, realistic things to do. It's just like, you know, at a, there's a certain level where it becomes pathologic, where it becomes a problem. And it's like, where, what are you actually shooting for? What are your outcomes? What do you actually want? With this particular type of look and then what do you have to do to get to this particular type of look for your outcomes and is going more. It's going further to these levels, worth it, reasonable, realistic. And what is the actual downsides? I think those things are really important to consider.

[00:58:47] Danny

[00:58:47] It's from a Mike red pill, Tate fave.

[00:58:50] Good. Yeah.

[00:58:50] Jay Feldman

[00:58:51] Good stuff. I will just echo like one quick point as you were saying, like, this isn't about what women find attractive. It's not about health. This is about his unhealthy body image that is leading him to do this. And it's coming at the inherent cost of his health. He's not like coming as clean.

[00:59:06] I think about that. But he did say like, this is a mental health issue struggles for him. And yeah, so, you know, and in his initial emails when he was reaching out to Derek. He was talking about like, he sent pictures and like mentioned like his lower back fat and this guy looks like he does now, like it was like, he's obviously like mentally ill in that regard to some extent.

[00:59:27] And again, that's okay. Like everyone's working through things, but yeah, I guess I'm going to repeat myself a lot, but I think I just want to echo what Mike was saying. Like, it's not about health is not about what women want. This is his own thing.

[00:59:38] Danny

[00:59:39] Yeah, there's so much we don't know as well. But he let some of.

[00:59:43] He released some of that stuff in that, those emails that Derek talked about. Okay, so speaking of Derek, here we go. And this is with Thomas D. Lauer and they're talking about Todd Liver Oil, right? Yeah, yeah, fish oil as a whole. And is this on Derek's more plates, more dates. com? Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

[00:59:59] Mike Fave

[00:59:59] Really?

[01:00:00] Because usually he has that, the wooden backgrounds, like the, the, the. With the old, the old speaker system in the back.

[01:00:07] Jay Feldman

[01:00:08] think it's posted on his YouTube, but maybe he was with, maybe he was like at Thomas DeLauer's place, I don't know. Hey guys, we are here with Thomas DeLauer, one of the premier Health and fitness diet.

[01:00:18] "I don't know just overarching broad spectrum high quality health content that I've seen on the internet to date And thanks for thanks for being here, dude So today I wanted to talk about omega 3s because this is a very nuanced discussion as far as how do you even know if what? You're getting is going to help you or hurt you.

[01:00:35] Should you be having it? Should you not be having it? It is is it as impactful on cardiovascular health as we've been led to believe or is it? You You know, always ranted and you're going to screw yourself up if you use it. So i've seen some of your content and it does get very very nuanced and there's even people who out there who say that You shouldn't even have omega 3s at all because they're problematic and there's the omega 6 to 3 ratio and all this stuff But I guess "

[01:00:57] Danny

[01:00:57] okay. What do you guys say?

[01:00:59] Jay Feldman

[01:01:00] Well, just so he's obviously introducing it here. The one thing I wanted to mention, there are very, very few people who are saying you shouldn't have a mega threes at all. I think we are some of the few, like the repeat crowd. And I'm pretty sure this was a result of me being on the the power project podcast, because there's like a, you know, they're in there, both of those guys are in that kind of network and have been on there and everything.

[01:01:20] And Tom still, our, we'll mention me later, but I just wanted to set that stage that this is, you This is, I think there's a lot of things that are starting to gain traction from the bioenergetic sphere, like having more carbs, being concerned about omega 6s, right, that's taken on as like the seed oils and people are starting to get on board with that.

[01:01:39] I think the low carb and fasting, like I do think that is starting to shift. Shifting, yeah. Yeah, and the omega 3s I think hasn't yet, but that's like one of the main next ones that I think may. Or will. And so I think we're just like starting to see that permeate a little bit.

[01:01:55] Danny

[01:01:55] Now I know why you chose this clip, Jay.

[01:02:00] I'm just joking. Oh, okay. So get to this second one. But for me, I take cod liver oil because it's got a good ratio of vitamin D3 to vitamin A, and then just the right amount of re esterified triglyceride form omega 3. And what that means is, like with that, it's usually a one to one or two to one ratio of DHA to EPA.

[01:02:20] which you're not going to find in a typical fish oil. What I mean by that is like if you go into a Costco you're probably not going to find one that has a higher ratio of DHA to EPA. But ones you do want to look for that are going to get you closest to that are going to be cod liver oil, but it's going to be a lower quantity overall.

[01:02:38] So it's a good ratio, but the quantity of omega 3s is lower in cod liver, so you'd have to take more of it. But it's in what is called a Reified triglyceride. So if you look at a label of a official pill, you're going to see that it's usually in ethyl ester form. So it'll say somewhere in the label.

[01:02:56] It'll be like in ethyl eyl or, or ethyl esterified, right? That goes rancid. That is what goes rancid when it's in a stable triglyceride form. The fish oil is much more protected. It's much more like getting it from the real fish versus. a suspended polyunsaturated fat. So those are kind of like the high marks you want to look for.

[01:03:16] You want to be looking for, okay, higher DHA content. You want to be looking for it to not have the words ethyl ester, if possible, okay? And then you also want to, you know, kind of look at, okay, what's the location? What's the region? And Isn't that a completely moot point because it's going into a 98."

[01:03:31] Mike Fave

[01:03:32] 6 degree body that's just going to oxidize no matter what. And stomach acid and bile acids which will break apart the omega 3s and then it's left to emulsify them and then bring them in the enterocyte and then they'll reform and triglyceride after like. Right, so they don't stay in trichostride form, is what you're saying.

[01:03:49] Yeah, it's, I don't know, I mean, maybe it gets less rancid before, before then, but then after then, like, yeah.

[01:03:59] Danny

[01:03:59] So, so the golden nuts? I was going to say, just to point out something good about cod liver oil is like, we're under the impression that most people are like vitamin A or D deficient. So when somebody has a positive effect taking cod liver oil, like we're not negating that that could, they could be deficient in vitamin D or A. And also, The EPA can interfere with the production of e castanets, like Mike said, and the prostaglandins, and that could have an anti inflammatory effect, but go ahead, Mike.

[01:04:30] Jay Feldman

[01:04:31] Yeah, yeah, omega 3s, people can get benefits from those too, short term, but that doesn't mean long term, it's a good idea. And, so Mike, you brought up a good point, this is going to matter, potentially, for the product on the shelf, if it's an triglyceride versus a thalester form.

[01:04:44] And I kind of mentioned that I think in the next clip where he does it, you know, acknowledge that most of the products on the shelf are already oxidized. And so he's saying, avoid those. And that's important, right? Like there are studies showing that huge portions of the ones on the shelf are already oxidized.

[01:04:58] That's not a good idea. However, What we'll get to is that it doesn't matter if you're consuming one that's not oxidized because even just digestion alone will cause proxidation. And then definitely once it's used, you know, internally, you're going to have even more. And that's what we see in the research and it doesn't matter even if it is. Cod liver oil, even if it's stable, even if it's pharmaceutical grade and it's not oxidized in the bottle, it does not mean that it's safe or healthy to consume. It doesn't mean that it's not going to be proxidized once you consume it.

[01:05:27] Mike Fave

[01:05:28] I think that there's a, you go for Mike. No. Oh, I was gonna I, the other thing I think that people talk about, 'cause like a kneejerk reaction from the hormesis crowd or from the fish oil crowd is gonna be like, well, there's all these studies that show antioxidant effects of fish oil and it's like it is causing antioxidation by inducing lipid peroxidation and upregulating a defense response. So like there's, even, you're getting, you're, you're going to get lipid peroxide products from fish oil, like it's going to happen. The question is just gonna be how, how capable is your body of mounting a defensive response to the lipid peroxidation that is induced by the fish oil? That the actual products that people consider beneficial from fish oil, like the resolvins and these types of things are per oxidized portions of the fatty acids.

