[00:00:00] Jay: Welcome to Episode 6 of the Bioenergetic View. In today's episode, we'll be discussing Gabrielle Lyon's protein recommendations, the problems with high protein diets, and the major cost to her 1 to 1 protein to carb ratio suggestion. We'll be going over Dr. Boz take on the drivers of high fasting blood glucose on the carnivore diet.

[00:00:20] We'll be discussing why Dr. Berg's view of serotonin as the happy hormone is unsubstantiated, as well as our thoughts on his recommendations for raising serotonin. We'll be discussing how the glucose goddesses strategies for blood sugar regulation demonstrate a poor understanding of glucose and insulin.

[00:00:36] We'll be discussing whether obesity is truly caused by genetics, and if eating less and exercising more can influence Obesity outcomes and lastly we'll be discussing the benefits of sunlight and red light exposure and with that let's jump right in

[00:00:51] Danny: Hey everybody. Welcome to a bioenergetic view with Jay feldman and mike fave and me Danny Roddy And today we're going to talk about uh, or Jay is going to give a disclaimer Jay. Go ahead

[00:01:02] Sure. Well, just as always, as we talk through some of these people's views, I just always want to make it clear that none of this is personal. It's the reason why we want to do this is because we get questions all the time from people who are seeing these kinds of posts and videos, and we want to help provide alternative ideas and kind of directly contrast with them.

[00:01:20] Cause we put out podcast episodes and content that directly explain why these things might not be ideal, but sometimes people still don't understand Don't put those we think it's really valuable to do this, but of course it's not personal toward any of these people. And we're always happy to have them on as guests and talk through these things.

[00:01:38] But, uh, yeah, it's that that's like the position we're taking here. So just want to always throw that disclaimer.

[00:01:46] Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. So speaking of um And we'd love to have her on the show. Uh, it's Gabrielle Lyon Am I lying? How are we saying? And she is speaking about the amount of protein and carbohydrate in this video. And Jay, how did you get first get wind of her? She's

[00:02:03] talking on a lot of podcasts these

[00:02:05] days.

[00:02:05] Jay: Yeah, she's everywhere these days talking about how important protein and muscle are. It's a brand new idea and She's got her book that everyone's promoting. She's done all the big podcasts and that seems to be her shtick. Obviously, we haven't, you know, don't know too much beyond that. I haven't read her book or anything, but I think we get a pretty decent idea from this

[00:02:25] video.

[00:02:27] Danny: Got it. Okay. So let's play this first clip here.

[00:02:29] Screenshare: Difficult to gain weight while overeating dietary protein. Versus if you are eating excess calories from fats or carbohydrates, and in part, this may be due to the nitrogen containing compound of the amino acids, um, the impact protein has on muscle protein synthesis. It is, um, depending on how you design your diet can activate metabolic machinery.

[00:03:01] Like I've mentioned in the past muscle protein synthesis, which again, these are all things that we will discuss. In detail later, but from a health standpoint of just designing a diet, let's agree that we're going to shoot for around 1 gram per pound. Ideal body weight. Now, um, you could go lower. You could go to 1.

[00:03:25] You could go to

[00:03:25] 0. 7 grams per pound. If you like, or up to 1. 0 grams per pound, ideal body weight,

[00:03:34]

[00:03:34] Danny: I've been hearing that for ever since I think I got into the health world. That per that gram of per pound. Does that have any science behind it? Would you guys know where that came from? Is that mostly regarding?

[00:03:47] Mike: The points, the 0. 7 grams per pound. And it's not of ideal body weight, but grams per pound is a research target. But the one gram per pound is like bro bodybuilding stuff to a large extent. It's not like the research is supporting that 0. 7 to 0. 8. The other thing is it's not per it's not via ideal body weight.

[00:04:09] Then, and if somebody was obese. And there's specific cutoffs. I think for men it's like greater than 26 or 29 percent body fat. And for women, I think it's greater than 35 or 39. I forget the specific cutoffs. Then you're looking to do one gram per pound of lean body mass. Um, which is different than ideal body mass, whatever that means.

[00:04:28] It's kind of arbitrary or like your actual one gram per pound. So yeah, this isn't, I'm surprised that this is making the rounds because this is, old news, like this, the protein stuff. You don't even have to have any type of medical credential or anything like that to go read bodybuilding. com. Or one of these different bodybuilding websites in ninth, in like the early two thousands and see, Oh, by the way, one gram per pound of protein is like what we're shooting for and protein is helpful for weight loss and carbs and fat are not and all this type of stuff.

[00:05:02] So, yeah, this is definitely old news. It's surprising that this is gaining so much traction

[00:05:06] right

[00:05:07] Danny: So her claim to fame, though, is that she's like a bodybuilder, right? So that she's a former bodybuilder. And so maybe that's why she transmutes these ideas

[00:05:14] into longevity

[00:05:16] Jay: Well, and I think she's also an MD, so she, you know, has the credentials alongside the bodybuilding, but yeah, as I mean, the, the one grand per pound obviously is not a new idea. And as you were kind of suggesting, Mike, isn't really based on anything other than. The kind of bro science forums, the 0. 7 grams per pound is actually something that's suggested in the literature as kind of the optimal amount where more doesn't provide any benefit when it comes to building muscle, even in athletes, even in bodybuilders, in people who are doing resistance training, of course, if there are steroids involved, that could be a different scenario, right?

[00:05:49] Because your capacity for muscle protein synthesis is higher because you're opposing stress hormones effects on the muscle and having more of an anabolic effect. But the, so it actually directly that kind of that research suggesting that, which we've cited, uh, mental Henselman's paper is a great one.

[00:06:05] They're describing that conflicts with the idea that she's suggesting initially, which is that more protein equals more muscle protein synthesis. And that's why it's so hard to gain weight on excess protein. When in reality, it's generally shown that you're not going to have any benefit in terms of building muscle beyond that 0.

[00:06:21] 7 grams per pound. And that already has a little bit of wiggle room in there. There, I think it was actually 0. 63 grams. Per pound of total body weight that was shown to have the maximum, like to result in the maximum amount of protein gain, uh, muscle gain in athletes, in people who are trained in people who are, you know, doing resistance

[00:06:39] training.

[00:06:39] So,

[00:06:41] Mike: on deficits to not just because there's an idea that when you're on a deficit, you have, um, you're more catabolic, so you would need higher protein, but they, those studies were done in training people who are training on caloric and energetic deficits. And it was the 0. 6, I think it was 0. 6. 63 or 62 or something like that. And then they added the two standard deviations on top of that to get to the 0. 82, which has been the recommendation in general. Now, again, if you're not obese and if you are obese, uh, then it would be per one gram per pound of

[00:07:13] lean body

[00:07:14] mass

[00:07:14] Jay: Well, and the idea also, so again, she was saying it's hard to gain weight on excess protein, which is true, but this has nothing to do with the impact on muscle protein synthesis or the fact that it activate the other point she said was that it activates metabolic machinery, like protein synthesis.

[00:07:29] And then the other point was that it it's because it's made up of nitrogen containing amino acids. None of these are actual reasons why it's hard to gain weight on excess protein. Again, this isn't a new idea. You have people like Ted Naiman who have been talking about a high protein diet relative to carbs and fats.

[00:07:44] You have, I mean, people have been talking about this forever and it's not because of a muscle protein synthesis effect. Instead, it's because a, it's really easy to maintain a low calorie diet because protein is really filling. And the other would be that the usage of protein for energy as a fuel is extremely inefficient.

[00:08:01] You typically have to convert it to glucose. I mean, you can use the amino acids in respiration, but it's, it's really disfavored in most cases. But instead you have to convert it to glucose, and when you do that, You lose out on 30 percent of the, the, uh, potential energy there versus just using glucose itself because of the inefficiency of that conversion.

[00:08:21] So what you're essentially doing is just recreating a low calorie diet. And, or a low carb diet because you're using protein to get fuel because you're relying excessively on this building block. That's not actually made to be a fuel. So if somebody wants to go on a low calorie diet, sure, a high protein diet will help there, but that's not actually solving anything physiologically.

[00:08:43] It's not actually improving someone's health. Instead, these are the same things that derange people's health that we talk about all the time, creating a chronic stress state, you know, impairing thyroid activity, lowering the metabolism long term causing some major issues. So it's definitely not something we recommend, but if you were to recommend it, that would be the reason why those two things, not because of muscle protein synthesis or metabolic machinery or nitrogen containing amino acids.

[00:09:10] Mike: I also think that there's a, there's a misconception in a lot of the health spheres that like, Protein can do no harm. Like there's no problems

[00:09:18] with protein. And I think some of, some of these ideas, especially with the bodybuilding backgrounds that that gets perpetrated there pretty consistently, but when you start to look at. The research, and you start to look at the act, some of the actual problems with the protein. So you already mentioned one of them, Jay, and that was the, the, when you're using protein, converting it into energy, there's a loss of actual potential energy when that conversion to glucose, which is part of that is involved in the production of ammonia from the conversion of the amino acids into glucose. And the ammonia itself is a bit toxic. Now the body can metabolize it, which is fine. But again, you, the liver has to waste ATP, has to waste energy to actually undergo that process. So it just doesn't make sense. You want to have enough protein, which is why that target, that 0. 82, or depending on your, the circumstance, but I generally shoot for 0.

[00:10:09] 82, makes sense to get, get all the amino acids and things you need for structural components, and then really get your energy substrate from carbs and from fat. I think that's. That makes the most sense when you start to break this down and look at what happens when you're with the excess protein. So that's the other, that's the first thing. The second thing, or the second problem with excess protein is in upregulating the urea cycle to detoxify that ammonia that usually involves an increase in glucocorticoids. So what they show in some of the studies, if you change the ratio between carbs and protein, where you have a higher protein amount in ratio to carbs, uh, you wind up seeing an increase in glucocorticoids. cortisol levels. And that's through the hypothesis is one through up your regulation of the gluconeogenesis, which is a conversion of amino acids in the glucose. And then two through the upregulation of the urea cycle to detoxify ammonia, which glucocorticoids are helpful for. So not really ideal from a metabolic standpoint. And then a third one that doesn't get talked about that often. And but when you start to look at this in terms of the gut function and microbiome, Excessive, excess amounts of protein can make their way into the colon and then you can get production of some toxic metabolites. So some of those, one of them is ammonia, but other ones include hydrogen sulfide, indole, scatol, p cresol.

[00:11:29] And these are essentially metabolites that are formed from the bacteria in the gut taking amino acids and metabolizing them into these different things and these different things are a bit toxic, a bit irritating to the colon and whatnot. So long term driving Super high protein intake actually has some detriments.

[00:11:48] And it, you know, again, if you know the amount of protein you need just to maintain structure and lean mass and regenerate tissues and stuff like that, then shoot for that. And then use the carbs and fats for the energy substrate, which is what, that, which makes more sense overall, because the excess protein is just going to be converted into carbohydrate anyway. So for me that when I look at this, like it's number one, this is old news, bodybuilding recommendation type stuff that has been around for decades at this point. And then the second thing is the perspective I don't think is complete. When you start to actually consider that there are problems with getting excessive amounts of protein intakes.

[00:12:24] But again, at the base, getting enough protein is important. The question is just what's that amount. And that amount I would say is probably closer to the 0. 82 which he does say the point. Uh, the 0. 721 gram per pound, so it falls within that range. So I think we're in relative agreement there, but like this heavy focus on protein, I think is, you know, after that, like after you hit that target and you've solidified that strategy, move on to the next thing.

[00:12:49] It's not this be all to end all that important after you're like, okay, I'm eating enough protein in a consistent basis from bioavailable sources. Like we don't need to then harp further on, oh, protein, this protein, that it's like a very simple conclusion to, to

[00:13:03] move

[00:13:03] Jay: Well, and as you're saying, it's not just incomplete, it's detrimental, right? The, in the studies, they show a high protein to carb ratio increases cortisol, decreases testosterone. You mentioned ammonia concerns. You mentioned gut concerns. Not to mention there's major concerns with displacing your carb intake with protein.

[00:13:20] And that's the next thing she gets to is how many carbs to have. But when you overdo protein, it forces you into a basically a low calorie, low carb and or low fat diet. And that's the best way to lead to long term stress, which is going to, you know, decreasing your metabolic rate, decreasing thyroid activity, all those things.

[00:13:35] So, yeah, I think it's particularly harmful to be above that 0. 8 gram per pound range in most cases. Of course, we're taking out the obesity situation where, uh, well, actually in that case, it would be even more so because that would be an excessive amount of protein. If you have a lot of body fat, um, but that would be the time when I would lean toward 0.

[00:13:53] 8. But if you're going above that, really, again, in the vast majority of cases, it's coming at a detriment.

[00:13:59] We definitely don't want to eat in a way that increases cortisol, decreases testosterone and disrupts our gut health. But when it comes to creating a diet to optimize your hormones and improve metabolic issues, there's a lot of conflicting information out there. And that's why I've created the energy balance food guide to help you determine exactly what to eat to optimally support your metabolism and help you lose weight, improve your digestion, get amazing sleep, boost your energy and tons more.

[00:14:25] The Energy Balanced Food Guide is a one page infographic that organizes foods on a spectrum based on how effectively they support your metabolism. And it also has a separate spectrum that adjusts the scale for you in the case that you're dealing with various digestive symptoms or issues. The Food Guide makes it extremely easy to get started with a bioenergetic approach to optimizing your health.

[00:14:44] So head over to jfeldmanwellness. com slash guide where you can download your free Energy Balanced Food Guide.

[00:14:51] Danny: Am I thinking of the Cori cycle or doesn't ammonia waste carbon dioxide as well? Like in its detoxification process

[00:14:59] or.

[00:15:00] Mike: I think so because you have to combine some of the intermediaries with CO2. In order to create, uh, I think urea. So I think carbon moyl phosphate is one of the intermediaries and that is carbon dioxide bound to one of the nitrogen groups.

[00:15:16] Danny: So yeah, high protein diet for hypoxia. That's fantastic. That's really great. Yeah.

[00:15:21] Mike: Yeah. And the other thing is like the, the depletion of ATP at the liver. So like a lot of people don't. I think, know this, but the rabbit starvation stuff that they talk about. And there's like all the, the books where, what was it? Villmore Stephenson did that book about the Eskimos and rabbit starvation.

[00:15:38] And if you eat only lean meats for an extended period of time, you get like diarrhea and sick and die and all this type of stuff. A lot of that is because if you don't have carbs and you don't have fat, and you're just trying to use protein as an energy source. Because the protein, you have to detoxify the, the amino group on the amino acid and you generate ammonia in the liver and kidneys have to detoxify that you wind up creating net negative energy balance at the liver and the kidneys over time, if you do that for an extended period of time and it actually can kill you, it's not a good thing.

[00:16:07] So ideally you don't want to be, I mean, no one's saying for a protein, high protein only diet. But that's like the extreme take of what happens when you only have

[00:16:16] protein over

[00:16:17] Jay: Yeah, but think about what happens if it doesn't kill you. It just makes you stronger,

[00:16:20] right? This is, this is hormesis.

[00:16:23] Danny: course, I think it's also said that Eskimo women looked as old as they did at 60 at 30. Like, like, and, and every carnivore kind of

[00:16:35] conveniently skips over

[00:16:36] Jay: Well, and also those original studies showing that the Eskimos, um, and Inuit didn't have like, had like no heart disease and everything. Those have been since refuted with newer data showing that they have just as high, if not slightly higher percentages of those sorts of diseases. So yeah, I don't think it's a population to be emulating as you're suggesting,

[00:16:55] Danny.

[00:16:56] Danny: They're in optimal health, though, so that's hard to say. Okay, here we go, here's the second quote.

[00:17:01] Screenshare: a great starting strategy, depending on your calorie needs and what you are aiming to achieve is potentially a one to one ratio of balanced protein to carbohydrates. Super easy. Everybody can do it. If you are eating, um, 120 grams of protein, you could easily get in 120 grams of carbohydrates. The way that you dose it and the timing I do think is of importance.

[00:17:34] And please remember, I am making generalizations. I talk a lot more about this in my book Forever Strong, which is coming out October 17th. But for baseline principles, a one to one balance of protein to carbohydrates can be very workable for people. For example, if your breakfast meal is 30 grams of dietary protein, I have no problem with you having 30 grams of carbohydrates at that meal, a one to one ratio, so forth and so on. Now the average American consumes 300 grams of carbohydrates. In addition, the average American is also sedentary. This is not ideal. If you are going to increase your total carbohydrates, then this should be done around exercise. Increasing dietary carbohydrates should be done around exercise.

[00:18:32] Danny: This was originally a Robb Wolf thing, like, earn your carbohydrates, you know? And, and her saying, I am okay with you doing this is a real revealing thing about her whole perspective on nutrition and

[00:18:43] how she talks to people, I

[00:18:44] think.

[00:18:45] Jay: Yeah, I'm all for nuance, but like, let's, let's actually say something, you know, it's supposed to, this is easy. It's workable. I'm okay with you doing this as opposed to actually suggesting something or like describing what's going on physiologically. I mean, I understand trying to simplify it for people who are, you know, maybe don't understand that a one to one ratio means that you get 30 grams of carbs and 30 grams of protein, but I don't know.

[00:19:10] That's,

[00:19:12] Mike: Well, she simplified it. And then it was like appeal to authority with her being the authority. It was like, that was her rationale. I was like, I'm okay with you doing this. And it's like,

[00:19:21] okay, that's what I needed to know. As long as you're sitting on my shoulder and you're like, Hey Mike, it's okay that

[00:19:27] you have

[00:19:27] Jay: Well, it's like every caveat, like this all depends on all these certain circumstances, but I'm okay with this. And it's like, well, are you also okay with a two to one ratio or three to one ratio or 0. 5 to one ratio? I mean,

[00:19:38] yeah,

[00:19:40] Danny: Well, I mean, I'll, I'll go, go,

[00:19:41] go.

[00:19:42] Mike: No, go ahead, Danny. I didn't mean

[00:19:43] to cut

[00:19:43] Danny: Well, I was gonna say, like, we just talked about all the problems with the, like, high, like, too high of a protein intake, but also, like, that could, did we talk about stimulating insulin and then lowering the blood sugar? Like, a person could put themselves in a hypoglycemic state, like, 24 7 with that type of regimen, and then they'd be relying on adrenaline and cortisol just basically absolutely all the time, and so it's, um,

[00:20:03] it's just,

[00:20:04] Mike: Well, she says this, she says this,

[00:20:06] in another, in another portion of the quote, that if you get more than, I think she said 40 or 50 grams of carbs in a meal, you're going to stimulate insulin. And it's going to lower your blood sugar, which

[00:20:16] I don't, I won't get to that, but there's like a lot of problems with that, especially because there's a lack of understanding. That amino acids also stimulate insulin, right? And then they also like, you're basically just going to be stimulating gluconeogenesis. The biggest thing I see with this is, and say, we have an example of like breaking this down. If you have a 120 pound woman. To sedentary and she has about 25 percent body fat.

[00:20:41] You can estimate her calories. So she's sedentary about a 1700 calories a day. Her protein intake. If we shoot for like a 0. 8 grams per pound, we have about 100 grams of protein per day and 100 grams of carbs. And then she's left with 100 grams of fat to hit that 1700 caloric intake. So she's at this, this woman is essentially on a high protein, low carb, high fat diet, which is. Like I just don't understand the perspective this you all this talk about you want to keep you know Protein high and then carbs and fat are the things that make you gain the most weight and then you're still on a high fat Diet like that's the about a 54 percent Fat intake for the diet and it gets worse when she recommends the type of fat which we'll hear in a second But it's yeah, like this is this is this is no change from the low carb sphere This is a rebranding of the low carb sphere with a focus on the idea of, oh, we just need to have enough protein, which was never something that was lacking in the low carb sphere. Right? So, that's what I'm saying. I don't see anything different in these recommendations. And in this idea of all this one to one ratio of carbs to protein, we already talked about the problem with having a close ratio of carb to protein, right? Where you see in the studies, two to one at the minimum leads better cortisol, lower cortisol levels, and then better testosterone cortisol ratio.

[00:22:01] And Jay, you and I have talked about this study in, in many, I think we even talked about it in the Rob Wolf thing that we did, where he was talking about keeping your, um, your carbs low, so your blood glucose is flat all day long, and things like this.

[00:22:13] Jay: yeah, yeah. And I mean, this is part of what I was saying too, about not actually saying anything, because as you're saying this, if you're talking about a very low calorie diet, then this could turn into. A high protein, moderate, low carb and moderate low fat diet. But if you're talking about a, uh, like, you know, a high calorie diet, then you're right, Mike, like we're talking about just getting a ton of calories from fat because actually she says it just fill in the rest of the fat.

[00:22:40] And if you're doing a one to one ratio of protein to carbs, it's going to be super high fat. But she also doesn't say like what is optimal here or whether you should increase this ratio or decrease this ratio in different scenarios. It's just, she's okay with one to one and there's nothing else being mentioned here.

[00:22:55] No positives or negatives of going above or below that or anything. And I get, you can't put every explanation of your recommendation in a short video, but you have to put something. And so maybe she would say that if you have a higher calorie needs, you should be getting it from carbs. But we just don't know that based on this.

[00:23:12] Based on this clip, she does make it sound as though the only time you should increase carbs beyond this is if you're really active, you know, just increase in according to exercise, which is totally ignoring your physiological need for carbohydrates, which is normally going to be considerably higher. Or at least a decent amount higher than your need for protein.

[00:23:31] Uh, and yeah, well, yeah, definitely a lot, a lot higher and not to mention the huge negatives to having less carbs. And we kind of described it in the concerns with high protein. It goes hand in hand, but yeah, I don't, I don't have much to much more to

[00:23:46] add here.

[00:23:47] Mike: I think you did touch on a really good point, though, is that they're the minimum carbohydrate, the estimated minimum carbohydrate need just for, I think, central nervous system function per day was around 150 grams, and there's really not that many people who are going to be doing. The 0. 82 grams per pound of protein per day who are hitting 150 grams of protein.

[00:24:08] So they're one to one with protein and carbs. You'd have to be around 200 pounds and you'd, you'd probably want to be like, that's 200 pounds lean. Um, which is not the vast majority of the population. So basically this diet, Doesn't create a carbohydrate intake for the vast majority of people to actually hit the minimum glucose requirement that your central nervous system would need to function, which is a huge problem. That's a huge problem. And I know we're going to get people in the audience. Well, carbs, you don't need carbs. Your body can make your own carbs that they're, they're not essential or anything like that. And it's like. They are so absolutely essential. Your body is producing the carbohydrate from proteins at an expense to itself to make sure that your central nervous system has those carbohydrates.

[00:24:51] So this is, this is like, this is not a good place to be. This is kind of like no man's land in terms of your, the amount of macronutrients that you're having on a regular basis, right? Where again, it, it leaves room for, and it sounds like she's anti. Carbohydrate and after that one to one amount, and I guess anti is maybe an exaggeration, but she doesn't it seems like that one to one is kind of like the that's the limit where you want to stay there unless you're really active or something like that and it that's it and then it's so then it has to be fat that's left over.

[00:25:22] So you have this situation, you have a high protein intake. Your carb intake probably isn't high enough for your glucose needs. So you're going to turn on all of these, these adaptive processes, right? You're going to make yourself more insulin resistance peripherally because you're going to be running on those fatty acids because you are going to be sparing this glucose that you're creating for the central nervous system because you're not hitting this particular amount.

[00:25:44] You're going to have to be upregulating gluconeogenesis and you're going to be taking that excess portion of protein that you're having and you're going to be converting that into carbohydrate to burn as energy as well. So just like from a logistic standpoint, it's just not a good strategy. You're going to be burning the protein for energy, which is net negative if you're in compared to using carbs or fats.

[00:26:04] You don't have enough carbohydrate for what your body needs and you're going to dry fatty acid oxidation because you don't have enough carbohydrate and then because you're eating a high fat diet. So it's like, again, this is the same problems that we always talk about. This is going to drive cortisol, it's going to drive glucagon, it's going to drive adrenaline, it's going to lower thyroid function. It's going to create a, a, a ton of metabolic problems in the long run. And you, you see this with clients, right? You get people who are on, come from protein sparing modified fasts or high protein, high fat, low carb diets. And then it's like trying to reverse the, the insulin, uh, resistance that they get from that, right?

[00:26:39] And it's not necessarily pathologic where the mitochondria are completely destroyed. Like, what do you see in a diabetic state, but it's people running on a bunch of fatty acids. And the goal is to not do that because that is the default state of stress and the default state of metabolic dysfunction is burning fatty acids.

[00:26:55] Jay: Yeah, for

[00:26:56] Danny: said, okay, uh, here's the last clip from her.

[00:26:59] Screenshare: And then the remainder of your calories Can come from fat and this could be calculated again. You have to understand where your total calorie goals are, but this could be 0. 32 to one gram per pound of your calories dedicated to fat. Personally, I think the fat should come from polyunsaturated fat. I will tell you that the majority of fat in beef is actually monounsaturated. So essentially it's like olive oil, which is very interesting.

[00:27:33] Jay: Again.

[00:27:35] Mike: We're just all

[00:27:36] speechless.

[00:27:37] Jay: I mean, again, just pointing out like. Cause, cause this is, this is something that we see all the time that these people who are on a big podcast or whatever, and just say nothing while saying words, like saying, like what are you trying to say? Obviously, like there's an undertone by saying beef is mostly monounsaturated fat, so it's like olive oil.

[00:27:57] The assumption is that she's trying to say that it's good, but she is intentionally not saying that. She just says that it's interesting so that she doesn't have to actually defend that point. And it's the same thing as like, you know, you should have a, or I'm okay with a one to one ratio of protein to carbs.

[00:28:11] Like, I don't think it's out there authoritarian so much and necessarily relying on authority. I mean, it is to an extent, but I think it's more trying not to say anything. Um, anyway, so that was the first thing I want to mention,

[00:28:23] but

[00:28:24] yeah,

[00:28:25] Danny: We probably have to get familiar with her book, like maybe she's some technical genius in her book or something, but she's not really demoing it here at least.

[00:28:34] Jay: there's yeah. Yeah. You're right. Like we can't base everything. Like, I don't think this is all of her views. I'm sure she has more things to say, but to put out of this video is still out. Like it still exists and she still doesn't say anything or says very, very little in it and it seems to be intentional.

[00:28:55] So one thing that I was thinking, Mike, based on what you were suggesting about like filling in with fad and where that takes us in terms of trying to create a full diet. So if you took the max of her recommendations here and you were, let's say 150 pounds, um, or let's say

[00:29:10] like a.

[00:29:11] Mike: I have the breakdowns if you want, Jay. So like calculated to the same calorie set that that is standard to use. So if you have a, if you have 120 pound woman. And she's 25 percent body fat because of the calorie calculation. The one that you should use is based on lean body mass, which is catch McArdle. So that gives you a basal metabolic rate of about 1, 255 calories. Now, if you assume this person is sedentary, which is the premise that she gave for people who were not active, then that would give her a caloric requirement for maintenance of 1, 700 calories per day. And according to, so say you were going to do the 0.

[00:29:50] 82 Uh, grams per pound, which is that split that, that we recommend and falls between her 0. 7 and one that would put this person at a hundred grams of protein and a hundred grams of carbs. And then basically a hundred grams of fat, which is about 23 percent protein, 23 percent carbs and 54 percent fat. I don't that.

[00:30:07] The reason I'm being specific is because this is following exactly what she's saying to do. Figure out your caloric needs, put your protein in there, make your carbs one to one and then fill in the rest with fat. So that's exactly that setup.

[00:30:20] Jay: Right. Yeah, which as you're saying ends up being a high fat diet, it also ends up being a relatively low calorie diet. I know you were starting with the calories, but if you even tried to pull up, choose like the max of all of her recommendations, you know, for a 180 pound person, you're at like 3000 calories, which I guess for an average 180 pound person isn't so low, but, uh, I would say it's on, on the low end for sure.

[00:30:42] And as you're saying that ends up being just a high fat, low carb diet, uh, yeah. But to touch on the the clearer things that she does say here, which is that the majority of beef, of fat and beef is monounsaturated and that we want to be getting our fats from polyunsaturated fat. So for one, um, when it comes to beef, it's typically right about even between monounsaturated and saturated fat.

[00:31:05] Which is very different from olive oil. So olive oil has very little, like nearly no saturated fat, and it's going to be about 90 percent monounsaturated and 10 percent PUFA beef is going to have like 45 to 50 percent each of monounsaturated and saturated fat. And then a single digit percentage of PUFA normally like 5 percent or less, you know, a couple of percent.

[00:31:25] That's a very different fat composition from olive oil. And if she's saying that polyunsaturated fat is the beneficial one, then neither olive oil nor beef are good sources here, right? This is where we need to be getting our canola oil. What are you saying,

[00:31:37] Danny?

[00:31:39] Danny: a non sequitur. Why, why is she talking about like a monounsaturated fat, when she's just said that the polyunsaturated fat was what

[00:31:45] you want?

[00:31:45] Mike: Yeah,

[00:31:46] it, it, it sounded like

[00:31:47] she was justifying to herself the fact that she likes to eat a lot of beef and that the fat content is mostly monounsaturated, so it's not problematic and it's like it was disjointed thoughts, right? So it's like you should be what I'm reading on the screen says. You should be eating mostly

[00:32:04] polyunsaturated

[00:32:05] Jay: a chat

[00:32:05] GPT

[00:32:06] Mike: this

[00:32:06] is what I

[00:32:07] do, which is kind of, it's close enough what I do.

[00:32:10] Danny: Sorry to

[00:32:10] interrupt, Jake, you go

[00:32:12] Jay: No, no, it's fine. I mean, that's exactly what I was, you know, getting at. I mean, so for one, obviously we have a, Very, very strong disagreement with the idea that we should be getting most of our fats from PUFA. But if that was the case, then I'm sure her diet's mostly what? Like canola oil, soy oil, uh, you know, a lot of almonds and walnuts

[00:32:28] and,

[00:32:28] and,

[00:32:29] Danny: the good

[00:32:29] stuff.

[00:32:30] Jay: Yeah, I mean, which it doesn't sound like it is. I don't know what her diet is, but it's, it's, as you were saying, like, it's almost like, that's what the script said, but then she had to make it relevant to her actual diet. Uh, but yeah, obviously, I mean, there's no need, I think for us to discuss all like, we, it doesn't make sense to start talking about all the reasons why we don't think it's a good idea to eat polyunsaturated fats.

[00:32:54] I mean, it's. I don't know how many times we've, how many hours we've spent discussing those things. You know, if you search PUFA on any of our channels or anything, you'll, you'll find endless amounts of content. But yeah, I would say those are just real briefly, most susceptible oxidative stress, major, uh, ways to decrease our metabolic rate, you know, interfere with mitochondrial respiration severely are dramatically quote inflammatory.

[00:33:17] I mean, a ton, a ton of issues there. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, uh, I was surprised to hear that.

[00:33:26] Mike: Yeah. I mean, so put it into context, right? So say that was a hundred grams of fat. That was a target we chose for this 120 pound woman. So to start, you're probably not going to get that much omega 3 because that like pharmacologic doses start at two grams. So let's be generous and let's say that you have a max amount or your let's say this person has 10 grams of Omega threes of intake in their in their diet that leaves you with 90 grams left between your fat and will also be generous and say half of that will be monounsaturated fat.