[01:06:21] So it's like. That's what you're shooting for is the lipid, is some peroxidation stuff. The eicosanoids and signaling molecules are peroxidized polyunsaturated fatty acids. The enzymes peroxidize them and then that gives them their effects. So like you're asking for lipid peroxidation products no matter which way you go in the process. And yeah, so it's. That's why I like this argument around like this form and that form. And this form is less peroxide and this one's more. And this and that it's like, it's all going to be peroxidized. Like we're going to all get to the party somehow. Some people are walking, some people are taking a bike, some people are flying, but we're all getting there.

[01:07:01] Danny

[01:07:01] You forgot to mention the most important part that you can make a lot of money selling cod liver oil. So that's really what I think this is, not necessarily for Delauer, but for You need the fermented cod liver oil, Danny, because that stuff is special. Like 80 per bottle.

[01:07:16] Mike

[01:07:17] When I was, when I was doing it, when I found the Westin a price stuff, my mom was doing that and she actually was buying the butter oil for the activate factor X vitamin K and then the cod liver stuff. And she had me take the cod liver. I remember the first time I took, I literally vomited it up. I could not, and I was burped up fish oil. And so I took it like three times, two or two or three times. Like, mom, I cannot take this. This is disgusting. Like, I don't even care how good it is for me. I cannot swallow it. Like I want to gag every single time. So that was my indication personally that without any research, without any thought processes, that the stuff was gross. And even when I, when I was working on a brain injury unit, they were giving brain injured patients, Pharmaceutical grade fish oil or, or EPA or DHA to help improve their brain function. I remember every time I opened the capsules, sometimes I would have to cut open the capsules to, to squeeze them into the cups because I had to feed people through, through stomach tubes. And it was absolutely disgusting. The smell, like just. Terrible, terrible smell and for me, before doing any research for the fish oil stuff, I was like, man, even if this was good for me, like who wants to eat this? This is really bad.

[01:08:31] Jay Feldman

[01:08:32] How awful. I mean, it's not that it matters too much, like it's going to peroxidize if someone's healthy, but if they're in a state like that and already dealing with massive amounts of lipid peroxidation and oxidative or reductive stress going on to then add fish oil to that kind of system, I mean, that's awful.

[01:08:48] D anny

[01:08:49] Awfully good

[01:08:50] mike Fave

[01:08:50] The stuff that, I mean, the medical system stuff, the tube feeding that we were giving them is some of them is there's like, there's different tube feedings, but the general base for tube feedings is maltodextrin, fructooligosaturide, some types of synthetic vitamins, and then soybean oil plus, Some, they have like a high omega three, one that has like the different algae oils that they use. It's like the app and then the protein in there's like vital wheat protein and then like purified casein isolate. So it's like our vital wheat gluten, things like that. So, I mean, they're the fish oil is the least of the problems in that circumstance, the entire situation is just. Just an absolute nightmare. Cause the new, the other thing is the caloric intake for, for those people's also extremely low. A lot of the they're measured with dietitians through formulas, like through calculations of estimated energy expenditure, but with the inactivity plus it's usually like an 1800 calorie or. Or 1, 600 calorie formula or something that people tend to waste away as well. It's a, that whole circumstance is pretty bad and inside the, the hospital with formula feeding and medications and whatnot. So, you know, plus you get your SSRIs and whatever else.

[01:10:04] Danny

[01:10:05] So here's the last clip of Dillauer talking about colorblue, but everybody's different. Everybody, like someone that's going to have a higher degree of inflammation.

[01:10:13] Might be better off with a higher dose of it, but if it's rancid, I mean then you're doing yourself more harm And there's guys like Jay Feldman that are kind of talking about that now where it's saying okay If you have a rancid fish oil or a rancid omega 6 or a rancid polyunsaturated fat in the first place That's gonna be more detrimental than any potential benefit you get from it So do you think that most of the fish oil supplements that are available are more harmful than helpful?

[01:10:38] It's a good question. Like, for example, if I go to Costco, they have like, you know, their Kirkland brand or some of these other, at scale, like, probably pretty, they at least write on the label, like, very, very regulated and what kind of standards they're adhering to, etc. But in general, like, I don't know, like, how would you?

[01:10:57] Yeah, I'd say if you walk into the average store, I don't necessarily want to put Costco on the spot, but if you walk into the standard store, most of them are probably doing more harm than good. Okay. Yeah, but that's not to say that a good Omega 3 doesn't do you good, right? Yeah. It's, and I don't want to get on my high horse and just like tout cod liver oil, but I just think that cod liver oil is like the most stable form.

[01:11:15] Danny

[01:11:16] That sounds really confusing to parse, given what he said, if you were taking him at face value, that seems pretty difficult for that person.

[01:11:25] Mike Fave

[01:11:25] I think Jay already made the argument, right? It's like, his argument is that if you're in a higher inflammatory state, you need more fish oil, which if you were, so say you had metabolic syndrome, right? Or obesity or something along those lines, you have higher ROS. So, you're already going to generate more reactive oxygen species, and then you'll What gets attacked by reactive oxygen species? Proteins, DNA, and lipids. And which lipids are most susceptible to reactive oxygen species stress? Polyunsaturated fatty acids. So like, even when you look in the disease processes, like coronary artery disease, or metabolic syndrome, or kidney disease, like, as you guys have said before, you see lipid peroxides, and you see high amounts of ROS, you see energetic dysfunction with high amounts of ROS production, and then oxidized polyunsaturated fatty acids with distorted cellular structures. So, if you are under inflammation, if you have if you have metabolic problems, If you are running a really high fat, low carbohydrate diet and really pushing fatty acid oxidation, you will have higher ROS. So dumping really peroxidizable fatty acids with Omega 3s being the most peroxidizable, particularly long chain Omega 3s, then you are much more likely to oxidize them in that, in that contextual cellular environment.

[01:12:45] So it's like, that's, it's not, it's a weird argument to make. It's like to talk about that. If you, you know, if you're taking a peroxidized omega 3, it's probably not going to be that, you know, it's probably not going to be that great for your health, but if you're sick and you have more ROS, you have more oxidative stress. Well, then it's a good to take it. And it's like, if you are making the argument that you are blocking cyclooxygenase and lipoxyoxygenase, the enzymes that will oxidize polyunsaturated fatty acids. So if you're going to take it to block those. And you're saying, Oh, you're going to block inflammation by blocking those enzymes with omega 3s. Fine. Sure. You could make the argument there, but then it's like, why don't you just use aspirin? You don't have to deal with lipid peroxidation products and you also are blocking the inflammatory mediator production. So it's like you can go, plus there's downsides, obviously what we're getting at to using highly peroxidized fats to go about things in that type of way. There's other ways to do it. And then there's different studies looking at basically you can compare, there's some studies comparing high polyunsaturated fatty acids from omega six, high polyunsaturated fatty acids from omega three, and then low polyunsaturated fatty acids. Again, these aren't randomized controlled trials. These are animal studies, but in the animal studies, The, the low polyunsaturated fatty acid group tends to do pretty well compared to the other groups in terms of both inflammation and immunosuppression.

[01:14:11] Danny

[01:14:11] Got it. Okay, so let's move on to...

[01:14:13] jay Feldman

[01:14:14] I want to add a couple things in here. So, first thing I'd like to say is, I'm, we'd be happy to have Thomas on and talk about these things.

[01:14:23] He seems pretty open to changing his view or like discussing these things. He's shifted his view as far as, or it seems, as far as carbon take and fasting to some extent. And I think we're mostly in agreement on the fish oil situation too. You know, we've got the first part, which is that we agree that if the fish oil is already oxidized, that is more harmful than helpful.

[01:14:42] And then it's just the recognition that regardless of whether it's oxidized before it comes in, it went by the time it's digested. And then also by the time it's used internally, it will then be oxidized. And so we are calming, causing more harm than Benefit. And we cited a number of these studies in a couple of episodes on energy balance podcast.

[01:15:03] We talked about cod liver oil specifically as something it was an episode 91. We talked about that specifically incited studies specifically showing that the consumption of it will of cod liver oil will still become, you know, that will become oxidized in the intestines after digestion. And then also afterward, you know, that part aside, just if it's consumed, you see higher levels of lipid peroxides. So I don't think it really matters what, I mean, of course it matters to some extent, but it doesn't matter so much what the quality is that you're consuming, because they're all going to really end up in a, in pretty much the same situation. The, the other thing too, we, I mean, there's a lot when it comes to the fish oil, so there's a, we have a series that will probably be out by the time this is posted, it'll be episodes 105 through 108, where we dig into the whole fish oil and lifespan and conversation and why, even though there are some studies suggesting it may be beneficial when you actually look deeper, there's a lot of evidence against that and showing again, increased lipid peroxides, increased incorporation of the membrane, causing aging and mortality and a number of different disease processes and impairing mitochondrial function. And so. I would definitely reference those for the actual studies and mechanisms and things.

[01:16:13] Danny

[01:16:13] Okay, we'll switch on to the basics section where we're going to talk about water today. And I don't recall, are we talking about drinking water? Are we talking about cellular water? It was drinking, right? It's kind of everything, right?

[01:16:25] Mike Fave

[01:16:25] I thought about it in terms of everything. Oh, boy, that's going to be very complicated. I was thinking the more basic you never want Mike to say everything.

[01:16:36] Danny

[01:16:36] Well, I think it's a good like I'd be interested to see where you guys are at with this, but like I think it's a good public service announcement that more water.

[01:16:45] ingesting it is not necessarily a good thing. And in fact, if a person's really low thyroid, that could be harmful. And so I think that's not common knowledge in the Ray or the bioenergetic world. And I have a 45 minute story. I could bore you guys with but I learned that even way before I knew who Ray Pete was, I would drink water and become freezing cold. It was like clockwork. It would happen every single time. And then TMI, but I'd kind of have a E. D. later on in the day. If I, after I drank water and I, I would know specifically if I was seeing my girlfriend not to drink too much water. I, I, I like figured it out way before I knew who Ray Peat was, like, maybe like 2007 or eight or something. And so then when I got into his work and I was understanding that when the metabolic rate is low, a person has a hard time regulating their water economy. And then the tissues are hypo, or the blood rather, is hypotonic, lacking sodium. And then you add more water into the situation and that will activate prolactin and prolactin can cause infertility issues. And I was like, Oh my God, I can't believe there's actually an answer to that weird experience I had. But I, even when talking to people on Zoom, the people be drinking water and stuff. And I'll be like, I wouldn't have that kind of idea. But what's your guys experience with it, was,

[01:18:01] Mike Fave

[01:18:02] for me, with the water piece. I tend to think of water or I think of it in terms of hydration and I think of multiple pieces. So you need the actual fluid, that's important, but you also need energy production and you need electrolytes for things to work well. So the energy production at the cell is what allows the water to be structured and then having adequate electrolytes with the water allows it to move in the right places. So it's energy plus electrolytes plus water. So you really want to be getting all those things. Just, you Chugging water for me, when I went through the whole water thing as well, going through all the health stuff and I would just be peeing all the time, just like peeing it right out. And it's because it was, you know, you're not holding onto it. The other, the other experience was when I went very low carb, I also had problems staying hydrated. And I think the data is related to how some of the dietary diet is set up because you don't have carbohydrates, you're not going to store glycogen to any large extent, you're gonna be quite flat in that perspective.

[01:18:55] But then also I think the adjustments with the electrolytes in those diets and then also because energy production is adjusted, you're largely oxidizing fatty acids. I think that there's changes in ability to stay hydrated. So for, and then also up regulations in the stress hormones is also peeing all the time as well. Literally multiple times a day in the night, all this type of stuff. And people who are under significant stress, I tend to see them also that for some people, that will be their symptom is you're urinating all the time. And that's through up regulations and the RAS system and and some of the, and like prolactin, things along those lines, you can, you can start to drive issues with asthma regulation and also the stress hormones, the aldosterone can start to trigger this the constant frequent urination or even impact of glucocorticoids and mineral corticoid receptors and things like that. So I tend to see those things. Being real, all three of those things being really, really important and in terms of hydration. Now, what an example that I think is really telling of just how important those three things are, particularly energy production with hydration is sepsis. And I saw this in the ICU over and over again. So if you have somebody who comes in and they have a serious bacterial infection and they go like really septic, their whole body swells and So like, legs swell, arms swell, the belly is swollen with fluids. And then for guys, the, the scrotum actually gets massive like watermelon size from fluid and what's going on is the, the inflammatory mediators that are produced in response to endotoxin in these infections, they, and the endotoxin itself, damage energy production, cause massive basal dilation and shifts in fluid balance because it because of signaling through nitric oxide and all these, all of these different components and essentially the, the cells can no longer structure the water properly. And then the, the intravascular and the third space, which is kind of the space between cells, it, the water just cannot stay in, in the right places. So essentially when energy fails, when there's massive inflammation, swelling will occur, like swelling hands down occurs and sepsis is like an extreme example of that. But even in states of hypothyroidism, Swelling is one of the symptoms for many people. And when you look at other low energy states, things like heart failure, you also see swelling. Now, in heart failure, part of the problem is the, the vascular system is not functioning well and there's, there's actually interesting components here. When you start to think about the heart, not necessarily as a pump, because it's, it's almost impossible for the heart to actually pump all of the blood. To all of the areas of the body, like it can't generate enough force. So there's more things going on in terms of blood flow. And so in things like heart failure, I think what you're seeing is actually energy, energetic failure, and then the ability for water to flow appropriately through the vasculature by having the actual, the structured water line, the, the vasculature and have the, the charge differentials to push the water through kind of like a magnetic train. It, when that starts to fail, the water won't flow, it'll pool. And in those circumstances, again, energy failure is showing you that the, the hydration is really about getting water to the places where you actually need it. And it's less so about just having water because you can, I, I have had people in the, in the ICU, they have water, they're completely swollen, but their blood pressures and, and their functions are like their blood pressures in the dirt and then their actual like functioning of their tissues is terrible. They're all the water's in the wrong place. It's not in the vascular space. It's not reaching the cells. They're having issues with hypoxia or lack of nutrition or excess lactic acid production, which is indicative of metabolic dysfunction. And those circumstances, again, like they're hydrated, but not appropriately. And that's why I think energy and electrolytes in conjunction with adequate fluid intake. is massively important. So when I think of water, I tend to think of, tend to think of things in, in those considerations. The last piece is that like other organs are important for water balance for hydration as well like the liver makes proteins that keeps the fluid inside the vascular space and the kidney is constantly maintaining the bath of fluids that the, that the bloodstream is providing to, to the tissues. So if there's, if there's damage or issues in any of those areas. You can have issues with hydration. If you're under stress or there's metabolic problems, you can have issues with hydration. So it's more than just drinking water to actually hydrate the tissues.