[00:34:00] So you'd have 45 grams of monounsaturated fat and then 45 grams of Omega six and then 10 grams of Omega three. I don't think anybody across the health spheres except for the like your cardiologist would say that that is a good idea. Yeah. Because you, it's just a super high omega 6 intake with a, like, quite high omega 3 intake. And then the rest of it's the monounsaturated fat. You actually, I don't even think you could make this diet with almonds. Like, you couldn't use almonds or hazelnuts to hit that target. You would act, you would have to use some of the other nuts. And then you would also have to specifically use probably things like soybean oil, canola oil, or things like that to get into that type of diet. intake, which again, no one, as far as I've seen, I haven't seen anybody recommends that much omega 6 intake in an alternative health sphere as like a, this is what you really want to shoot for. This is like, this is a really good thing. So again, that's like, and then beef fat, if you had any amount of beef, you would screw up that entire ratio because you're going to get a decent amount of saturated fat, which according to the mainstream health sphere, you shouldn't get. Any amount, or like, it's like less than, I don't know, was it 10 percent of calories or something like that? Maybe that's too high. I forget the specifics. But, to keep it excessively low. So, it's just a weirdly set up diet, right? 120, 100 grams of protein, 100 grams of carbs, and then you have 100 grams of fat, and then maybe like half of that is polyunsaturated, and then the other half is mono. So, not really a solid dietary set up.

[00:35:31] Danny: she buddies,

[00:35:31] Mike: doesn't make any

[00:35:32] Danny: is she buddies with Layne Norton and Alan

[00:35:34] Aragon?

[00:35:36] Jay: I don't know.

[00:35:36] Danny: honest question.

[00:35:37] A serious question. Yeah. Because I mean that that seems like she's maybe being

[00:35:41] influenced by them or something.

[00:35:42] Jay: but even they, they don't suggest that it's a good idea to consume them. They just say that they're not harmful and whatever leads you to eat the lowest calories is the best. And so the only reason why seed oils could be bad is because they're concentrated calories, which, you know, I mean, obviously we don't agree with that and I've talked about it, but I still don't think they say that you should be getting most of your fat from polyunsaturated

[00:36:02] fats.

[00:36:02] I don't know.

[00:36:03] Maybe they

[00:36:03] do.

[00:36:04] Mike: No, the bodybuilding sphere tends to push more for monos. So in the bodybuilding sphere, it'll be things like, avocados, egg yolks, um, or maybe not even egg yolks cause it's a cholesterol. So avocados, olive oil, things like almonds. And then they talk about omega three and omega six when they're saying to get that like from fish and whatnot. And then I guess some people supplement with flaxseed oil, but again, you can't use that much flaxseed oil or fish oil because even in the studies after certain dosages, you start to get really high amounts of oxidative stress. So you couldn't argue for high amounts of those fatty acids. Again, like 10 grams of omega three a day is a lot. That's like multiple that you would be basically on blood thinners. You'd be on blood thinners and you would just, you would basically crash your lipid profile. Um, maybe, maybe you're again, maybe your cardiologist may like it because your triglycerides and your cholesterol levels would probably be. It's smashed into the ground, but in the long run having things that low isn't actually a great idea And I think there's a decent amount of research to kind of support the idea that you don't want your cholesterol Absolutely too low. There's some problems with that as well. So yeah, it's it's a weird dietary

[00:37:15] Danny: about a bottle of udos oil per day without one bottle?

[00:37:20] No

[00:37:21] Mike: If you wanted to cover yourself in age spots, I mean, I think that's a great strategy to to do that

[00:37:29] Danny: Noted noted anything else to say about this and we can move on

[00:37:33] Jay: No, not on my end.

[00:37:37] Danny: Okay, here we go, this is a carnivore Dr. Boz and this was an interview with Sean Baker and um What is she saying in this? She's saying increased fasting blood glucose on carnivore is due to eating too late or eating too much volume

[00:37:51] and needs to keep carbs below 20 grams and may need medication from a

[00:37:54] doctor.

[00:37:55] Okay, so let's listen to her

[00:37:56] talk about this.

[00:37:56] Screenshare: Why is my blood glucose still coming in around

[00:37:59] 114 after OMAD and Carnivore for a year? My glucose had, was in the 60s or 70s before Carnivore. But Was hyperinsulin, uh, anemia symptoms. hyperinsulin,

[00:38:14] symptoms is what I bet they meant to say.

[00:38:18] Danny: Was that the full clip,

[00:38:19] Jay: That was just the listener question. Um, because she, she then had like a tech issue. So then in this next part, she doesn't re say the question fully, but I wanted to, to

[00:38:28] include that and

[00:38:28] then we'll get into

[00:38:29] the,

[00:38:29] Mike: Before you play it, Danny, I think we should just, OMAD is one meal a day, so it's carniv carnivore diet and one meal a day.

[00:38:38] Jay: after for a year and blood sugar went from 65 to eighties up to 114.

[00:38:43] Danny: yeah. So,

[00:38:44] Mike: I'm assuming this is fasting.

[00:38:46] Jay: assuming. Yeah.

[00:38:47] Danny: so ridiculous.

[00:38:48] Okay,

[00:38:48] here we go.

[00:38:49] Screenshare: What I was saying is, in a carnivore state, this, uh, this person writes in and says, Yes, I've been eating for one meal a day, and then I, and I was carnivore, uh, for the past year? Why are My blood sugars so high? Well, when you look at blood glucoses, um, of 60 to 80, before they went carnivore, I would contend that the volume of food was probably less before they went carnivore. In somebody who is carnivore, uh, what I, the biggest mistake that I've seen happen is it tastes amazing, it's great. And if they could keep the hours that they're

[00:39:28] eating,

[00:39:29] uh, very limited,

[00:39:32] um,

[00:39:33] and then number two, number two, especially if they're insulin resistant,

[00:39:36] is

[00:39:36] move

[00:39:37] Jay: you pause

[00:39:37] Screenshare: window close to scale.

[00:39:40] Danny: Yeah,

[00:39:40] I

[00:39:40] Jay: cause I want to go through number one before we go through number two.

[00:39:44] Danny: Yeah, good. Go for

[00:39:45] it.

[00:39:45] Jay: Okay. So her, her first. Her first suggestion here is that their blood glucose was in a good range before, so they must have been essentially under eating. And then they increased their volume of

[00:39:57] food when they went to carnivore.

[00:39:58] I'm assuming

[00:39:58] she means like calorie density. I

[00:40:00] don't think she actually means volume, especially because the volume of food on carnivores normally varies. Like there's not a lot of volume. You're not

[00:40:07] eating salads and things with water in them.

[00:40:09] It's or fiber. It's just dense meat. So I don't think she actually meant

[00:40:14] volume, but so she's suggesting that a, like

[00:40:18] people are susceptible to overeating

[00:40:20] on carnivore because it's dense, which is. The old, I've never heard that claim before. I mean,

[00:40:24] the whole light, like something you hear all the time is that when you're eating carbohydrates, they're addictive. Sugar is addictive. Processed food is addictive. Like all these things make you

[00:40:32] overeat. And this is the easiest way to go on a low calorie diet is with a carnivore diet, which I don't disagree with.

[00:40:38] I don't think, I think we all agree. If you want to go on a super low

[00:40:41] calorie diet, jack your protein up and you know, you could add in some fiber and things like that, but I think it's really, really uncommon to find someone overeating. But so that's what she's suggesting is this person is just eating too many calories and The solution there is to reduce the eating window.

[00:40:57] So essentially you're going to be hungry because you have to eat less than you want to eat on carnivore. So you need to reduce the eating window, which is not even mentioning the fact that this person was already on OMAD, they're already eating one meal a day, so she wants a shorter meal. I guess the meal is too long.

[00:41:14] Um,

[00:41:17] Mike: this steak.

[00:41:18] Danny: The short meal diet. I got it. A million dollar idea.

[00:41:24] Mike: Just eat less, just endlessly eat

[00:41:27] less until you're not eating anything. And then eat less than that.

[00:41:34] Danny: Doesn't this completely negate the fact of like eating low, like why is the person eating low carb if what she's saying is true? It's like, why don't you just, uh, I mean, it's just completely, basically negates the fact of eating low carb to begin with, I guess.

[00:41:51] Mike: I just, I just, this is it. This is just so ridiculous to me, right? Cause I, I've never worked with somebody. Who was like, I came from carnivore one meal a day and then like tons of fasting and I'm just eating so much and my appetite is so high.

[00:42:09] I think if anything, the chronic fasting plus really high protein intake with a lower fat intake, cause a lot of people don't do carnivore the right way.

[00:42:17] Like if you're going to do a high fat diet, which you have to do with carnivore, if you can't just do only protein, then, you don't want to get a massive amount of protein. A lot of people are just eating steaks. Essentially, most people's appetite is bombed because the protein will increase satiety, the fasting long term will wipe out the appetite, the lack of carbohydrates starts to wipe out the appetite, and then they only can eat one meal a day. For example, for me, for my size, I'm 190 pounds in order to maintain my weight. The amount I've been eating is about 3, 300 calories. I couldn't eat 3, 300 calories in one sitting. Like I wouldn't, that I would not feel good trying to do that. Cause there's only so much protein you can eat in one go. And then the rest would have just basically have to be fat in order to actually eat that much in, in, in one time.

[00:43:03] Cause again, the carbohydrates aren't available. So this, this idea is, First of all, I think it's just flat wrong. Like there's, I don't think there's any substance to this idea. I don't, I don't know where she's getting this perspective that people on carnivore are overeating. I think most people are actually not eating enough.

[00:43:19] Especially as we talked about the problems with having too much protein and then to suggest to somebody who's on a one meal, who's already eating one meal a day. That you just have to further shorten the eating window. It's like, what's the point? Like, what is the, what is the point to, so you're eating windows an hour and now it's 30 minutes, so you're just going to have to eat less.

[00:43:40] Like, is the solution just starvation? To lower your fasting blood glucose levels. I mean, I don't even think that that like starvation will worsen this. They're already in a starvation ask state. So like driving glucagon secretion more by not eating enough and then basically upregulating glucocorticoids like cortisol and adrenaline, like it's just going to further elevate the fasting glucose level, but there's just this non strategy, this is a useless. perspective to help this person. And I don't mean that in a judgment of her, but this is actually like the, the, the solution here is actually useless and actually borderline dangerous for this person to continue to eat even less, um, just to lower fasting blood glucose level. And it's also weird to sit here and this person say my fasting blood glucose level has went up. Has almost doubled on carnivore. And the problem is that I need to eat less on carnivore. Like it, it's like, why don't you sit there and look at the obvious and be like, well, maybe carnivore is making things worse. I think that's the, that's the most obvious solution, not this work around that you need to eat less. Well, and again, if we were to, let's say, take the benefit of the, like, give her the benefit of the doubt where this recommendation is for other people. It's not for this person who's already on OMAD, even still, this is built on the assumption that overeating is bad, but carnivore makes you overeat to the point that you have to restrict your eating windows significantly, you have to have only one meal a day or like, you know, very, a very short eating window to prevent overeating when before on whatever diet you were, that wasn't carnivore.

[00:45:12] Jay: You were comfortably under eating. Like that's the assumption, which is. So, so odd, right? I mean, that's, I mean, for one, of course, we've never heard that. I've never heard that before from someone advocating for carnivore. And it feels like it's just trying to fit into the situation. But as you were saying, it also isn't true.

[00:45:29] Like we agree that carnivore is a good way to under eat. Uh, and we just, as we've talked about it, think that that's really, really harmful and going on a very high protein, low calorie diet is a great way to decrease testosterone, raise fasting blood sugar by increasing stress hormones, increasing fasting.

[00:45:46] cortisol, especially, but also having chronically high glucagon. Like there's huge costs here. Uh, but the cause is not overeating by any means. Or at least, yeah. So, um, go ahead, Danny. Well, let's let's, let's talk about this really quick is that the cause here on carnivore is the elevation in gluconeogenesis. And the lack of the I mean, I know they go hand in hand, but just saying like, If, if you had the carbohydrates that keeps cortisol down, it keeps glucogon down, it keeps adrenaline down and has a balanced amount of insulin to help keep those things down as well. So that causes the gluconeogenesis that you're going to describe.

[00:46:26] The lack the, and. and.

[00:46:28] Mike: then not eating would even drive that further because then you're going to further drive the body's need to produce the carbohydrate through gluconeogenesis, through the production of glucagon, through the upregulation of glucocorticoids, which will further increase the blood sugar level. This person's fasting blood sugar is increased. It's not their after, it's not their postprandial blood sugar. It's not the blood sugar that they're having after a meal. It's when they're waking up in the morning and they haven't eaten anything and the blood sugar is higher. And even her, when we get into the second point, her suggestion is eat to lower the stress hormone.

[00:47:01] And it's like not having carbs and eating more protein is not going to help this problem. And even eating less is not going to help this problem. You need to have carbohydrate on board to raise insulin, to lower gluconeogenesis, lower glucagon, lower cortisol, et cetera. So the solution here is actually worse.

[00:47:18] It will worsen the situation in the long run because it's driving the same process. That is causing this, and I, and I think this is a big problem when you look at these diets and the gurus who are trying to explain them. It's like they don't even understand the mechanisms of why people are having these elevations in fasting blood glucose and change in their thyroid function.

[00:47:37] Like they have no concept of what's going on hormonally or what's going on in terms of the nutrient partitioning. It, there, it's just like they did carnivore work for them and then there's all these rationalizations now as to like why it's working instead of looking and saying, okay, we're really driving gluconeogenesis. What are all the same things that drive gluconeogenesis, drive glucocorticoids, drive stress? And it's like, okay, starvation, lack of carbohydrate, high fat, high protein diets. And the solution here is do more of those things. So that's the, that's what it, it just gets ridiculous to me. Like it's a clear, direct lack of understanding of, of what's going on across these systems.

[00:48:15] Like, Especially with the recommendation. It's, it's blatant. And the ones who at least mildly understand that physiology. They then twisted and make the argument that yes, that's going to happen. Your fasting glucose is going to increase, your cortisol is going to increase, your thyroid is going to decrease, T3 is going to decrease, testosterone is going to decrease, but that's a good thing, right?

[00:48:33] Jay: That is the argument that has to be made if you actually recognize what carnivore is doing. And there are people who do that, right? I mean, that's the ones who at least have some understanding that that is part of the physiological process that's going to happen. On a carnivore diet, as opposed to the ones who kind of try to act as though it's, it is still a bad thing.

[00:48:52] And it's cause you're overeating or you're eating windows too

[00:48:55] wide. Her advice is essentially like telling the person how many times to go to the bathroom per day. It's just like completely not trying to figure out what is actually happening with them, you know? And so the, I mean, that top down nutrition, physiological type of advice is so worthless and it immobilizes the person.

[00:49:14] Danny: They can't, they can't make any decision themselves because I mean, the whole, the whole, the advice doesn't make sense to begin with. So it's, um, this must be so vexing to the person. Yeah. And if they were eating the right amount before to have a good blood sugar from her perspective, why would, I mean, they should just go back on their previous

[00:49:31] Jay: diet, you know? A McDonald's diet, Yeah.

[00:49:34] Yeah.

[00:49:37] Yeah.

[00:49:37] Danny: Okay, so great advice.

[00:49:39] Jay: let's hear her second

[00:49:40] point here. Do you want to go back like five seconds, Danny? Cause I

[00:49:42] Screenshare: You keep the hours that they're eating, uh, very limited, um, and then number two, number two, especially if they're insulin resistant is move the eating window close to sunrise. So we don't want you eating from four to seven o'clock at night. We want you eating closer to when your body produces that cortisol rise in the morning.

[00:50:04] This is definitely a place that. Um, you know, the, the, the price that people pay for having a carnivore, um, only diet isn't just that it tastes really good. But it wouldn't be the first time where I said, yeah, I just want to remind you of the question

[00:50:22] here, just so you can

[00:50:23] see, um, see the question. They said, yeah, look, I

[00:50:27] Jay: Can you pause

[00:50:27] for

[00:50:28] Screenshare: blood sugars now.

[00:50:30] Danny: Yeah.

[00:50:30] Jay: Cause she gets into one

[00:50:31] other, but that was like

[00:50:32] her second point, right? That we need to move the eating window closer into the

[00:50:36] morning. And if it's too late, it's an issue. And I forgot that she was, she keeps talking about how a carnivore tastes really good. And no one disagrees that like meat tastes good.

[00:50:46] And if you're coming from like a vegan diet, sure.

[00:50:49] It can taste good to have some meat, but I don't think anybody would it. Preferentially like health aside,

[00:50:55] choose to eat purely meat.

[00:50:58] Danny: Of course

[00:50:59] Mike: Every day by itself. Only that for

[00:51:02] years.

[00:51:03] Danny: You know, I think you can go and we're all familiar with this You can you can get your metabolism so low that you don't have a taste for food in general And

[00:51:12] then you can just be like, yeah, I love meat like it's the

[00:51:14] best thing ever like it because because there's just like zero

[00:51:17] appetite

[00:51:17] and

[00:51:18] Jay: Which we talked about with analyze and

[00:51:20] optimize, you know, you had posted, you had,

[00:51:22] uh, included that study that they posted about that.

[00:51:27] Mike: Well, and this, you see this with clients too. You come to the, they come from low carb, keto, carnivore, whatever

[00:51:33] the deal is. And they're like, Oh, I'm not really hungry. I don't like, I have

[00:51:36] people tell me like, I don't think I can eat as much as you. Are like discussing that I eat and I'm like, just give it two weeks, like just incorporate some carbohydrate, bring some fruit and some sugars on board, maybe potatoes or rice if you do well with those and then see what happens to your appetite. And it's like two weeks later, it's like, Oh, you know, I'm, I want to have breakfast now. Like I look forward to breakfast. I'm hungry now. I want, I'm getting hungry throughout the day. And it's like, Oh, I can't go seven hours without eating now. That's something that many people mentioned, and it's like, yes, you have increased your appetite.

[00:52:09] You've increased your metabolism. No, this isn't insulin resistance. or your carb addiction or something like that. This is like, this is how the system works. You, when you're running these diets, you are essentially just like running at bare minimum subsistence all the time. And when you start to bring exogenous carbs on board, you are sending signals to your body like, Hey, We actually have like a good fuel source, a good substrate on board. And so let's start to increase these metabolic processes again and kind of reverse this, this hibernation, this winter state that we've been functioning under over an extended period of time. And so those things are par for the course. If you're coming from low carb, if you're coming from keto or carnivore, your appetite will increase when you put carbs in.

[00:52:52] No, you're not going to be able to like last eight hours between meals. and not be hungry at all. And I think those are actually good things. Those are good signs. A lot of people think it's a plus that when they wake up in the morning at like four o'clock because their cortisol spike is high and they're ready to start the day and they're super amped and then they're not hungry all the way until 2 p.

[00:53:10] m. Like that is a sign of health. And you maybe are more productive, but in the long run that will come, that definitively comes at a cost. Like, especially when you start looking at Han Selye's work in the idea of general adaptation syndrome and then like a fatigue stage. You're, right now, you're in the resistance stage, and it's only so long until you hit the fatigue stage, and then it's like, man, no matter what I do, the coffee doesn't do it, the nicotine doesn't do it, the, like, going lower on carbs doesn't do it, like, I just can't get this energy boost.

[00:53:38] And you also get people who say, I don't eat, because as soon as I eat, I'm so tired. Even if they're in there on carnivore and low carb, and that's like, yeah, you're, you're lowering those stress hormones that are, that's propping your system up while you're starving. And then when you hit those, your body's like, all right, we're going to chill out now. So you don't want to be in that state. That's not the optimal state to shoot for. I know it's touted in the spheres is good, but you want to have an appetite. You want to be getting hungry. You don't want to be amped and can't fall back asleep at four o'clock in the morning and all this type of stuff.

[00:54:11] Danny: Just one little correction like that was the resistance phase The cell you were talking about was a slow breakdown of the ability to, uh, resist the chronic stress and then exhaustion is death. So like, I, so I don't, I don't, the, the fatigue is part of the breaking down of the person's capacity to resist the stress, right?

[00:54:34] Mike: I think that, yes, I think the resistance is like your body is using these resources to manage the stress.

[00:54:40] And I think the, with the, again, this was my understanding, but the, fatigue stage was basically like at the end of the fatigue stage was like death. But I think you, there's a lot of people who get into that fatigue stage who are just like, Their body is completely shot.

[00:54:57] And I think you can, you see that with different hormone profiles with people where like everything is like, everything is low, like all the hormones are jacked up, even the glucocorticoids are low and whatnot, but they have zero energy. They have no response to any external stimuli and they're just flat. And then you also see this inside the ICU and in the hospital where people are, and they are at death, like their body, their body's adaptive responses have completely given out. So like. The hormones and things that they're giving people in ICU is glucocorticoids and they're giving them, um, synthetic, uh, adrenergic agonistic drugs. And it's like those things are keeping them alive because their own systems are, have failed so poor, so hard that they need to take like exogenous substances that are significantly stronger than what our body would be exposed to, to come out of it. And then you start to see, like, when you look at the studies. of the effects and mitochondria of people inside the ICU or like in this fatigue stage. Basically, like their ability to burn carbohydrate is destroyed. They're just running on fatty acids and then their ability to produce ATP and like the actual structure of the mitochondria is absolutely destroyed because they ran through those stress hormones. Which drive fatty acid oxidation and it completely cripples the system. And that's essentially what I think you can break down the, the alarm, or not the alarm, the resistance stage where your body, and we've talked about this on the energy balance before, your body is running on adrenaline and glucocorticoids and whatnot.

[00:56:27] And that's increasing mitochondrial energy production by burning fatty acids. And when you burn fatty acids, you create a bunch of oxidative stress in the mitochondria that damages the mitochondria, and then eventually the mitochondria poop out. Like, they're, they're done. And that's where I think you start to see the fatigue stage, where people's bodies can, like, the hormonal system, the cells are not responding to the hormones anymore, and then the cells energy production is just completely collapsed, because you can't run those things for that long. I

[00:56:55] mean, certain different people can handle it a little bit better than others, but overall, like running that longterm, like you are degrading your energetic systems directly and it's shown out in the research. Like this isn't even controversial. They talk about this in, in hospital patients. They talk about this in people under chronic stress.

[00:57:11] Like this is known whether or not it's known in the, these alternative hormetic spheres that constantly want to push stress. This is known

[00:57:17] otherwise.

[00:57:18] Danny: to how much Udo's oil a person has taken in, they can manage

[00:57:21] the whole situation.

[00:57:22] Mike: Yes. The oils, the primary factor.

[00:57:24] Jay: it.

[00:57:26] just,

[00:57:26] Danny: it.

[00:57:27] Jay: coming back to her quick. So she talks about how you want to eat meat. Like early in the morning to kind of prevent or, or dampen the cortisol spike. But if you're just eating a super high protein meal without any carbohydrates at that point, there's only two ways you're going to be doing that.

[00:57:44] One is through gluconeogenesis, which. will help provide some glucose to help turn down the stress hormones. And the other would be by the insulinogenic effect of protein, which would then help to turn on those stress hormones. And you know, it's more than likely a combination of those two, but obviously, as we would suggest, the better way to do that is to provide carbohydrates to actually turn off the stress hormones, provide the actual fuel that's needed to do so, which is glucose, as opposed to trying to provide protein and having a really inefficient conversion to glucose to do so.

[00:58:16] And also eating enough calories throughout the day, eating enough carbohydrates to keep the stress hormones down. Because if you just try to eat some meat in the morning, those stress hormones are going to be high all day, not just cortisol, but also especially glucagon will be high all day. And anytime you then have an increased demand, you're going to really drive adrenaline and cortisol much higher.

[00:58:35] So yeah, this is just going to drive this pathology further.

[00:58:41] Mike: Yeah. The protein in the morning will further drive gluconeogenesis. So while the amino acids will also stimulate insulin, they will also stimulate gluconeogenesis. So you're basically, you're at a high level of gluconeogenesis. And I guess we didn't, we're talking about as if, but gluconeogenesis is the production of glucose from the liver under the function of a hormone glucagon, and also adrenaline and cortisol play a role in that. And gluconeogenesis occurs where the body breaks down its protein structures and then also its fatty structures to use the glycerol backbones and the amino acids from the protein and the fat to produce glucose. And so when you eat more protein, you're, it stimulates gluconeogenesis. Particularly, if you have the, a lot of the branch chain amino acids and things along these lines, which a big stake will drive gluconeogenesis. Now, it'll also drive the production of insulin, or the stimulation of insulin, but it's, you're at a baseline elevated gluconeogenesis, and then you're further increasing gluconeogenesis, and you have a little bit of insulin stimulation. So you're really like, it's not solving the problem. Especially if it's like a high protein, high fat meal, like you need carbohydrates to stimulate insulin to bring that gluconeogenesis down without having to further drive gluconeogenesis. So the solution, I like, I don't even think it would really make that much of a difference in the long run. It just moving the eating window. The solution is to number one, get enough carbohydrates and that's through across the day, not just after you work out, which we talked about with Gabrielle Alliance, but then also, you know, making sure that you're eating enough, which I think in carnivore, most people aren't, and I think we talked about that.

[01:00:19] You know, if you're having two ribeyes a day, depending on the size. And that's mostly protein. There is some fat in there. You're not really going to get that much, that much, uh, nutrient or that much energetic substrate or calories. It's very difficult to do it. Uh, so yeah, unless you're like really pounding a lot of red meat and then adding a lot of fat.

[01:00:38] Basically, if you're going to run carnivore the right way, you probably want to do it in a ketogenic type of way because the super high protein intake is probably even worse. Because you're just driving gluconeogenesis even further and increasing ammonia even further and you really want to have like at that point you want to be You have a substrate in the form of

[01:00:59] fat

[01:00:59] Jay: When you say driving it the right way, you mean the slightly less harmful way, but still. Significantly harmful and detrimental way. But as you're saying, I think that this is why a lot of the carnivore people transition over to bringing carbs in a lot quicker than the keto people did, because it's, it's, you're, you're driving that stress harder cause you're not in a ketogenic state as you're saying.

[01:01:18] And so you're having to rely on gluconeogenesis, which is as you know, more stressful and more difficult than an actual ketogenic diet, which is also considerably harmful, but just maybe a tad less than carnivore.

[01:01:32] Mike: Yeah,

[01:01:33] Danny: Not that many remaining carnivores from 2018. That's a lot of them have defected from that.

[01:01:39] Jay: Yeah,

[01:01:39] seriously.

[01:01:40] Mike: I think I just

[01:01:41] saw on the feed too that, uh, what's his name? Sean Baker is actually moving into a

[01:01:47] keto diet instead

[01:01:49] of just running through your carnivore.

[01:01:50] Jay: yeah, but he, he some injury. And so he was trying to like have extra support for his nervous system or, you know, neuronal healing and ketogenic diets have been shown to be supportive

[01:02:01] there,

[01:02:01] but

[01:02:02] Danny: I saw the, I saw the video that he had made, but I didn't know that he was adding

[01:02:07] in carbohydrate.

[01:02:08] Jay: no, no, he's

[01:02:08] not.

[01:02:09] Mike: No, it's not carbs. he's just increasing his fat intake. Relative to his

[01:02:14] Jay: Yeah. It's just, he's going to

[01:02:15] keto.

[01:02:16] Danny: God, okay. Maybe, maybe that's what I figured. Okay. That makes a lot more sense.

[01:02:20] Mike: No, it's not glucose. Danny. Glucose

[01:02:22] is

[01:02:22] toxic. It

[01:02:23] Danny: to me means like 20 carbs per day or 20 or 40, like low. Is that, is that wrong terminology these days?

[01:02:31] Jay: What?

[01:02:32] Mike: what what was I missed

[01:02:32] the

[01:02:33] Jay: Yeah. What'd you

[01:02:33] Danny: involves carbs, not.

[01:02:36] Like, at least

[01:02:37] Mike: Not necessarily you just have a limit in terms of so like they just say you have to be less than this so that you can Stimulate

[01:02:43] Jay: It was, it was more Danny. It's more that he's reducing his protein and increasing fat. That was more of the shift. I don't think he's bringing in any

[01:02:50] carbs.

[01:02:50] Danny: got it that calls back to a lot of people like for example, Jimmy Moore was the most famous one But realizing that there were problems with eating too much protein So that that like bounces up and down in the low carb carnivore world And so it's just funny because there's I mean we talked about this before but there's no place to go like if you have a problem What do you do?

[01:03:10] Do you lower your car like carbs more like you can't do you lower your fat? Do you have to start lowering your protein? And that's, I think that's the tragedy when people actually start having problems, it backs them into a corner and they have nowhere to go. And so eventually the cognitive dissonance accumulates and you have to dismiss the whole thing because it's

[01:03:27] not going to help.

[01:03:28] Jay: Yeah. Yeah. Seriously.

[01:03:31] All right. Let's hear this last point here

[01:03:33] about the

[01:03:34] runaway insulin resistance train.

[01:03:36] Danny: There we go.

[01:03:36] Screenshare: 114 where before I was at that 65 to

[01:03:40] 80 range.

[01:03:41] What I would tell you is somehow the volume of

[01:03:44] food is likely higher or the last bite

[01:03:47] of food is too late at night. The other thing, the other place that I've seen this happen is that

[01:03:52] the progression of insulin resistance, sometimes they forget the disease, forgets to tell the patient.

[01:04:00] So as their insulin problem is growing worse, Well, nobody, um, nobody told them, uh, and now they have a much, uh, steeper climb to get, um, uh, to get out of that slump of where the, the sugars used to be 65 to 80. Now they're 114, their insulin resistance has gotten exponentially worse, which I do often find that when they are in a good zone and they march up to the next zone, if you're measuring insulin.

[01:04:30] The insulin has, um, I mean, the insulin resistance, the

[01:04:34] cells just are

[01:04:35] not listening to what insulin is telling them.

[01:04:37] And I do

[01:04:38] find that there is a season of transition where

[01:04:43] Danny: That was everything, right?

[01:04:45] Jay: Oh, it could have gone on a bit more. It

[01:04:47] doesn't

[01:04:47] matter. I mean,

[01:04:48] Mike: It's just a word

[01:04:50] Danny: her next thought after that

[01:04:52] was even less clear

[01:04:53] because I

[01:04:53] Jay: Well, and that's, I mean, dovetails in with what we were talking about earlier, you know, this, the, say a lot of words, some of which sound

[01:05:02] maybe

[01:05:03] Danny: it. This is like, this is egregious. This is like really bad. Like the worst

[01:05:07] of the other ones we're talking about. Laughter.

[01:05:09] Mike: I just the thing is like I just I get

[01:05:12] what she's trying to say to some extent You But it

[01:05:15] just gets, I think as she's working through it in her mind, she's starting to realize that like. This isn't really making full sense.

[01:05:22] So she's trying to adjust what she

[01:05:24] says and it's just not, it's not coming out.

[01:05:27] Well, like it's, it's actually, it gets like, what are we saying at this point? Like, I don't know where she's going. We're talking about seasons now

[01:05:34] and I don't know what's coming next. Is it spring? Are we in summer?

[01:05:38] Jay: So just to steel man it, because obviously like it will help,

[01:05:44] will help a little bit, um, which is essentially saying like, if you can decipher the clip and the late later on parts, is that this person was already dealing with insulin resistance that was getting worse and it was hidden because it wasn't being told to the patient and is going is like consistently getting worse.

[01:06:02] Right. Right. And they switched to carnivore just at the end here, but the insulin resistance kept getting worse, and now it's just showing up, but it's not because of carnivore. Now, even, I mean, that is still a really odd perspective, when A, this person has been on carnivore for a year. So, how long are you supposed to see some modicum of benefit to insulin resistance when you're not consuming carbs, which supposedly cause insulin resistance, and this person's eating one meal a day, which is supposed to, you know, also reduce insulin resistance.

[01:06:30] So, how long is he supposed to do this until he can start to at least see a blip of benefit, as opposed to seeing this runaway train of insulin resistance continuing to get worse? So much worse that his blood sugar went up 40 points more, you know, more than 40 points fasting it's it's a, and that is not considering the fact that insulin resistance is a really fluid state.