[01:23:32] Jay Feldman

[01:23:33] Yeah, to zoom out a little bit and kind of provide the big picture here when it comes to just like the basics of water, what essentially we're saying is that the whole point of liquid, having liquid, is to provide hydration, which means that the water is getting into the cells and being used properly, it's staying in the vasculature and being used properly, and That requires a number of things, as you kind of mentioned, Mike, it requires that we have proper electrolyte balance.

[01:23:58] So for low in sodium, potassium, magnesium, or calcium, that will cause issues here, which I'll get to, but that will prevent hydration. If we are, if ourselves are not producing enough energy, they also can't hold onto the water. They can't keep it structured. And that will also cause swelling and whatnot. So we need to have enough energy. And we are told constantly drink a lot of water. And don't consume salt consume less salt, less is better. And the problem is that that's really bad for hydration. It causes it basically when we're consuming a lot of plain water without electrolytes, it causes essentially low electrolytes in the blood. You mentioned hyponatremia or hypotonic blood Danny. And so that causes a stress reaction because when there's not no salt in the blood, it, we can't actually maintain proper blood volume. So then it activates. The RAS system that you mentioned, Mike, the release of aldosterone among other things to cause us to retain sodium because we need that. And what happens is then instead of excreting sodium through the kidneys, we start to excrete potassium and magnesium. So when we do this, we're also going to cause then deficiencies in those minerals. The other thing is that the aldosterone will directly contribute to swelling and impair energy production as part of the stress system. And so, When we just consume plain water and don't consume enough salt, it's going to impair hydration, contribute to swelling, contribute to stress, which is when people talk about water increasing your metabolism. What it really does is just increase stress and that will short term increase your metabolic rate. And this is through catecholamines, norepinephrine, also the aldosterone and RAS system. And so What we're essentially getting at is that just consuming lots of plain water is generally not a good idea for most cases. And we can mention the cases where maybe it does make sense, but that's because it doesn't have the electrolytes that we need. And it doesn't necessarily support our ability to produce energy. And so, so many people are causing imbalances here, and then that causes downstream issues like chronic inflammation, like hypertension as a result of these things, it causes vasoconstriction, causes low blood volume, causes aldosterone, causes potassium, potassium and magnesium loss. So this is really problematic. And that's also not to mention that a lot of the reason or one other main reason why people drink a lot of water is so that they don't eat as much to fill their, their gut so that they're not as hungry, right? It's like, if you think you're hungry, just drink some water, right? Or eat a salad. It's nearly the same. And that's also coming at a huge cost because we know that we need to get nutrients from food. We need to get enough calories. Those things are really important, and we're not gonna have enough energy for not doing that. So this is when we're talking about our experiences here and how drinking a lot of water, which we all had experiences doing cause really negative effects for us. This is why it was happening. And Again, Mike, you know, we were together, so I can vouch for you. Like we would always have a water bottle with us, maybe two. We're constantly filling them up, like nonstop, always drinking water. Definitely. Before it was a trend.

[01:26:50] Mike Fave

[01:26:50] Oh yeah. Before it was a trend. We had the glass bottles because the plastic and everything. And then. Like years after they started selling all those, we definitely missed the opportunity there. Yeah. And it was not supportive of our health at all.

[01:27:04] Jay Feldman

[01:27:05] I think for me, it was one of the more damaging things preventing me from eating enough, always causing cold hands and feet. Like Danny said, I mean, it's just.

[01:27:11] Definitely major issue. And we were also peeing all the time. I think it's something we all mentioned and that P was really clear. And so that's a pretty good sign. If you are peeing very frequently and it's always clear, that's a sign that you're not actually hydrating. The liquid is coming in and again, going right out as it came in.

[01:27:25] And so that's generally also a sign of stress. If you're waking up in the night, peeing, that's also typically a sign of stress. So those are kind of clear indicators here.

[01:27:36] Danny

[01:27:37] I was gonna say, if you take the salad and you mix corn oil with water and then you douse the lettuce, that is an okay meal though, right?

[01:27:44] Mike Fave

[01:27:45] I think you have to do cod liver oil plus corn oil, and then you have to add a side of walnuts, Danny, for the linoleic acid. Got it. Okay. Fair enough. Or flax seeds, excuse me.

[01:27:57] Jay Feldman

[01:27:58] So there's a couple of things I want to mention here as far as like what we do want to do. And also, so one other thing, Dr. Mercola had shared episode 21 of the Energy Balance podcast with me and Mike, where we talked about this.

[01:28:08] We talked about the problems with too much water. Yeah. Yeah. too little salt, how it causes high blood pressure. And I've had a number of people reach out from them saying that they reduce their water intake and bump their electrolyte intake up, including salt. They feel way better. Their blood pressure dropped pretty immediately. They're sleeping through the night better, just a number of things. So, I mean, yeah, definitely like can make a huge difference in a really short period of time. And it's really unfortunate that in the mainstream, we're just told more water for every issue. If you're dehydrated, if your skin is, Dry. If you have a headache, you know, and when you look at the literature, it does not support that drinking more water helps these things. And then a lot of times it makes it worse. And so what I will say as far as what we want to do is our physiologic sensors for thirst and for salt are really tightly regulated. And so we don't have to force ourselves to drink water. We don't have to force ourselves to consume too little salt because our own signals are really accurate for that.

[01:29:02] And the whole idea that you're, by the time you're thirsty, you're dehydrated is not accurate. And again, there's research that we cited in that episode 21 about that. So the simple solution here is drink when you're thirsty, don't Eat salt when you want to eat salt and, you know, salt your food. And that's generally a good thing. I will say caveat here, don't do this all. Like don't make a huge change all at once. Like change it a little gradually. Cause initially you can have a bump up and things like blood pressure, if you cause a massive, you know, increase in salt in a short period of time. But the other thing too, is we want to make sure we're getting the other electrolytes, like potassium, magnesium, calcium, if you consume a lot of salt. And you're low in those other ones. For example, in the research, they show this with potassium. It will cause an increase in blood pressure. But if you have adequate potassium, it won't. So we just need to get adequate amounts of those electrolytes. and consume liquid through all different forms. And you can consume liquid that already has the electrolytes built in and some sugar too, to help you produce energy that can be from juice or milk.

[01:29:58] And those are really well, really great sources for hydration and for health. So that would be generally like a good place to start and just drink it when you're thirsty, don't force it. And one caveat I want to throw out here too, when we're talking electrolytes, That does not mean consuming massive amounts of salt in the form of LMNT. So, the reason why I say that is because I can't tell you how many clients I've had who are using LMNT and it's not supporting them because they're adding salt beyond what their taste is for and their food. And LMNT It is, you know, like great marketing Rob's done a really good job there. It makes sense. If you are a low carb athlete, that's losing a ton of electrolytes and can't hold on to electrolytes due to a lack of insulin due to the low carb state. But if you're not in that scenario, which I don't think is a good scenario to be in at the first place. Next. But if you're not in that scenario, you don't want to be adding in all sorts of extra amounts of salt. You're not going to be losing salt to this massive extent because of like a chronic stress state. So instead, I would just try to get those electrolytes more from food and juices, which have a better balance anyway of, you know, sodium to potassium, magnesium, calcium, all of that. And yeah, I would just be careful with something like almond tea. Yeah. I've been getting that as well.