[01:06:50] I mean, you can shift out of it unless you're fully type two diabetic. I mean, you can shift out of that state very quickly and shift into it very quickly. Like if any of us went on a low carb carnivore diet with fasting, we could see our blood sugar or fasting blood sugar go up relatively quickly.

[01:07:04] Certainly before the year. And. So to suggest that this increase was already happening and had nothing to do with the new thing that he's been doing for an entire year is so odd. I mean, it's, it is directly, obviously very directly caused by the new intervention that he brought in for an entire year would have a direct effect on this exact

[01:07:25] situation.

[01:07:26] Mike: This is Olympic level, mental gymnastics, Olympic level. Like this is gold

[01:07:31] medal

[01:07:31] stuff.

[01:07:32] Danny: honestly did not know she was saying that, Jay, so thank you for that, I really appreciate it. That's pretty wild. That's, um, yeah, exactly how this is what a lot of carnivores criticizes vegans for. They'll say, how long are these things supposed to take, etc, etc. So it's, um, again, nobody's denying that a person can be pretty screwed up by the time they enter any dietary modality.

[01:07:55] And, you know, and a lot of damage has been done. But, um, that's, yeah, that's crazy.

[01:08:01] Mike: Yeah. Yeah, this, this one is just difficult because it's the guy, his fasting blood glucose levels almost doubled over this, this year. And the suggestion here is that, oh, there, you were super insulin resistance before and this is just the lag effect. That's like, that is dangerous territory for rationalization, right?

[01:08:21] Because then the next, then the suggestion or solutions were just double down. So eat in, eat in less time and eat even less than you're already eating. And because you, because of this lag effect and it's like, the idea here is that the carnivore diet should be helping the insulin resistance and lowering the fasting blood glucose. And since it's not, then like it, this almost borders on, Oh, if this is just a genetic problem that you have, it almost gets to that point. Like you just have this problem and your diet and these other things. Aren't going, aren't like related to it at all or not doing anything. Again, it's like a super rationalization because you would have to assume like, well, the carnivore diet will help you eventually, but this lag effect just takes too long.

[01:09:09] And so you haven't seen it yet. So then this person would have to presumably stay on this diet for what, another year or two years. And then if it, things don't get better, at what point is the threshold to say like, maybe this isn't working? Like, where do you find, where's the line? Is it a year's time? Is it two years time?

[01:09:25] Does it take three years for carnivore to work?

[01:09:28] Jay: Well, for some people, Mike, I forgot about this, but a little bit later, she says, some people just need medication. That's, that's what she says for insulin resistance. Some people just need medication. So you can continue to reduce the eating window and eat less volume on your carnivore diet. But some people still just

[01:09:44] need the

[01:09:44] metformin.

[01:09:45] Danny: I'm gonna name this the carnivore insulin resistance echo, and I'm gonna write a book about it. And I'm gonna be a millionaire. So this is that's this is fantastic. This

[01:09:55] is really

[01:09:55] Mike: yeah, this, This is grade a. Olympic level mental gymnastics and rationalization and a clear lack of understanding of the mechanisms to, to be like, okay, maybe this person who's presumably his blood glucose handling is significantly worse because he hasn't had any carbohydrate and fasting insulin or fasting blood glucose levels have increased significantly, right?

[01:10:19] So I presumably insulin levels would be lower since there's no carbohydrate intake. And then the, the blood sugar levels are almost doubled cause they're saying 60 to 80 and now we're at a like 114. So if he was starting around 60, that's almost in the 60 point increase that the, I don't know if you had any intervention in a trial that was looking at that, they would probably stop the trial instead of wax.

[01:10:43] The idea that there's just this really long lag effect and that the insulin resistance is just the the metformin is not working because the insulin resistance is just so bad. That it just takes it more than a year for the metformin to start working. Like that, that is, I haven't seen my pharmaceutical company try to make that argument yet in a paper. This is, that's like a really high level of rationalization.

[01:11:06] Danny: They need to read my new book

[01:11:11] Mike: Yeah.

[01:11:11] Danny: we can move on or any last final words

[01:11:13] here,

[01:11:14] Jay: I don't have anything else.

[01:11:16] Danny: okay, so this is our buddy Dr. Berg and we talked about this clip with georgie, but we just wanted to expand on

[01:11:21] it Maybe a little bit more

[01:11:22] Jay: Yeah, I think we just got maybe 10 seconds in and, um, just got the idea of serotonin, but I wanted to get into some details that he describes as far as all the benefits of serotonin, what happens when your serotonin is low and all the things we can do to increase

[01:11:35] our

[01:11:35] serotonin.

[01:11:36] Danny: Got it. Okay. Tell me when you want me to pause Jay

[01:11:38] Jay: All right.

[01:11:39] Screenshare: about how to boost

[01:11:41] serotonin, the happy hormone. What is serotonin and what does it do? Well, it's a hormone. A hormone is a communication that travels through the body. And serotonin is made by your brain. It's made by your gut, and it contributes to feelings of happiness, it helps raise your mood, it helps make you calm, it decreases cravings for carbs, it helps you focus, and it reduces anxiety.

[01:12:06] Now, if you're deficient in serotonin, your mood might be suppressed, okay? You may have depression, you may have anxiety,

[01:12:13] you may be irritable, you may even have a worsened

[01:12:16] self

[01:12:17] esteem, sleeping

[01:12:18] problems,

[01:12:19] and even memory

[01:12:20] loss. So what can

[01:12:22] you

[01:12:22] do to

[01:12:23] Jay: Let's pause

[01:12:23] there.

[01:12:23] Mike: Can you, yeah.

[01:12:26] Jay: Go

[01:12:27] for it,

[01:12:27] Mike: Go ahead Jay.

[01:12:28] Jay: Okay.

[01:12:28] Mike: You got it,

[01:12:30] Jay: Yeah. So, I mean, the, even in the mainstream, there are some, some major papers that have come out and actually gotten a bit of publicity. Obviously it's not going to change what the, you know, what you're going to hear on like a talk show, but the idea that serotonin is the happy hormone.

[01:12:47] A was never supported by the literature.

[01:12:50] Like never, um, has never supported the idea that increased serotonin in the brain is beneficial or that it was the happy hormone or that depression was just caused by low serotonin. This was all marketing as a way to sell. Medications, but it's been known because there was the prior to the SSRIs, which increased serotonin low serotonin, lowering drugs had been used for depression and a number of other things that I'll adjust other neurotransmitters in rather complex ways.

[01:13:15] And the idea that there's ever been a clear chemical imbalance theory of depression is, has never been supported by the literature. That's always been a, just a figment of marketing and industry, but.

[01:13:27] So, so this idea that he's purveying here is a common one, but it's not at all supported and not at all accurate and pretty much everything that he says that serotonin does, it does the opposite of.

[01:13:37] And everything he says that a serotonin deficiency does. Is the opposite is actually caused by serotonin excess. So he mentions lowered mood, depression, anxiety, irritability. These things are all pretty well tied with serotonin as something that increases aggression and lowers mood and drives more of a hibernation state.

[01:13:54] It also directly interferes with mitochondrial respiration, what their metabolic processes. And this is shown to happen in the brain in response to SSRIs as well. And. Yeah, it does the opposite as far as helping mood, happiness, anxiety. It does have a numbing effect, which you could say can help mood if someone's mood is very low, but it's not actually the happy hormone.

[01:14:17] And much of the other things that he goes on to suggest are all just kind of some surface level connections or kind of, um, like backward top down sort of. Uh, ways of interpreting to based on this faulty place, which is that serotonin is a happy hormone, which again is not founded in any way.

[01:14:39] Like I wrote an article on depression and concerns with SSRIs and, you know, I was so surprised normally when looking at these things from our perspective, the literature is not like, we're not necessarily in agreement with the majority of the literature. We have different interpretations. There's a lot of literature that supports our view as well, but it's, it's more nuanced with serotonin and SSRIs and the serotonin being the happy hormone.

[01:15:03] It was not that way at all. I mean, there was like, everything was saying this is everything you're hearing in the marketing, in the, you know, in the news and the media has nothing to do with the actual physiology.

[01:15:15] Danny: What, what's the teen t nip pain? What? What's the drug? The, the serotonin lowering drug that's useful for depression. And I know there's a few of them. Do you know what I'm talking

[01:15:22] about?

[01:15:24] No, it's a different, it, it starts with a TI

[01:15:26] can't remember that.

[01:15:27] yeah,

[01:15:27] I think

[01:15:28] that, I

[01:15:28] Jay: it is.

[01:15:29] Danny: but anyways, I mean, that just shows how muddled things are, that there are drugs that lower serotonin

[01:15:34] that are also

[01:15:34] Mike: Well, and that, that's actually one of the problems with the serotonin research is that they use drugs. So the way they determine the effects of serotonin in a lot of the studies is they'll use a drug. that will have some pro serotonin or anti or some pro serotonin properties, or they have drugs that will block serotonin and then they'll see the effects.

[01:15:55] But the problem in doing that is that a lot of those drugs have a variety of other effects besides modulating serotonin. So it's hard to say this was just because of serotonin. So that's one of the biggest criticisms of the serotonin research is the lack of understanding of like, what is the pleiotrophic or these off target effects that are outside of the serotonin modulation and a lot of the serotonin drugs, the serotonergic drugs. are mixed bags, like some receptors they have affinity for and then other receptors they don't have affinity for and their antagonist or inverse agonist or things like this that will alter the effect across the board. So the research is muddled through the use of those drugs. And then it's hard to make claims. about the effect of the drug in these particular circumstances because you have to look at like what the full profile of what it's doing is like a lot of the, the drugs that they use now have effects at, norepinephrine or some of the catecholaminergic signaling pathways. They have effects at the acetylcholinergic or the histaminergic or the dopaminergic pathways that, or some of them even directly lower stress hormones like cortisol and some of the previous targets for depression. But like they at one point they were there was talk of using androgens for depression. I think Proviron was was more effective than amitriptyline And you have drugs lowering cortisol and you have pro dopaminergic drugs Then you have t3 as an adjunct or thyroid hormone as an adjunct for intractable depression So it's the module like number one all the neurotransmitters are working together in, in a consort and they're also signaling different context. And then number two, like just looking at one and saying, Oh, is this one thing and you're just deficient in serotonin? And that's the, the, the argument is like a really tenuous argument. Like there's, there's not, that argument is not supported at all. And I think that's what you're getting at Jay with the, when you're going through the research.

[01:17:46] And even worse than that is that there's, there's papers out there that are talking about serotonin worsening these things. And even in the mainstream research, you see a deviation between central serotonin in portions of the brain, like the raft neurons. And then you also see the problems with peripheral serotonin.

[01:18:05] So in the brain, now the argument is that serotonin is, not so bad, but in the periphery, which the vast majority of serotonin. that you produce comes from your gut is peripherally produced is highly problematic. And in some of the papers, one of the papers they actually call serotonin the energy saving hormone. And they're, they're basically, Talking about using drugs that block peripheral serotonin and I think it's tryptophan hydroxylase one Which is the enzyme that produces the peripheral serotonin. They're talking about using drugs to block that to decrease diabetes Decrease obesity and decrease insulin resistance.

[01:18:43] So when you have someone coming on here and saying oh Serotonin is blanket good. That first premise is incorrect. It's not blanket good It's arguably blanket bad, except maybe there's some circumstances where like, for example, and we could talk about this in the brain, when you have a release of serotonin from certain neurons, it basically signals satiety.

[01:19:04] So it's like you ate food and your body is satiated. And so in those circumstances, like understanding what's going on in these particular areas. It's really important because in this one partition particular area of the brain, you have this release of this neurotransmitter signaling satiety that doesn't say anything about the systemic serotonergic state of the body overall.

[01:19:25] And so it's really important to get into those nuances in the context to understand what exactly is going on before you just start blanketly saying serotonin is good. And the other thing I want to mention before we get into Dr. Berg's stuff here is a lot of the things that he's going to recommend to blanketly increase serotonin , don't differentiate between increasing it centrally or peripherally or anything along those lines and will most likely increase it peripherally more so than centrally Causing a ton of problems and again the idea that central serotonin is good is still tenuous Because it really depends on what, on what area of the brain you're looking at, what the effect is.

[01:19:59] And in general, it seems to be a relatively negative thing. And it's elevated in states where, like for example, like you're seeing it elevate in certain states for stress or whatnot as well. So it's, and the other thing too is even in some states where you see that it's positive, like for example, we'll talk about, we talked about the massage stuff. The massage may increase serotonin, but it also lowers cortisol and increases dopamine. Okay. And so you're looking at ratios between these things as well become important when we talk about exercise or, or the central fatigue hypothesis, or some of these different components, it's again, like, it's not just serotonin.

[01:20:34] There's multiple things going on and just seeing up or down doesn't really give you the full picture.

[01:20:39] Jay: just to clarify, the differentiation can, like, is important, or the specifics, the unique details make a difference, but also, as you're saying, in general, the idea that low serotonin, even centrally in the brain, causes low mood. And causes depression and high serotonin reverses that is not supported.

[01:20:59] So even if you, even if there is a distinction there, which of course there is, and just like any other hormone, there is use for it. Like the, every thing has its place. That doesn't mean we want to be increasing it. It doesn't mean low mounts are a problem or a cause. And as a, again, I mean, there's a number of examples of this.

[01:21:16] We can look at SSRIs being ineffective versus placebos. You can also look at the numerous side effects of SSRIs in terms of weight gain, in terms of destroying libido. To then suggest that we should be increasing serotonin in the face of all the, that literature and all those concerns. I mean, I, obviously we're saying that we don't agree with it, but I think even that is a, you know, looking at the side effects of SSRIs as the effect that you're trying to get here is, is maybe a clear way to see that or to put this idea into question, I

[01:21:46] guess, And again, it's not

[01:21:49] Mike: to say that people shouldn't seek help or treatment for depression or anxiety or

[01:21:55] things along those lines. It's just perhaps there's other strategies that would be effective. and possibly not come with this like bag of really terrible side effects. , that would be, that would be worthwhile to look into that.

[01:22:08] That's the perspective. And again, like the thing is like, what is, how is something working? If you're taking an SSRI and it's blanketly lowering basically your emotional responses, basically just depressing the whole system, just bringing all the things down. And like, is that really a solution versus actually basically being able to live and enjoy life again?

[01:22:28] And I think there's a, there's a lot of problems with the mechanisms and the way that these things are working. And then like, what's determined as this is useful or this is not. And then even when they start to talk about mechanisms, like there's a, the idea is talking about like, for example, SSRI is depleting serotonin.

[01:22:44] In the long run, or SSRI is adjusting other neurosteroids and things like that. So it may, again, it's not to say that these are good things to use, but it's more to say that there could be other mechanisms describing some of the benefits of these things. If there is some benefits shown, because a lot of them don't actually show that drastic or significant of a benefit in the studies.

[01:23:04] Danny: Fantastic stuff, guys. stuff. Let's get through Dr. Briggs video here.

[01:23:07] Screenshare: Mr. Serotonin. Number one, L tryptophan. It's an amino acid, non toxic, it converts to serotonin, and it can help build up your serotonin levels. Now, just make sure if you're taking L tryptophan, make sure you take it in an empty stomach. Now, tryptophan also helps you with sleep, so I would recommend taking it right before you go to bed on an empty stomach, because if you take it with protein, the other protein will compete with the tryptophan and it won't go in, so it'll be kind of like a waste of taking tryptophan. Number two, exercise. Exercise helps the conversion going from tryptophan to serotonin, okay? Number three, sun and vitamin D. Vitamin D. Not only is

[01:23:50] necessary for making serotonin, but

[01:23:53] also to

[01:23:53] help convert tryptophan to serotonin. And this is probably why vitamin D has

[01:23:59] antidepressive, uh,

[01:24:00] properties. Alright, number

[01:24:02] Danny: Very skeptical of that

[01:24:04] claim,

[01:24:05] Screenshare: four,

[01:24:05] probiotics. Well, your

[01:24:07] gut makes

[01:24:08] serotonin, a lot of it. And there's a huge

[01:24:11] relationship between what's going on in your gut, and what's going on in your head. But probiotics can help increase tryptophan, especially like kimchi, sauerkraut, these are fermented vegetables, and maybe even kefir, or other probiotic type supplements.

[01:24:28] Alright, number five. Massage also increases serotonin, and decreases cortisol. And just so you know, anything that raises cortisol will inhibit serotonin, so you have to keep your stress low. as low as you can. All right, number six, surprise, fasting. Fasting significantly increases serotonin.

[01:24:49] This is probably why people that do fasting are no longer depressed. Thanks for watching.

[01:24:58] Danny: He's not wrong about a lot of the things he said, but just if you recontextualize them, they're not

[01:25:04] good things, you know.

[01:25:05] Jay: Right, well, totally, and one of the biggest things you said there that I do think is inaccurate is this idea that cortisol and serotonin are antagonistic. Whereas instead you can see pretty directly that serotonin stimulates the production of cortisol and goes hand in hand with cortisol production, which you see in a number of the different

[01:25:22] examples he put out like fasting and we'll talk about, I mean, there's obviously some direct gut effects there, gut irritation and whatnot

[01:25:28] that leads to increases in serotonin, but also exercise where just looking at, just using this idea that we know exercise is beneficial, so anything that exercise increases is good.

[01:25:39] I mean, one of the main things there is going to be

[01:25:41] cortisol.

[01:25:41] And again, serotonin goes hand in hand with that. And Mike, you were talking about the central fatigue,

[01:25:47] uh, was it the hypothesis, central fatigue hypothesis being involved there, but also showing some clear connections where serotonin elevates as glycogen levels fall, essentially, like as our energy stores fall, serotonin increases as a way to reprioritize the distribution of nutrients.

[01:26:04] And then as soon as you recover in the recovery process, your serotonin decreases. So essentially it goes hand in hand with the stress. And as you reverse the stress, the serotonin goes down. So he's, again, you can draw these connections and we don't have to go through each one that he goes through. But in general, while we think exercise can be beneficial, just because that's the case doesn't mean that the serotonin that increases as a result of the stress that you could get from exercise, that doesn't mean that that's a good thing.

[01:26:31] Same thing with fasting is I'm sure we'll get to, but anyway, uh,

[01:26:35] go

[01:26:35] ahead and

[01:26:36] we

[01:26:36] Danny: This is like the type of massage that increases serotonin is like painful Thai massage

[01:26:41] Mike: I

[01:26:42] mean,

[01:26:42] Danny: they're trying to like break your bones while they're giving you the massage so that he's right on

[01:26:47] that as well

[01:26:48] Jay: Sure. Yeah.

[01:26:51] Danny: Mike what were you saying?

[01:26:52] Mike: Again, so say we're functioning under the, the mainstreams idea, right? So say we're not even talking about a bioenergenic idea. Say the premise here is that serotonin in the brain is good, but peripheral serotonin is possibly problematic. Even in that frame, these things don't make sense. For example, if you're taking supplementary tryptophan, you're likely going to increase your peripheral serotonin. Same thing with probiotics and serotonin, same thing with exercise. And an even worse is the hypothesis for fatigue, as we talked about the central fatigue hypothesis involves an increase in serotonin and a decrease in dopamine, which is driving fatigue across the body.

[01:27:28] So for a lot of these things, and even with fasting, the idea that elevating serotonin is a good thing, it's literally saying here that it's elevated through energy saving mechanisms. So, it, across the board, like, elevating serotonin through these mechanisms, even if you function outside of the bioenergetic paradigm or the views that we're discussing here, still, it's hard to argue that these are good things. Especially because the current research inside the mainstream paradigm would argue against these as being ideal things, based on the mechanisms that he's mentioning here in terms of just blanketly increasing serotonin. So I, again, like I just, this video is kind of ridiculous because the entire premise is off.

[01:28:11] So the first starting point of the video is, okay, serotonin is good. If you accept that, then yeah, maybe these things start to make sense. But then when you start going through them individually, you're like, eh, well, you know, there's actually, well, why is exercise increasing serotonin? They're saying that that's driving fatigue and that being a good thing. Like you start, even if you go point by point, it doesn't make any sense. So, I don't know, this video to me is, the initial premise is wrong, and then the mechanisms going through things, and then arguing that it's good is also wrong for each of those components. I don't know, I know you guys don't want to go point by point, but that's, from my perspective, that's what I'm seeing, like, this doesn't make sense.

[01:28:46] Jay: Yeah. And one point I did want to mention, cause I know you had mentioned it, Danny's in terms of the vitamin D typically the stress version of vitamin D, the one 25 hydroxy is the one that has the effect of increasing serotonin along with a number of other stress effects. And you really only produce that when there's stress going on, whether it's due to infection due to stress at the kidneys, parathyroid hormone production, things like that.

[01:29:09] So. just saying that that is the same as vitamin D from the sun or from a vitamin D three supplement is, is totally missing what's actually going on. So, yeah, I mean, as you were saying, Mike, I don't know if it makes sense to go through it any deeper than that. But, uh, if you do, like we've kind of mentioned some brief points with each of these, and as you're saying, if you do actually look at the mechanisms here, it doesn't support that the things that are beneficial increase

[01:29:34] serotonin,

[01:29:35] it's the opposite,

[01:29:36] Mike: Yeah. And again, you don't want to increase gut derived serotonin. So you have to come up with an argument that says that gut derived serotonin is a good thing, which we know that it's not even in the mainstream model. So then you have to, you have to then readjust, like, okay, how is, what is the actual benefit of vitamin D or exercise or these different components, massages or fasting?

[01:29:58] If we know that elevating gut derived serotonin is a problem, like if you're seeing that this is a problem and you're seeing these things are elevating it, then you can't say that those are the mechanisms that there's a benefit. So that's something that is like, again, even in his perspective, or even in this mainstream perspective, at least. It doesn't make any sense when you start to go through the literature.

[01:30:20] Danny: Kimchi with Udo's oil on it though is pretty good. I'm just trying to throw that out there. You

[01:30:26] know, it's pretty good.

[01:30:27] Um,

[01:30:27] Jay: got to, you got to

[01:30:28] send Eric Berg a message about that.

[01:30:31] Danny: Anything, Oh, he could do a product

[01:30:32] affiliation before

[01:30:33] Mike: That's like the anti carrot salad, right? It's like kimchi instead of your coconut oil or olive oil with your carrot and some vinegar and salt, you have kimchi and, and, uh, like these really unsaturated seed

[01:30:47] oils.

[01:30:47] Danny: like hemp seed oil,

[01:30:50] that's, that's golden. Okay. Anything else? Any last thing on this?

[01:30:54] Mike: no,

[01:30:54] Jay: Nothing

[01:30:55] on my end.

[01:30:56] Danny: Okay, let's move on to bioenergetic basics. Uh, and this week we're going to talk about red light. And so let me just read this quote from Ray. This is from 1994 Generative Energy. And he said, he says, Penetrating red light is possibly the fundamental anti stress factor for all organisms.

[01:31:11] The chronic deficiency of such light is, I think, the best explanation for the deterioration which occurs with aging. Enzyme changes, free radical changes, structural and respiratory changes are all involved in the consequence of darkness, uh, darkness stress. And so I don't know about you guys, but this was he was definitely the first person I had ever heard say that Uh darkness stressful and in fact I was hearing like I mean we were all inundated with the idea that when you sleep it should be the darkest room possible And we should mimic like the the rise of the the sunlight etc.

[01:31:43] Um, and the Just I got from Ray was that the more you'd be exposed to light, the healthier you would be. So kind of going past our whatever paleolithic events happened that that wouldn't necessarily like mean that the confines of what was available at the time would be the best. You could actually be better by exposing yourself to light for a longer period of time.

[01:32:05] And, um, I can read this, um, Lane, uh, what's his, uh, uh,

[01:32:09] I can't remember

[01:32:10] Mike: it's Lane Norton. Danny Lane Norton wrote this

[01:32:12] paper.

[01:32:13] Danny: That's that's what I was gonna say it's not like power games. Um, but anyways, what do you guys think?

[01:32:19] Mike: Go ahead. Read your quote though. It's a good quote.

[01:32:21] Danny: a book by, I can't believe I'm forgetting his name. It's Lane and Cell Biology Power Games 2006. And he says, but now Warburg's star is rising again. A new generation of research is returning to his ideas about respiration and cancer cells. Recent findings suggest that the enzyme he identified, so cytochrome C oxidase, is a key player in a new understanding of how The cell's energy metabolism affects health and disease, and surprisingly, they show that light has a profound effect on how the enzyme works, and could even be used to treat degenerative diseases. Is that the most straightforward way of understanding red light? It's effects on

[01:32:54] cytochrome c oxidase.

[01:32:56] Jay: Yeah. I mean, I think you can even take a slightly more zoomed out approach, which is that the interaction and again, zoomed out, not necessarily simpler, but that the red light directly structures the water in the cells, right? And so this is something that Gilbert Ling talked about. And then Gerald Pollack has simplified considerably and has some great work showing where. That's actually what's been shown to improve the function of the cytochrome c oxidases, the benefits of the red light on the structure of the cell and the structured water of the cell, and that helps displace the nitric oxide and helps increase ATP production, but also functions as an energy source itself.

[01:33:33] That actually is the energy, that structure is the Is how we hold energy in the cell. So it's when it comes to things that are directly promoting of, uh, of function, I mean, this is about as direct as it gets. Interestingly, um, which just goes to important something like sunlight is. So again, when we're talking about red light, this doesn't mean everyone needs to get a fancy red light device.

[01:33:57] You get a lot of red light from, from the sun, and this is extremely protective. And. beneficial through these sorts of means and then leads to other benefits as well. And you see this when they study the red lights, they show improvements in neuronal function and healing and regeneration and all sorts of benefits there.

[01:34:15] So, yeah, I do think it's a pretty fundamental factor. And my suggestion for most people, if possible, is to get a good amount of sunlight, as long as you don't burn the goals to not burn. But other than that, essentially get as much as possible. And if you wanted to supplement that with extra red light, I think you could, um, whether it's from an incandescent light, a halogen light, uh, or lamps or from a red light device, potentially, if you are looking for a slightly stronger effect for a certain outcome, but in general, it's Yeah, those would be my preferences.

[01:34:44] And I think changing, I mean, not to go too far down the sign, but as far as some practical things, I mean, changing all the light bulbs in your house to incandescent and halogen, which are increasingly harder to find, but you can't get them still. Uh, that I think is a good step in the right direction to increase the red light exposure in addition to sunlight.

[01:35:04] So, uh, yeah, that'd be my

[01:35:06] thoughts here.

[01:35:07] Mike: Yeah. The other thing I think that's interesting, cause we, I think we've talked about some of this before, but the, I think the mitochondrial, when they produce energy, actually produce light as well in the form of infrared light, and I wouldn't be, wouldn't be surprised if the mitochondria is production of, of the different types of red light and infrared light is involved in structuring the water in and of itself throughout the cell in conjunct in, in, as well as creating these electromagnetic fields. So I think that. it's like kind of like a two way street, right? If you have energy flowing through the mitochondria effectively, they will, the mitochondria is energy production will structure water directly. And then I'll allow for the increase in structuring of the cell. And you can also modulate the mitochondria by supplementing it with this extra red light, whether that's from sunlight. or incandescent lamps or the red light devices or whatnot. So it's kind of a two way street. You want to be making sure that you're oxidizing, uh, glucose effectively through the mitochondria producing that ATP that'll generate the different fields and red light that allows for that cell quorum and for the production of structured water in the cells so that everything works effectively. And then on the flip side, you can add red light into the system or these, these wavelengths of light through the other devices or the sunlight that allow you to improve your ability to oxidize substrate, and I don't, I don't know. For me, when, if anybody else has experienced this, but when I put red light on like different portions of my body or like, even on my head, it's extremely relaxing. And every time I do that, I always think about, um, Dr. Pete talking about like the high energy state being the relaxed ready state. So you're not in this like high, strong state. You're super relaxed. And that's kind of how red light has always felt to me. And it also reminds me of the, the idea where he was talking about, I think it was Albert St.

[01:36:50] Georgie. Was putting the, the, had the frog muscle in a dish and it was super contracted with rigor mortis. And then when you applied ATP solution to relaxed, and so I see red light is kind of like the same type of thing where you're applying it to yourself, it increases the cells ability to produce energy.

[01:37:06] And then the cells are able to create this relaxed state. And I think the other thing, and this is, I guess, a little tangential, but the mind state is kind of reflective of the body state, right? Because the body is generating the consciousness. And so the relaxed consciousness is a reflection of this high energy, relaxed body state as well.

[01:37:26] Danny: Not to mention, like, we've all talked to people that, Would say something like, you know what, uh, I have such low energy. I can't really do anything, you know, and it's doing something like red light would be so low effort, but high reward and so or for somebody who's really old and you and you don't really want to like start suggesting powerful metabolic intensifiers, you know, Uh, something like red light could just be a non invasive way to approach that situation without kind of doing any harm.

[01:37:53] And so just a really valuable thing that I feel like is like under possibly under talked about and kind of the bioenergy Energetic sphere and um, but yeah super big deal

[01:38:04] Mike: And sunlight too.

[01:38:06] Jay: Yeah,

[01:38:07] Mike: having sunlight

[01:38:07] is it's massive, like for mood, for energy, for all this type of stuff for even for me, like work being up in the North, like when I was in New Jersey and then in the winter, not really having access to sunlight and stuff. I feel felt significantly better when I went to areas where I had way more exposure to sunlight and a lot of people I work with too.

[01:38:25] It's the same thing. Like I have clients who will be. In northern Europe and then they'll go to areas in southern europe on vacation. You're like I feel so much better I was able to eat all this food that I normally couldn't eat and like I wasn't really Like sleeping that well because we were partying but I felt infinitely better and i'm i'm sure light is just one of those factors besides like a really structured rigid routine doing things that you don't necessarily like but I think the light is also a huge component, like access to sunlight and exposure to sunlight.

[01:38:53] Like it's definitely a game changer. And I think a lot of people heavily focus on dietary stuff, but environmental considerations like your light exposure and sun exposure are really actually valuable and important strategies that make a huge difference in people's health as well.

[01:39:09] Jay: definitely. throw one small piece in, which is that red light, isn't the only beneficial thing from sunlight. There's benefits to certain types of the UV light that increase vitamin D production and have other benefits and steroid hormone production, but the red light is a huge component there.

[01:39:23] So if we're trying to replicate that in a winter without going to a, uh, more equatorial region, then, you You could get a red light device and then something to mimic the UV light as well, like a spurty lamp. Um, so yeah, just throwing those

[01:39:37] Danny: Fantastic stuff. Okay this one So we'll move on to bad takes here and this one is from glucose goddess And Jay, do you want to set this one up? What is she

[01:39:48] what is she saying this

[01:39:50] Jay: Yeah, well, so she posts her, I don't know if she's a CGM or what. I'm pretty sure these are all her readings where basically most of her posts are all about the different. What, how different foods affect her blood glucose. And the assumption that's built in is that anything that leads to a higher spike in blood glucose is harmful.

[01:40:10] And she talks about this quite a bit and she's, she's got like nearly 3 million followers on Instagram. I mean, this is a huge influence right now in the health and non health world. I mean, it's hitting mainstream people too. And something that I, as we'll get to, I mean, I think all of us think is, is particularly harmful.

[01:40:26] Yeah. And, uh, yeah, so we'll let her share this post and go from there. And we will, I'm sure we'll dig into more posts of hers in the future. Um, digging into kind of other aspects of this, but this

[01:40:36] is a

[01:40:36] good starting

[01:40:37] one.

[01:40:37] Danny: you want me to read this top part?

[01:40:40] Jay: Sure.

[01:40:40] Danny: Uh, the best way to eat potatoes for our glucose levels is with the skin on. The skin is the original clothing. The skin contains fiber, and fiber slows down the absorption of glucose into the blood. This idea of eating the skin applies to fruits and vegetables. If you can, keep it on.