[01:31:09] Mike Fave

[01:31:10] So many people are like, should I take almond tea? I'm like, It's expensive flavored salt, I mean, if you want to use it to, you know, get a little extra salt because you have a craving for salt and that's fine, but I think that, yeah, I don't, I don't think it's like making a massive, like a massive difference, although I do think salt's important. And one thing I want to, there's a couple of things I want to touch on here that you mentioned Jay, so not getting enough salt triggers the RAS system and aldosterone release. That's hugely problematic because the RAS system, so with all the COVID stuff that was going on, people are talking about angiotensin 2, the RAS system's main mediators through angiotensin 2, and then things like endothelin 1. And those plus aldosterone are directly negative for the vascular function. So long term exposure, to angiotensin 2 to the RAS system also up regulates the sympathetic nervous system, and then also aldosterone and endothelin 1 cause oxidative stress directly at the vascular system, cause damage to the endothelial cells, and over time, in response to those things, you can start to see vascular stiffness or the ability of the vasculature to relax appropriately becomes impaired. So essentially, it's almost like a chronic, it's an excitatory state. of the vasculature overall. So those, they're directly damaging. So you don't want to be optimizing for that system and really low salt intakes with really high plain water intakes will optimize for that system specifically and cause a wasting of potassium. So that's important and that the wasting of potassium is through aldosterone as you mentioned. Now, the other thing I think is really important is a lot of people, they find the salt stuff like salt is helpful. And then you see it in some of the different diets, really heavily promoting salt. And then there's books about the benefits of salt. Salt is great. And it's useful like for digestive stuff. It can be quite helpful because a lot of things are dependent upon sodium to be absorbed. They have a sodium co transporter and then salt in and of itself can lower aldosterone in that cascade. But it's, I think it's, really important to reiterate the actual importance of potassium as well. You don't want to be getting a really low potassium intake and a really high sodium intake that also causes problems with a variety of systems inside the body. And a lot of Western diets are built around that because you have a grain based diet with tons of salt additives and tons of phosphate additives and minimal calcium intake and minimal potassium intake. And that is highly problematic. So having adequate salt intake is good. It's actually necessary and vital on the background of having adequate potassium and also adequate magnesium and adequate calcium as well. And the reason we're not saying phosphorus is because it's really easy to get phosphorus. You can get it from any grains, you can get it from meats, things along those lines. So most people are doing okay in the phosphorus department. It's a calcium, magnesium, and the potassium is usually where people are struggling on a western diet. But when you come to a whole foods, whole foods, paleo, plant based, whatever the deal is. If you're not eating a lot of packaged processed food options, then your sodium intake will precipitously drop because most people's salt intake is coming from added, added salt into the packaged foods. So usually when I construct diets with people, I usually can never hit the DRI with salt unless I incorporate seafood. And that's because most of those foods are not masked behind salt. So salt will be helpful in those circumstances, but again, on the background of adequate potassium intake. And there's also, there's studies showing that if potassium intake is adequate. you will likely not see like drastic increases in blood pressure and responses to increases in sodium within like a a reasonable intake range. So the other minerals or electrolytes are, I think, extremely important to keep in mind too overall. And just as a personal example, here, when I came here into Asia, it's very hot and I was sweating quite a bit and I wasn't really adding too much salt to my food. I did not feel very good. Like I was, But my appetite wasn't as good as it was. Digestion was suffering a bit. I was peeing quite a bit. And then I realized that I was like sweating out a ton of salt. And when I started adding in a decent amount of salt to my food, because my food was all fruit and meat and things like that. So, so my sodium intake when I was plugged it into chronometer after the first couple weeks here is like it was negative. And so once adding salt made a huge difference for me overall, I think that salt is one of those things, one of those sneaky things that could be really helpful for people when they come to some of these different types of dietary setups and they're not really looking at how much salt they're taking in.

[01:35:36] But again, it's really important on the background of a lot of other electrolytes because I had people just dump tons of salt in and get problems, swelling and all this type of stuff. And, but they had like. Very minimal potassium intake because it's like I'm going to add salt on my carnivore diet or something like that or my carnivore plus Granulated sugar or honey diet because now I have carbs and I'm hitting salt and yeah

[01:35:57] Danny

[01:35:58] Were you able to find nine non iodized salt in the Philippines? It was like impossible for me to find it there.

[01:36:03] Mike Fave

[01:36:04] We we purchased like there's a store here in one of the malls that has basically like American health food products. So we buy like Redmond, real salt, and some like high quality salts there, but in the regular supermarkets, finding some of the things that like we consider essentially you cannot, even the coconut oil here, it's like some of the worst.

[01:36:28] Some of the quality of it is so terrible that we have to go into the health food store, buy coconut oil marketed for the U. S. at a premium and shipped back to the Philippines.

[01:36:39] Dann

[01:36:39] Yeah. Yeah, I started traveling with salt after going to the Philippines because it was such a, such a big problem that I couldn't, couldn't find it at all there.

[01:36:47] Jay Feldman

[01:36:48] Well, and even worse in Latin America, it's often fluoridated. Yeah, yeah. Two quick things to add real quick one was just, you mentioned X or you mentioned phosphorus being really easy to get. And I do think there's often concerns with excess phosphorus. Maybe we'll have to add that in or do that soon for, uh, bioenergetic basics. But the one last caveat I wanted to mention is we're not saying never drink water or don't drink water at all. It's just consider when you're thirsty and make sure you're getting enough electrolytes. I know for me, if I've worked out and I'm sweating a lot, or if I'm in a really hot climate, as Mike was saying, or here where it's the, you know, pretty high in altitude and relatively dry, sometimes I, it's hard to get enough. liquid in without drinking some amount of plain water. And it's easy to get dehydrated without getting enough liquid in. So we're not saying never drink water. It's just consider it in this larger context. Don't force it. Make sure you're getting the other electrolytes. Consider that things like juice and milk and other drinks could be better because they're packaged with those other things.

[01:37:49] So yeah, I just wanted to make that caveat. I have had some people come to me, like not drinking any water and not getting enough liquid in and being dehydrated. And they're concerned about consuming any amount of water. And so I do want to throw that in there. It's okay to consume water in, in the right context.

[01:38:03] Mike Fave

[01:38:04] Yeah. Drink. I have water regularly just between meals because I sweat so much here because it's so hot all the time. Always dumping out, especially if I work out or if I have to walk anywhere. So water, I think having water, I have water routine meals and I'll have juice. at my meals overall. And that is super helpful. The other thing is if you become dehydrated, you will release another stress hormone, antidiuretic hormone. So you don't want to like dehydrate, but you also want to overhydrate. With all these things, there's like a nice happy medium for a lot of the stuff, right? The same thing with sodium potassium intake, like slamming salt is not a good thing either. Like just tons and tons and tons of salt. So, but there is like you do actually, there is an adequate amount of salt that you need for optimal function.

[01:38:49] Danny

[01:38:49] Okay, moving on to bad takes and is Ben Bikman becoming a regular on this section? Did we already talk about him or no? Is this the first time? Oh, got it. Okay. Okay, maybe in our library of things to discuss more than one time. Got it. Yeah. Okay, Ben Bikman says, new study further validates the view that hyperglycemia causes insulin resistance. One key to controlling metabolic health is controlling consumption of carbs to prevent. Constant spikes. So this is very important to understand in the low carb and very understand important to understand in the bioenergetic realm, because this is a huge point of contention. So let's hear what Ben says. With a problem as complicated as insulin resistance, it's no surprise that there are multiple causes. You know, by now that I harp on glucose and insulin as causes of insulin resistance. This view is validated with a paper that was just published today in the journal metabolism. And they found that by bumping up glucose levels in healthy adults, that within just 24 to 48 hours, that people had become demonstrably insulin resistant. This is so important because think about how most people eat. We have been told to eat multiple times per day, up to six times a day, and that the bulk of what we eat should be carbohydrate. This certainly means most people are spending almost every waking moment in the state of elevated glucose levels. As the study shows, elevated blood glucose causes insulin resistance.

[01:40:21] Danny That last statement just seems like a total stretch, but wait till we get to the study. Yeah.

[01:40:28] Mike Fave

[01:40:29] It's just, it's just that, like, this is the most disingenuous take on this that I think is. One of the most disingenuous takes that's possible, especially when you look at what was done with the study, like to, to get to that extension and word things this type of way, this is like literally an advertisement. It's not a, this is not, I don't, I don't even know if you read the study, like with the way that, the way that was presented, it's like very problematic. Especially when you, like the study was actually quite interesting. And like the things that the authors talk about. They have numerous studies in PubMed. After he referenced the study, I went and looked up a couple of the other studies. They look at the effects of hyperinsulinemia, hyperglucagonemia, the effect of hyperglycemia on beta cells and alpha cells, which produce insulin and glucagon. So, there's a lot of, really interesting research. But as far as like the idea that you can just eat, like if you're eating carbohydrates three times a day, that the blood sugar spikes that you have after that is causing insulin resistance based on this paper is not even close to what the paper is describing or, or like the reality of the papers. Actually, it's just, If you read the paper, and I'm sure Jay, you're about to tell us about it. You break down the paper for us, Jay. Yeah,

[01:41:52] Jay Feldman

[01:41:53] so the title is Chronic Physiologic Hyperglycemia Impairs Insulin Mediated Suppression of Plasma Glucagon Concentration in Healthy Humans. And they did two different studies here where essentially, and so the, the let the, like, in the conclusion, the first sentence is sustained 48 to 72 hour physiologic hyperglycemia caused whole body insulin resistance. So what they did in these two studies, which weren't exactly the same, but essentially what they did is. They had people getting constant influx of glucose to their veins, like, like through a clamp. Infusions. They, it was infused. They had an IV in there and they were infusing a glucose solution to keep blood glucose at a high level, a certain level. For 48 to 72 hours straight.

[01:42:42] Danny

[01:42:42] Those people probably felt so good.

[01:42:44] Jay Feldman

[01:42:45] Definitely. So it's, I mean, it's, It's helpful. It's interesting to do for like parsing out physiological mechanisms, and we can talk about some of the details there, but has virtually nothing to do with a human eating food, like even eating a high carb western diet.

[01:43:02] This is, this is nothing to do with that. Like, you're never going to see anything like this. I mean, If you, even if you eat a, if you, if you're insulin resistant and you're eating six meals a day, that include carbohydrates, you're getting a spike that is maybe getting up 50 milligrams per deciliter, which is what they used an increase of 50 milligrams a deciliter per deciliter. And then it's going to come down and it's not like if you're insulin resistant, it'll stay up for a bit longer, but it will come down and you sleep for ideally at least eight hours where you're not constantly getting. know, this constant glucose, you go, you know, time between meals. Like, it's not like it would be the equivalent of, I mean, not even, it's worse than, but it's like, if somebody literally had like a massive bag of Skittles and just literally did not stop eating them for 48 to 72 hours straight, like there's nothing to do.

[01:43:53] Mike Fave

[01:43:53] Well, if you go into the mechanisms two of the paper and you look at what the researcher's discussion is, first of all, they explicitly state in the paper, and, and there's multiple papers that these authors do, but throughout these papers, High free fatty acids causes insulin resistance or high free fatty acids and pairs insulin metabolism.

[01:44:15] So, and the reason I'm saying this is because I, if I don't, I, I don't know, I know very minimal about this guy, Dr. Ben Dickman's work. I haven't read any of his stuff. I'm probably never going to read it after watching this post. Like it's very unlikely, but. I think he promotes like a high fat type of, high fat, low carb type of deal, but the authors are already recognizing that the high circulating free fatty acids are causing insulin resistance and adjustments in insulin metabolism and all this type of stuff.

[01:44:44] And they explicitly state that in the paper. Point number one is say this does, say this infusing glucose for 72 hours is causing insulin resistance. The solution is then not to not ever have glucose and run on free fatty acids to solve insulin resistance and the researchers are clear about that. So like regardless of whatever perspective is being implied. With like, oh, we should eat a low carb diet then it even in the paper that's not being discussed.

[01:45:11] Danny

[01:45:12] Yeah, I just want to point out like we're always saying like all these papers are so stupid a little like I like we we happen to agree with the NIFA or the free fatty acids causing the problem. But we're not saying because they said it, therefore it's true. I just want to point that out.

[01:45:30] Mike Fave

[01:45:31] Well, and the other thing I was going to point out before we were talking, so Ben Bikman is a PhD, right? Yes. He has a, so if he's, if he has a PhD and he's writing papers, like you can already see, like he's reading this paper and that was his take on the paper, which is highly questionable if you start to go through the paper, especially because again, as you mentioned, Jay, first of all. You're, in what circumstance would you ever have, besides this apparently, get a 72 hour infusion of glucose to keep your blood glucose levels elevated 50 mg per deciliter over their baseline? Never. Never. There's no way, even, even if you ate in the night time, you would still have gaps between all of your meals.

[01:46:14] Like you, it wouldn't, this is not something that could occur overall. I get this, this wouldn't happen. So there's that piece that that's the first piece that I think this is, this context is irrelevant to the conversation around glucose being a cause of diabetes. Now, this is very helpful. this type of paper is helpful in understanding what is going on in people who are dealing with hyperglycemia and dealing with impaired glucose tolerance and things along those lines.

[01:46:46] And so, there's actually a lot of interesting components because I read some of these other authors papers after I saw this, just because I got interested in some, after I read this paper, I got interested in some of the other things. that they were talking about. And so, this, there's some really interesting things that they talk about. There's some quotes here from some of the other papers. They have another paper. It's called Effective Mild Physiologic Hyperglycemia on Insulin Secretion, Insulin Clearance, and Insulin Sensitivity in Healthy Glucose Tolerant Subjects. So, the first thing that they talk about, they say beta cell dysfunction and insulin resistance in liver and muscle represent the core pathophysiologic defects in type 2 diabetes mellitus. So, the first thing that I want to discuss here is that insulin, a lot of people think of insulin resistance like this whole body entire thing, but insulin's major job is to push carbohydrate into fat, muscle, and liver for glycogen storage and for future stores. The rest of the body doesn't use the GLUT4 receptor to absorb glucose. So, that first piece I think is really important that the access is these types of things. It's overall, for the picture as we get into the rest. The other thing that they start to talk about is that persistent hyperglycemia in studies has been shown to impair insulin mediated glucose disposal in humans and induce beta cell dysfunction in animal models. Prolonged exposure of human islets, so these are the areas where insulin is produced, to hyperglycemia. Decreases insulin content and impairs secretion. So, what they, what this, what I'm gonna get to and what I'm talking about, what they kind of show in this paper is that there, the, the cells that produce insulin, the beta cells, and then also the cells that are responding to insulin, can only produce so much insulin in a given amount of time, the beta cells, and can only respond to insulin so much in a given amount of time. So, if you chronically infuse, like, insulin, glucose continuously so that you always need insulin, what happens is they actually cause fatigue to the beta cells. So, the pancreas literally was fatigued from having this insulin, this glucose being infused all the time. And basically the problem was, in normal people, the beta cells produce a certain amount of insulin, pro insulin, and they have a pool of this, a kind of like a storage there, and when you have a meal, it has this store that it can release. But if you have chronic hyperglycemia, in this circumstance, you're infusing glucose all the time for 72 hours straight. What winds up happening is that the cells have to make that pro insulin that turns into insulin on the fly. And that actually starts to become stressful for the cell to some extent because there's only so much you can do in a given amount of time. And so this is helpful to understand what's going on in people with type 2 diabetes. The other thing that they talk about is that the people became hyper insulinemic in these types of studies because the ability of the cells to actually degrade the insulin over time became impaired because the way the insulin is degraded is it attaches to the receptor and it's internalized in the cell and then it's degraded. But if you're constantly in flooding with glucose all the time, then the insulin doesn't get fully cleared. And so then you get this hyper insulinemia state going on overall. So, what this is showing you is like, this, this study, these types of studies aren't bad studies. These studies are showing us what's going on in people who are dealing with chronically elevated blood glucose levels, which they have another paper talking about is generally a function of glucagon.