[01:40:56] Also, if you put some clothes on your potatoes, you're all set. Slide for details. I did a bite

[01:41:03] in there.

[01:41:04] Mike: You're just going to see this next video is just gonna be us three just munching on watermelon rinds and like with our TGNs on just like, Oh, look, our blood glucose is great.

[01:41:14] Jay: Yeah.

[01:41:14] Yeah. Can you,

[01:41:15] Danny: oh good.

[01:41:16] Jay: I was going to say, can you just start with the blood glucose one? And then we'll come to the study after, cause there's actually a really interesting aspect of that

[01:41:21] study.

[01:41:22] Danny: Uh, the, the

[01:41:23] the last

[01:41:24] Jay: Yeah. Yeah. the second

[01:41:24] slide, the second slide. Sorry.

[01:41:26] Danny: uh, put some clothes on your carbs if you're eating carbs on their own, bread, corn, uh, couscous, pasta, polenta, rice, tortillas, cake, candy bars, cereal, cookies, crackers, fruit, granola, oats, hot chocolate, ice cream, or anything else with sweet, combine them with fiber, fat, and or protein, any vegetable, avocado, beans, butter, cheese, cream, eggs, fish, greek yogurt, meat, nuts, seeds, a smaller glucose spike, no crash, two hours after eating, Less insulin release, reduced inflammation, steadier mood, better skin, happier organs, happier heart, uh, reduced type 2 diabetes risk.

[01:42:01] Jay: And then we've got that, yeah, that second slide there with the, so, so what she's showing in this one, her kind of main, the, the middle one.

[01:42:08] Mike: there. Yeah.

[01:42:09] Jay: Yeah.

[01:42:11] Mike: The other one, Danny, the,

[01:42:13] Danny: I'm too

[01:42:14] fast for you

[01:42:14] guys.

[01:42:15] Jay: You are. So this was like the main, this is her main post here. Right. And then she's explaining, but this is the main one, which is that mashed potato, which I'm assuming is just plain potato with nothing else in it led to a bigger spike than the potato with the skin. That's like the highlight here. And so she's saying, eat the skin has got fiber and.

[01:42:31] The whole, her whole paradigm is built around this idea that it nearly doesn't matter what it is. If it leads to less of a glucose spike, it's better. And if it leads to more than it, then it's worse. And that's, we'll talk about details for like in this example, but just in general, it's an extremely myopic lens that misses all of the other aspects of health and physiology and what actually is going on underneath the blood glucose, what actually is driving blood glucose spikes or non blood glucose spikes.

[01:42:59] And also. If somebody is struggling with blood glucose spikes, it's often not food related, it's insulin resistance related, or they're not actually using the carbohydrates effectively, and just favoring things that lead to less of a spike isn't fixing the problem at all. But when you're coming at it as the problem is, like, what drives the problem is glucose spikes and insulin release, it leads to this result.

[01:43:20] And it's, it just, it drives people to, you know, A number of really harmful ideas. One is that everyone needs a CGM to manage their glucose spikes and to be constantly monitoring and any glucose spikes is inherently harmful and whatever you can do to minimize them is better. And obviously the extreme of that is a low carb diet and fasting, where you're going to have a constant low glucose level.

[01:43:43] Of course you have like a spike from cortisol in the morning and things like that, but otherwise it's going to be pretty constant and low, and obviously there's huge negatives to that despite a balanced. So to speak, it's not balanced. It's just a low blood sugar. And so that's, I mean, that's the biggest point I want to highlight first.

[01:43:58] It's just that this is missing out on so much. And the, the skin here, the potato is a good example, just like the skin of other potential vegetables. Like if you just throw in a bunch of fiber, raw vegetables, sure, you're going to slow gastric emptying and potentially lead to a, uh, a slower. Increase in blood glucose.

[01:44:16] Also the fiber itself will slow down that absorption. But you're also getting a ton of anti nutrients, for example, with a lot of those things. And it's one thing to have, let's say, some version of a cooked vegetable versus just having a raw vegetable, and if we're only looking at the blood glucose response, We can say, oh, well, raw vegetables fine without considering oxalate issues, fight, fight, to gas, fight, like issues, like an issues, whatever it is.

[01:44:39] Suponins, goitrogens, like a ton of things there. So the biggest point that I want to at least start with is just that we need a much larger context than what is the effect on my blood glucose from this food versus that

[01:44:50] food.

[01:44:51] Danny: Does she really recommend everybody use CGM? Is that like a common

[01:44:55] thing that they recommend?

[01:44:56] Jay: I don't know if she recommends that directly. I'm a, I would guess she does, but I don't

[01:45:00] actually know,

[01:45:01] Danny: Got it. Go

[01:45:02] Jay: but that's the extrapolation, right? Like how old you're going to know this

[01:45:05] data.

[01:45:05] Danny: Yeah, I

[01:45:06] Mike: of implied, right? Like this is all the precision medicine stuff that everybody's talking about. Now that it's like, Oh, you need a CGM. You need to do your gut microbiome all the time. You like all these different metrics. And it's not to say that some of these things can't be helpful at some times, but yeah. the basic point is like the myopic nature of some of these things. Cause you go, you know, you listen to Gabrielle Lyons and it's like, Oh, it's protein. And then like, as long as you eat enough protein and you like work out, you're good to go. And then this lady's going to talk to you about your blood sugar.

[01:45:34] And it's like, these are singular modalities that you can look at to try to see what's going on with health. But there's so much more to the picture. And it's about taking multiple elements together. And, and, and basically creating like a system for yourself that's based off of your experiences with yourself to find something that works.

[01:45:53] So maybe that is adjusting your protein intake and your carb intake and your fat intake and using red light and then whatever supplements work for you and then making sure that you have, you know, if you're dealing with blood glucose regulate, dysregulation coming off low carb or something, not getting massive glucose spikes or something like that for that period of time. But this is just not, this is not the one and only thing. That's going to make the massive difference to people's health. And again, like it becomes myopic to just say, Oh, just have all of the, you know, keep all the fiber on board. Keep all the, keep all the skins on the fruits and vegetables and things like that to lower your blood glucose.

[01:46:29] And it, it gets to a crazy point, right? Cause this was the whole argument for the low, the whole grain stuff, the whole grains argument is just, Oh, you need to have whole grains. Because they don't spike your blood sugar as much. It's like, yes, because they have a bunch of things in them that impair your digestion of those things due to their food matrix. And then your blood sugar doesn't spike as much. Number one, cause you don't absorb as much. And then number two, cause it's way harder to absorb. I think people forget primarily that the reason you're eating food is to actually get nutrient, whether that's micronutrient or macronutrient. So I don't think like if somebody was worried about their blood glucose spikes, With eating potatoes, say you're type 2 diabetic, say you're coming off of a low carb diet and you're trying to introduce carbs again and your body's still burning fats, you're not used to it, you have that transition, you don't have to eat the potato with skin so that that doesn't happen, you can have some meat with that, you can have a bit of butter in your potatoes, you can have like the raw carrot with it, you can have some fruit on the side and all of those things, Will change your blood glucose response like as far as that goes.

[01:47:30] I think that you know glucose goddess I don't know her name would probably be on board with that idea But the idea that we're just managed we just need to manage the glucose spikes And it's more valuable to eat potato skin and watermelon rind, which obviously I'm joking, that's an exaggeration, but watermelon rind just to manage your blood glucose, I think, misses the point, like, just have your carbs, have your, your potato or whatnot with your meal, have your steak and potatoes and whatever else, and like, you're good to go.

[01:47:57] You don't have to eat the skin and you do want to absorb the carbohydrate. You 100 percent want to absorb. You don't want to be doing things. that are going to impair your carbohydrate. And it's the same thing with diabetic drugs, right? It's like, oh, take A carbos. We'll block all of your carbohydrate absorption.

[01:48:10] Oh, look, your blood glucose values are better. And it's like, yes, because you didn't absorb your carbohydrates and now we're in a worse spot because now you didn't absorb the carbs that you're eating and now you're still just burning on fatty acids and upregulating gluconeogenesis because you didn't have the insulin spike. Which is another thing that I think that gets misconstrued here is that insulin is not a bad hormone. Insulin is, is a good thing. Insulin is signaling the lowering of the stress hormones. And when you have super elevated levels of insulin, I'm not talking about getting an insulin spike after you eat.

[01:48:41] That's normal. What I'm talking about is if you're chronically elevated with insulin, where you look at these studies and you say, Oh, diabetics insulin levels are this, or obese insulin levels are that. That's not because they're just slamming so many carbohydrates. It's because they have dysregulation dysfunction at the cell and that dysfunction at the cell is impairing the response to insulin and then the levels are driven up because of this dysfunction, not because of the carbohydrate in and of itself. So I think if you get into this myopic perspective, then you start to miss the forest for the trees. And you start telling people, well, you don't really need the potatoes. You just need to eat the potato skins or you don't need to have carbohydrate at all. I'm not saying she said that again. That was an exaggeration.

[01:49:22] But you get to like a perspective like Rob Wolf's where it's like, Oh, if I don't have any carbs at all, my blood glucose is flat all day long. I don't have any blood glucose spikes at all. And it's like, yeah, you don't have any blood glucose spikes at all. Congratulations. You're running on gluconeogenesis to maintain your blood sugar, which is coming at the expense of your metabolic health. Sure, you can go ahead and do that if you're heavily focused on a glucose spike or you can recognize that eating carbohydrate, raising blood sugar a bit and having an insulin response is completely normal and what you want to happen to lower those stress hormones over time.

[01:49:57] Jay: there's a huge cost to ignoring some of these things. So as you said, for one, some of the anti nutrients are direct amylase inhibitors, so they impair the breakdown of the starch. So you're just getting less of the carbohydrate, which you could accomplish that with much less downside by just eating a little bit less potato.

[01:50:12] So that's one thing to consider. Another thing is, we're ignoring all the other aspects of nutrition that drive insulin resistance in the first place. So if you eat a bunch of fiber and you have SIBO, you have a bacterial overgrowth, you produce a ton of endotoxin and an irritation in the intestines, that is going to create an insulin resistant state long term and cause a ton of damage long term, and this is clearly implicated there.

[01:50:33] And, but your blood sugar spike meal. So it was better. Like we're completely ignoring so many aspects of health by excessively focusing here and it, and it, it comes at a major cost. And, uh, again, as I was saying, if you were insulin resistant, this isn't a fix. This is just a bandaid and it's a harmful one as well.

[01:50:50] Like we're, we're ignoring potentially harmful aspects of nutrition or potentially majorly harmful things like a low carb diet, but we're ignoring just by focusing on a glucose spike. And this gets really clear because her whole thing is we need less glucose and less insulin. And when we look at that study, that first slide that she has, there's a really great quote in there because can you pull it, can you zoom in on that, Danny, because what she always suggests in addition to like having your mixed meals is having your protein and fiber first, and then having the carb second, because that leads to less of a glucose spike.

[01:51:23] And she cites this study in this, in this post, um, and one of the quotes from

[01:51:28] it.

[01:51:29] Danny: I can't. Here, let's, let's try this.

[01:51:32] Mike: on the

[01:51:33] Jay: I have it written down so I

[01:51:34] Danny: got it. We got

[01:51:34] Jay: can read it out. So it says emerging evidence

[01:51:38] suggests that pre meal consumption of non carbohydrate macronutrients, i. e. protein and fat preloads, can markedly reduce postprandial glycemia. And it says, here's how it does it. By delaying gastric emptying, enhancing glucose stimulated insulin release, and decreasing insulin clearance.

[01:51:54] Thank you. So we've talked about delaying gastric emptying being a potentially beneficial thing depending on the context. But the exact thing that she's saying is harmful, which is more insulin and more interaction between insulin and the cells is what happens when you eat protein before the carbs. So you get less of a glucose spike, but it's because it actually causes the glucose to increase insulin further.

[01:52:15] So you get a bigger insulin release. From the same carbohydrates you would have consumed and it decreases insulin clearance. So that same high level of insulin is hanging out for longer. So the exact opposite of what her stated goal is of lowering insulin, because insulin is the bad guy is what gets accomplished by her recommendation of consuming protein before

[01:52:33] the carb

[01:52:34] source

[01:52:35] Mike: I think they're saying protein and fat, right?

[01:52:37] Jay: protein and

[01:52:38] fat.

[01:52:38] Mike: Cause I think the fat. is what impairs the insulin clearance and what not because the, the fat, if you're burning fatty acids at the cell, then

[01:52:46] the cell won't pull in the glucose in response to insulin. And then the, when the insulin isn't pulled into the cell, you don't get the degradation of insulin.

[01:52:54] So you just get more insulin floating around essentially.

[01:52:58] Jay: right,

[01:52:59] Mike: So

[01:52:59] again, it's not to say that you can't have your, again, we're not saying that you can't have fat and carbs and protein together for your meal, or that eating a steak and potatoes and having some fruit after the meal is problematic. It's just that the, what you're saying, Jay, is the mechanism by which he's saying here is all this benefit in terms of controlling the blood glucose spike to just lower insulin or something like that or, or what, what have you is it's like counter to what her goal, her stated goal is or what the implied goal is with this type of perspective by leading to elevations in the fasting insulin level.

[01:53:33] Jay: uh, and postprandial insulin, but, but it's not even that. Cause she like what I'm also, or in addition to that, I should say is you don't need to make sure you eat your steak 15 minutes before you potato. Like that's not the solution here. And it actually goes against what she is suggesting is good, which is low insulin.

[01:53:50] So, I mean, we'll dig into more of her posts in the future because there's a lot here, but, um, yeah, I think, you know, I think we highlighted some of

[01:53:57] the important points

[01:53:58] here,

[01:53:58] Mike: And I, one thing I want to point is just the nuance that's important here. is I don't think anyone's saying that, like, again, cause I see people watching this and being like, Oh, they said that you can't have your protein and your fat and your meal in your meal with carbs and things like that, because it's going to make you insulin resistant or affect your insulin levels or things like that.

[01:54:19] The main piece that you're saying here is just the focusing on blood glucose levels and blood glucose spikes and the insulin stuff by itself. is quite myopic and not the complete picture. And it's like kind of an understanding of the overall thing that's going on. And in conjunction with understanding that there's more factors to pay attention to, especially when you're making a recommendation to eat potato skin, which is known to have the higher contents of the alkaloids that are poisoning and things like that.

[01:54:46] Jay: we're essentially saying is not that we disagree with every recommendation that could come from this data, some of which is eat a mixed meal with some fiber. If you're struggling with blood sugar control, that's great. We don't disagree with that inherently, but it also leads to some really erroneous recommendations like.

[01:55:01] Eating the potato skins or like eating the, you have to eat the protein before the carbs to reduce the blood sugar spike. So again, it's an issue with the framework and an issue with some of the specific recommendations as you're clarifying, like, this doesn't mean that everything she's ever recommended we think is wrong, but it's a mixed bag because of an erroneous starting place,

[01:55:20] Mike: The premise is incorrect. The frame for the argument,

[01:55:23] Jay: right,

[01:55:24] Danny: And then if you have a problem and you, uh, Internalize information like that. You're essentially like colluding with the pathology of the problem to never fix it Like so it's really important to try to find the best information possible, you know And all of us could attest to like skipping through multiple modalities before finding something that made sense But, um, that's less of a problem these days, because the information we're sharing now, like, wasn't even available, like, uh, ten years ago, you know, so, it's, it's, I'm sure we all talk about things that we wish we knew, you know, and so that's, um, a big, big part of it. Okay, so let's, uh, go to Food Lies, and, um, I don't know, Jay, do you want to set this up? What is this about?

[01:56:06] Jay: Yeah. So, I mean, it's a, it's a post from Brian Sanders of food lies. Uh, it's a, it's a good post one that I think we generally agree with and point out some of the, uh, Yeah, I mean, we'll just let it, we'll just, I think he encapsulates it

[01:56:20] pretty

[01:56:20] well, he encapsulates

[01:56:21] it pretty

[01:56:21] Mike: one, I think, let's just put it this way. This one is, I think takes the cake. For all of the, all of the posts that we've done today, like we've heard some really ridiculous things, but I think this one is probably hands down the most ridiculous and one of the most harmful things that we have heard thus far.