[01:50:18] So it's glucagon continuously releasing the gluconeogenesis or inducing gluconeogenesis promoting that blood glucose output. And then with this chronic glucose response, you're having a problem with the beta cells and being able to keep up with insulin production and the cells responding to it. And so the dysfunction isn't just carbohydrate causing this problem, it's like what's going on with, All the regulatory pathways. They go on to say here they go on to say here that, and these are some of the things that I said. In response to an acute hyperglycemic stimulus, insulin slash c c peptide, which is a component of proinsulin, are secreted from a readily releasable pool.

[01:50:56] However, after prolonged exposure to glucose, insulin secretion is more dependent on release of recently synthesized proinsulin. The present results are compatible with a defect in the beta cell's ability to respond to an acute hyperglycemic stimulus by enhanced secretion of newly formed insulin. So basically at a certain threshold, like it's the cells cannot keep up. And the way the researchers. in this study actually determined that these people had become insulin resistant, at least in some of the other studies, was they, after they ran the 48 hour or 72 hours of continuously infused glucose, they exposed them to a hyperglycemic clamp. And what they did was they increased blood glucose levels to something like 300 milligrams per deciliter after they were chronically exposed. to this high, the 50 milligram per deciliter insulin for 48 or 72 hours. And then they saw what the body's response was. And basically what they were showing was that at that point, like the cells ability to muster up a insulin production from the beta cells was impaired to some extent. And so was insulin sensitivity. That's where they actually saw the problem initially was in this hyperglycemic clamp and that's infusing tons of glucose. into the bloodstream overall. So, I think these papers are really interesting. They're really helpful to show what's going on in the type 2 diabetic state. But this is telling us absolutely nothing about eating carbohydrate on a regular basis and how the beta cells and alpha cells are responding in a normal person's circumstance. And then to promote that this, that eating carbohydrate Because it raises sugar acutely, it's causing this problem is laughable if you read this paper because what if you're seeing the mechanisms by which they're describing the problem, where the beta cells, they have this pool of insulin that's being released and that if you chronically have hyperglycemia, it's not responding. That doesn't happen in a normal context. Once you have your meal you have your insulin response to your meal and then things come back down to baseline and throughout that time your cells will be able to re synthesize insulin or whatever the deal is and then push it out for the next meal and whatnot. So that's, that's more of, that's what they're saying is going on here and I think it's, I don't know if you read the paper or not, but if you start to go through it, those are the things that you start to see.

[01:53:07] Jay Feldman

[01:53:08] Yeah. I think it's important to mention that what they did here was they're trying to create the deranged metabolic state of insulin resistance in a very short period of time. This has nothing to do with what actually causes this state in a normal physiologic context. And the other thing is, it's not like they cause these people to become diabetic, like they aren't in a permanently insulin resistant state or semi permanent, like somebody who is actually insulin resistant. I'm sure if they then gave him 24 hours of normal eating and then did the glucose tolerance test, they would have been fine. What they're inducing here is a temporary state. of insulin resistance and that has nothing to do with what causes it in a pathological state. And so if you want to think of things that will cause this sort of insulin resistance, a ketogenic diet, a low carb diet will do it easily. And, and people know this, I'm sure Ben Bigman knows this, that if you give somebody who's on a ketogenic diet and oral glucose tolerance test, they'll perform terribly. They're extremely insulin resistant. It's not because keto causes type two diabetes. You can make that argument, maybe super long term through various indirect mechanisms, but we're not trying to say like, yeah, most people have type two diabetes. Got it for being on a ketogenic diet. Like it's, it's He's trying to use this sort of study design as a way to support that certain dietary habits have anything that will cause insulin resistance is absolutely ridiculous. And again, like I think the ketogenic diet is a parallel mechanism.

[01:54:31] The other thing too is the whole his whole stance from what I understand as far as the underlying situation of insulin resistance is essentially that the cells have, you know, continued to get the glucose and they've continued to get the insulin spikes. And so they've gotten tired and fatigued and they no longer respond to insulin.

[01:54:47] And that is, has very little to what's going on here or what we would say really causes insulin resistance, which instead has to do with the cellular utilization of glucose being reduced, which then impairs glucose uptake of the cell causes hyperglycemia causes hyperglycaemia and also prevents insulin's actions in many ways. And any sort of overfeeding where you fully saturate the, the, all the tissues with glucose or I guess also fats if you're on a super low fat diet or low carb diet, those will cause states of insulin resistance. But this is not pathological insulin resistance like type 2 diabetes where the cells can't use the glucose.

[01:55:24] They're just temporarily overloaded with it. In this case, it took 48 to 72 hours of infusion of glucose. to cause that. But as I was saying, this is a temporary thing that would immediately go away as soon as they stopped getting huge floods of glucose. It's like, yeah, if you ate 8, 000 calories a day of carbohydrates and then took a glucose tolerance test, assuming that you're not like Michael Phelps and you're really active, you're just sitting around. And then you took an oral glucose tolerance test. Of course, you're going to perform poorly. Where, what are you, what do you think is going to happen physiologically to the glucose? And I mean, yeah, It's, it's absolutely ridiculous to draw any sort of conclusion here that this has anything to do with normal human feeding in any way, let alone normal carbohydrate, carbohydrate intake.

[01:56:07] Mike Fave

[01:56:07] These studies are helpful to understand what's going on, but the main thing to look at with all this type of stuff is, is what is going on with the metabolism at the cell and understanding like what is insulin's purpose. Like kind of the reason I framed it in the beginning is like insulin is pushing the carbohydrate into other tissues for storage. The other tissues are going to be using the carbohydrate, whether you have insulin or not. So it's really like, it's almost like in the way I see this too, is like if you were under starvation or if you were in a caloric deficit or whatever the deal is, the tissues that you start to break down are fat and muscle and then the tissues that are also responding to insulin are the tissue is fat and muscle to a large extent or liver, which has glycogen and liver also has glycogen broke down. So these are considered the overflow, the excess tissues to some extent by the body. So in states where you don't have enough substrate, you break down muscle tissue, you don't break down muscle glycogen, but you break down muscle proteins in order to, to create gluconeogenesis or to run gluconeogenesis and you'll break down fat tissue for fatty acids.

[01:57:06] When you have enough substrate available at you will release or you have a decent carbohydrate intake, you'll release the insulin and insulin will push to these tissues to increase your stores. So you're like looking at these things. It's like, of course, if you have a circumstance where you're running tons and tons of substrate into the system, there has to be a point where the system's like, okay, like, let me catch up to what we're doing overall.

[01:57:27] So the question is really what's going on at the cells. in response to these types of things. What is going on metabolically? And I think this does not answer that question at the cells. Maybe it helps us understand what's going on with the alpha cells and the beta cells of the pancreas in response to these altered signals.

[01:57:44] But what's initially causing the hyperglycemia for people who are dealing, for people who are dealing with the type 2 diabetes or the metabolic dysfunction, I think is actually the metabolic dysfunction peripherally first. That would be my argument. And then the system is getting deranged after that. through the, through this kind of access. So, this study doesn't answer that question. The study doesn't directly push into that and showing that like, the, the, the cells are having a metabolic issue directly overall. It's like, if we create like hyperglycemia for an extended period of time, then we cause problems. Like, yes, but it's like, for a diabetic, what is actually causing that hyperglycemia for extended periods of time for them? And I would argue that it's likely stress hormones, because those are the things that are doing that and alter metabolism peripherally.

[01:58:28] Jay Feldman

[01:58:29] Yeah, and just to add in one other thing, as far as the methods of this sort of study is if you're forcing hyperglycemia through a clamp and through infusion, You are inherently needing to keep a constant rate above what the tissues are utilizing, because otherwise, as soon as you get up to 150 milligrams per deciliter, it'll go back down. So you have to keep pumping more and more glucose beyond what the tissues are metabolizing. Like you are forcing that sort of situation. It's massive, massive amounts of glucose. Again, to also maintain that for 48 to 72 hours. It's like, yeah, of course, this is going to cause insulin resistance by oral glucose tolerance test has nothing to do with. The physiology of insulin resistance, what causes it and what's going on dietarily for somebody that's, that's causing the state.

[01:59:16] Danny

[01:59:16] Okay, fantastic stuff. Let's move on to tips and tricks and I can go first with this one and I'm sure this is pretty common with all of us, but I chronically am asked, I want to start making content. What should I do? And I'm sure we can all agree that you, I think like health content, they want, they want to do maybe what we're doing or something like that. And I think a lot of times somebody is inclined to ask me or maybe you guys or somebody else for permission to do something. And so I'd encourage them to just act, start making something whether it's a podcast or writing an article.

[01:59:50] Or creating graphics, whatever their strong suit is. They, what, what they felt they had to offer and just doing it without getting anybody's permission. And then whatever you do in the beginning, it's probably not going to be that great. And I'm sure if you guys go back to early podcasts, just like when I go back to early videos, I cringe like crazy, but it's just, you gotta have some kind of starting point, but I get that pretty regularly. And I think the starting is always the hardest part, but just trying to make some type of content and putting it out there. If that's something that you really wanted to do. So a little bit different from health and stuff, but I get that question. So so regularly that I wanted to address it. What about you, Jay?

[02:00:29] Jay Feldman

[02:00:30] Nice. I like it. My tip is to be picky with our food. And what I mean by this is. I think for one, we don't want to compare what we're eating to like average or typical. Like, I don't think that's a good barometer for whether what we're doing is beneficial to our health. But the other thing is we want to act as though, again, assuming we have the means for it and everything, we want to act as though we're in a state of physiological abundance. Where we're only eating the best quality things. And so when it comes to something like fruit, for example, it should be particularly ripe, like it should be really good and sweet. It should, you know, it should be ideally organic because most of the time it's going to be better quality and better tasting, there are always exceptions and certain things don't use as much pesticides, so you can get away with it in certain cases.

[02:01:17] But people, I think are, are hesitant to like, Like stay away from things that don't taste good or like throw out something that like isn't optimal. And yeah, so I, I just wanted to encourage people to like be picky. They're active, like act in a state of abundance as a way to like best support your physiology.

[02:01:36] Danny

[02:01:36] And that's going to be different in every place. You know, that's like part of the fun place about navigating to a new area is like trying to find the best food available and places like the Philippines. That's very difficult.

[02:01:47] Mike Fave

[02:01:48] Definitely not the funnest thing to do in some of these places, but yeah. It's a journey, I would say the only place worse than that was Lao, like the, I, they, they don't even have like grocery stores where I was.

[02:02:00] Danny

[02:02:00] And so I was eating at a convenience stores and it was, it was, I was just trying to survive the three days I was there. It was awful.

[02:02:07] But Mike, what was your tip?

[02:02:08] Mike Fave

[02:02:09] My tip for people was to actually track their food and chronometer for a period of time. A lot of people that I work with when I start working with them, just tracking their food and chronometer just to see what they're doing on a regular basis is actually extremely helpful and eye opening before I even interact with them in any type of way.

[02:02:27] And then a lot of times people will gain insight just from that. And I think the first thing is that seeing is believing. So, and I think a lot of people actually don't want to track things because they're afraid of what they're going to find. But I think confronting it is really important so that you can actually come to some type of plan and do something about it, right? It's like the, if you're in a health situation, like I think Dr. Pete talked about the rat and restraint stress. When he gets to bite the stick, it removed and minimizes the stress response. So confront what you're doing dietarily, whatever, and then you can start to make a plan to move forward. And then you basically, again, you're moving from theory to practice. And some things that people will tend to see or clients will tend to see is deficits in macronutrients or imbalances in them across meals or over the course of the day, caloric deficits or excesses. Most people are actually running pretty significant deficits and are not even realizing it. Micronutrient deficits or imbalances.

[02:03:22] And then their food decisions aren't as good as they thought, especially people eat out a lot, they're like, yeah, I eat out. Okay. And then they start plugging things into chronometer and they're like, Oh, wow, this is actually not as great as I thought. And then you can start to form relationships or a lot of people, this usually works as working people over time, but finding relationships between certain foods, And the other thing is if somebody's eating out a lot and they're thinking they're doing well and whatnot, you can start to see that if you start to look at expenses and time expenditure and those things, you actually find that you're spending a lot of money eating out, spending a lot of time doing it, and then you're not feeling so well, especially seeing the breakdown in chronometers.

[02:03:56] So I think it's quite helpful for people to see everything, get a full view on what they're doing, and then have a plan to adjust it.

[02:04:04] Danny

[02:04:04] Yeah, I, sometimes I think things like that can become pathological, but like if a person can't eyeball like their plate and tell you roughly how much protein or carbohydrate is in it, like that's a good thing to engage with to, to, to, to gain that ability to do that, you know, but yeah, what you, the more knowledge you have about what you're eating, probably the more, the better decisions you're going to make. So that is an important part of it, I think.

[02:04:30] Jay Feldman

[02:04:31] Yeah, totally. I agree. I think it's a great, like a great thing for people to incorporate and, and yeah, I wanted to add a caveat with my mention. And it's so tough with any sort of like tip or trick here. We're trying to keep it brief. And so you can't address every possible iteration or way that somebody might, you know take it. So of course, like all of these things we always mention, take them with a grain of salt, as you were saying, Danny, like too much tracking can become pathologic or in certain kinds of situations. So all that being said, in terms of being picky with our, with our food, we've all talked about situations where that, like, you can only be so picky, right. Or you're traveling or you're in a spot where things are an ideal and that's okay too. So yeah, it's, it always depends on the context. Got it. Do the best you can with what you got. Got it.

[02:05:15] Danny

[02:05:16] Totally. Okay. With that episode four is in the bag. So Mike, where can we find more of your work on the internet this week?

[02:05:23] Mike Fave

[02:05:24] You can, you can find me at Mike fave. com and on the energy balance podcast.

[02:05:29] Danny

[02:05:30] And Jay Feldman?

[02:05:30] Jay Feldman

[02:05:31] My website's Jay Feldman, wellness. com and the energy balance podcast.

[02:05:36] Danny

[02:05:36] the the other place find me at T dot me slash Danny Rowdy and Danny Rowdy dot subsec. com. We have an amazing audience. Thank you guys so much. Don't forget to subscribe to the channel. Appreciate you guys. And we'll see you soon. Peace out.