[01:56:40] And yeah,

[01:56:42] that'll just

[01:56:42] Jay: And I think probably a place, well no, it's a good point, I think it's probably also a place where we would have common ground with all of the prior people who we're talking about here, right? I mean, this is something that I think we can all agree is, is particularly harmful

[01:56:54] in terms

[01:56:54] of

[01:56:54] its implications.

[01:56:55] Mike: this perspective is antithetical to everyone. So like all of the people that we've heard, listen to our perspectives and everything. It's like the complete opposite. Of, you know, of what's going on, especially this, this is like the true mainstream perspective, right? Like this lady has won ridiculous amounts of awards for saying stuff like this, which is, it's just like, it's literally mind blowing.

[01:57:18] So like, this is, There you have the mainstream perspective and you have the alternative perspective when we usually pick on the alternative perspective But this perspective over here is the worst This is probably hands down like the worst perspective that you could have for your health because essentially a do nothing perspective like there's no interventions for you Except like mRNA therapies and changing your genome with CRISPR or something like that.

[01:57:41] Danny: Well, I'll read Brian's, um, summary here. So he says, I watched a 60 minutes episode with Dr. How do you say this? Fatima?

[01:57:49] Fatima?

[01:57:49] Uh, Stanford. Second slide. The USDA named Dr. Stan, Stanford to the 2025 dietary guidelines for Americans Advisory Committee of the 20 nationally recognized nutrition and public health experts since she's way smarter than I am.

[01:58:03] I'd like to tell her to tell the odds that all people with the obesity gene decided to move to those certain US states yet all their obesity has little to do with the diet. one, why do people with obesity genes hate Colorado and Massachusetts so

[01:58:17] much? She has like 30 awards and honors for her work on this.

[01:58:21] So i'm

[01:58:21] sure she'll explain it to

[01:58:22] us.

[01:58:22] Okay.

[01:58:23] Screenshare: If you diet,

[01:58:25] you lose weight,

[01:58:27] right? The number one cause of obesity is, genetics. That means if you are born to parents that have obesity, you have a 50 85 percent likelihood of having the disease yourself, even with optimal diet, exercise, sleep management, stress management.

[01:58:46] So when people see families that have obesity, the assumption

[01:58:49] is,

[01:58:50] what are they feeding

[01:58:51] those kids?

[01:58:54] Jay: Man, we need to have a gif of the interviewer. I love her faces in reaction to This

[01:59:00] Danny: This Is a recent thing like she said this in 2023.

[01:59:04] Mike: I

[01:59:04] Don't know the

[01:59:04] Jay: so, I

[01:59:05] don't know.

[01:59:06] Danny: 60 minutes is kind of an older show Uh who I mean, it doesn't matter but that's pretty well So Brian's point that was that these, some of these states were very resistant to obesity and other ones were, had huge amounts and couldn't be explained by some genetic defect, you know, that

[01:59:21] doesn't

[01:59:21] make any sense.

[01:59:22] Mike: Well, and you have the

[01:59:22] Jay: he's just saying it.

[01:59:23] Mike: below, right? So he's showing the areas of

[01:59:25] the highest fast food consumption and then the areas with the highest obesity. And it's known in the research that

[01:59:31] you have the, like the obesity belt or the diabetes belt

[01:59:35] inside the U S which is basically the vast majority of the Southern States.

[01:59:39] And I mean, it's not a surprise as to why that goes on there given the diet,

[01:59:44] but according to

[01:59:45] Jay: It's the genetics.

[01:59:46] Mike: genetics. Exactly.

[01:59:49] Danny: That makes

[01:59:49] Jay: No

[01:59:50] surprise.

[01:59:51] Danny: Well, not, not only that, but wouldn't like

[01:59:53] genetic change not be able to be that fast acting? Wouldn't that

[01:59:57] take like a huge, absolutely huge

[01:59:59] Mike: Generations, Generations,

[02:00:01] Jay: No, she's saying she, to explain this, you would have to say that that is a, that is where the concentrations of genetically obese people are, is in those states, you know, that they happen to go there. Like it's, it's weird that it's not randomly distributed, but for whatever reason, they all

[02:00:16] decided to go

[02:00:17] there.

[02:00:17] Danny: It's very strange that that's not the case, but.

[02:00:21] Mike: Well, the other thing too that you would have to explain though is like, so say you looked at the U. S. in 1901, and you looked at the percent of obesity, and then you look at the U. S. in 2001, and you look at the change in percent of obesity. To claim that, that, that you have this change in arguably two generations, and that it's genetic, Is like that.

[02:00:44] I don't think you could pull that argument off, especially if you're functioning under traditional genetic, the traditional genetic model of disease, right? Where you have random mutations that just occur over time. And then that leads to either like the, these disease outcomes or whatnot. So like to wax, a genetic argument is kind of ridiculous at its core.

[02:01:06] Jay: Well, and also the idea that if a, if family members, or there is some, there's some correlation between like being relatives of somebody or people in the family, all tending toward obesity to blame that on genetics is ignoring the like shared habits and diets of these people and the shared habits and diets of their ancestors.

[02:01:28] Right? Like not saying in a genetic way, but in an environmental way, if your parents. we're unhealthy, it is going to breed less healthy offspring. I mean, that is the, there's a number of, you know, quote epigenetic mechanisms for that happening. Um, but all those things are going to set you up to sure be more likely to be obese, but it's not because of genetics, it's because of environment and.

[02:01:49] There is one point that I think there's a kernel of truth in, which is the interviewer says, isn't it true that dieting makes you lose weight and it's kind of cut. So I don't know if she like agrees, but it is true that the standard diets are pretty ineffective. Like if you look in the research and just look at people trying diets and if they're able to lose weight effectively.

[02:02:10] For any period of time. It's, I mean, it's pretty abysmal. I mean, it's, they're extremely ineffective and that's because what they're looking at as a diet is just eating less and exercising more. The exact thing that they say. Is if it's not genetics, it's that. And so to say that there's some recognition here that eat less and exercise more, isn't the solution.

[02:02:29] I mean, obviously we agree there's validity to that for sure. It just doesn't mean that the only other answer is genetics, like just because that didn't work, didn't mean that all these people are just genetically overweight. Maybe that's something to do with things other than the number of calories coming in.

[02:02:44] Mike: Yeah. Or even, even if it was the calories, like, what are those calories? Right. This is just. That's what I'm saying. It's not just the soybean oil or whatever whatever, whatever else, how you from the, from the fast food change and what, which is, I think, is Brian Sanders point there is like how much fast food is consumed in these different areas and those states are having the highest amount of, of obesity and whatnot.

[02:03:05] So yeah, it's, The problem I have with this is that like, if it's just genetics, then it's like, well, there's nothing you can do, like no matter. And, and I think that was, Oh, is that big Well, and that

[02:03:16] is that is the, is it Barbara's Walters? Is that Barbara

[02:03:19] Walters? Is that her name? The interviewer. different. I'm not

[02:03:23] Jay: sure. Oh, what? I don't know.

[02:03:24] Mike: I don't know. It speaks to our generation. I guess. I don't know who this lady is on six.

[02:03:29] Jay: Yeah, I recognize

[02:03:30] her.

[02:03:30] She I know her face. I don't know who She

[02:03:32] Mike: is. I don't know her name, but essentially she's like,

[02:03:34] what about diet? And, and all these different things. And the lady saying, oh, you know, you're still 50 to 85 percent more likely to be obese with this.

[02:03:43] And it's like, yeah, probably not. Like if things were actually organized appropriately, I think the likelihood of obesity is pretty slim. Maybe I think if you come from a family where you're. Like your previous diet and set up, like say your family's just eats out all the time, just eats out tons of fast food, things like that.

[02:04:03] Diet's pretty terrible. And you grow up on those types of things and you are overweight or whatever. Like you may have some metabolic effects that when you get older are going to be a little bit more difficult to fix. But to say like if you start out with someone who was lean and they like lived well over the course of their life and they're just going to be fat because their parents were fat. I think that's like a really questionable argument again. And this is assuming that. Things were done appropriately and this it just puts this perspective where you, you know, even if you do all these things, you're, you're just going to be fat. There's nothing that you can do. And I think that is a terrible mindset for people.

[02:04:36] I think, you know, I think that's, that's inactivating for people. That's basically the whole genetic framework is entirely inactivating for people. It's like, it's, it has nothing to do, like, even the genetic arguments around food rewards with obesity is like, it's not your fault that your brain just makes you crave food. It's just your genetics. And so like, you're just cursed and you have to go through life with where you're constantly craving all these, all this food and, and, and you're just unable to control yourself. I think those types of arguments create mindsets and belief systems for people that allow them to not help themselves.

[02:05:12] And then that further perpetuates the problem that they deal with, or they go rely on like mainstream, uh, mainstream perspectives and, uh, solutions. And then they just get screwed. They get, they get screwed even worse because the mainstream perspectives are super damaging. Like. One to one protein to carb ratio with the rest of the diet being fat in the form of polyunsaturated fat like Come on, okay, if that's the recommendations that we're putting out there like God

[02:05:41] Jay: no wonder it's not going to work. I mean, so there's two things. One is, as you were saying, this takes agency away. And so this actually puts somebody in, would put somebody into a serotonergic learned helplessness state, which we didn't mention so clearly in that Eric Berg clip, but serotonin is the hormone of learned helplessness, but the other thing is you're getting at Mike is if the only levers we have are eating less calories and eating more heart healthy grains and seed oils.

[02:06:06] And, you know, lowering salt in our diet and we say, you know, we try those things and it doesn't work, then sure, we have to blame obesity on genetics, but it's because we're ignoring what actually is

[02:06:17] driving that state.

[02:06:19] Mike: Yeah, if our interventions that we give from traditional guidelines don't work Then it must be genetics because clearly our guidelines and our interventions

[02:06:27] are the best. It's like this type of assumption. And it's just like, or, and it's this, the same rationalization stuff with the carnivore thing. It's like, or your interventions are just bad.

[02:06:37] Maybe your interventions are just completely wrong and they don't work. Maybe your theory. Is incorrect, right? And we've, we've even talked about the with obesity, right? The idea that people who are becoming like very obese or super obese things along these lines, the problem is not that they're just chloronically gluttonous and overeating.

[02:06:57] The problem is that they have a severe metabolic issue and they're shunting all of their fuel substrate, the carbs and the fat into fat storage instead of burning it. which would describe why they feel low energy. They have the hormonal dysfunction and they're just putting on all this body fat. They are low energy.

[02:07:14] It's you, you think that, Oh, they're there. If they're chronically in a caloric excess, you would think, Oh, they're, they probably have like all this energy on board. And the problem is, no, they don't have energy on board. They have substrate, but they're not converting that substrate into energy. So if you're just thinking in terms of things of, Oh, it's calories in calories out, Then you're not going to get that because you're going to look, Oh, well this is their intake and this is their activity level. And then that's the only problem instead of you're missing this whole middle piece of the equation of, well, is this intake being converted into energy at all? And again, so that's where the theory that you're running with. the foundational frame, the presuppositions of the perspective. If that is completely incorrect, then you get arguments like this where it's like, Oh, well, since this diet or this or that isn't working, it has to just be genetics. You get this weird rationalization around, around what's going on in the system instead of recognizing. Okay. Maybe I have something wrong and maybe there actually is another solution. Maybe there's more to the picture. Maybe if I understand this better, if I had more knowledge and wisdom around the situation, I could create effective strategies, but it just, that's not what happens.

[02:08:20] You just get this, like let's just double down on our perspective of do nothingness or do things that we're already doing that aren't working. Let's do more of those.

[02:08:30] Jay: Yeah. It's the same mental gymnastics for the hormesis research, right? It's like calorie restriction doesn't help if someone's on a whole foods diet. That must be because they're already maximizing the hormetic benefit with all those polyphenols. Not because it actually caloric restriction is only beneficial because it leads to less harmful things or weight loss or whatever it is.

[02:08:50] But again, a digression and, uh, something we see in every facet here, but we can move

[02:08:56] on. Last thing, you guys have repeatedly said this, but it's like the only reason people even have to go try to find information is because institutions have failed everybody. So it's like that disperses people through all these kind of, um, modalities to see if they can improve their health because they know that the institutions are not going to effectively do anything for them.

[02:09:14] Danny: So it sucks and that we all have to learn this on our own, but, um, and then that turns into diet wars and stuff. But, um, Yeah, it's definitely not helpful to think that your genes are in control of everything and debilitating. Okay, so moving on from that, uh, let's talk, uh, end the show with tips and tricks, and I will start with this one.

[02:09:32] And today I posted on my telegram, there's a quote from Maslow, and he said, The only happy people I know are the ones who are working well at something they consider important. And then Ray had a very similar quote in his 1994 Generative Energy book, and he said, Giving maximum meaning to our lives should be one of the basic things we demand from our work.

[02:09:50] And so, uh, and I'm sure we feel a sense of, um, satisfaction, you know, with the things we do. We all like talking about this stuff and it's a joy to talk to people every day. You know, it's a feel very fortunate to do so. And even things like podcasts and stuff is just always fun. But you know that a lot of people don't feel like that.

[02:10:09] And it's a really difficult thing to navigate. You can't do that. Tell someone to quit their job or, or something like that, or nor can people just start quitting jobs and focus on something they like, you know, given, um, the monetary situation that a lot of people find themselves in today. But, um, moving towards that is always going to be probably better than not moving towards it, you know.

[02:10:28] But, it's a big question of whether a person's going to sacrifice, you know. Like, I know people who would absolutely not stop making the money they were making today to make less to do something that they preferred, you know. But, um, in my estimation, life is short and it's probably going to be worth it in the long run to be doing something you enjoy versus doing something you hate, but you're just making more money.

[02:10:47] But, to everybody, it would have to weigh the pros and cons of

[02:10:51] that, I guess. Thanks.

[02:10:52] Jay: Well, and as you're saying, that's part of, uh, part of an effect of the system, right? That's like the system puts people in a position where when they weigh it out, it has to be better to stick with the terrible job. That's making them unhappy because the alternative is, is worse. They don't have a better option.

[02:11:08] I mean, that's, that's, that's,

[02:11:09] the whole,

[02:11:10] Danny: but but also not getting intertwined in the, the rat race of like, oh, now I money more money and now I have a better car and now a better house. Now I have to make even more money. Like, and that, that is a, obviously a trap, you know? And, um, just, but yeah, I know not, not as many people are as a huge, a huge of a bum as I am.

[02:11:28] So it's pretty easy for me to say,

[02:11:32] Jay: No, but that's a great point too. Right. And that's, those are other ways that the system, so to speak, like keeps people in, in the rat race.

[02:11:39] Right.

[02:11:39] They're

[02:11:39] like in that

[02:11:40] position.

[02:11:40] Mike: I don't think, I don't think a lot of people consciously, consciously. Make a determination around their value systems. Like what are they actually placing value on? So I think for you guys, when you're talking about this, you, you both, and I mean me as well, value, our time and like fulfillment as much as money.

[02:12:00] Like, so money is important for sure. Like nobody here is saying, Oh, you don't need money. But it's that money is, isn't the only thing that you can value, right? Especially when you start understanding the, you're the value of your time, the value of your energy and, and the value of like what you're bringing into world and things like that.

[02:12:17] So it winds up becoming, instead of just more money equals better, you start having to figure out, is there, there's this balance between what am I using my time for? Like, what are my interests? What are my passions? Do I, what's making me money? And then also like, what is bringing me fulfillment and trying to navigate away so that you're marrying a lot of those things together. Because you, again, you only have so much time in a day, right? Like if you're working eight hours in a day, or even when I was working in the hospital and I was doing the 12, 14 hour shifts, like when I come home, I wasn't doing anything. Like I was eating and I was passing out. So like, And a lot of people I think work like that where they work along, you know, they walk, work long hours and then they come home and it's like, there's just no time for anything else.

[02:12:59] Or if they do have time, they're so drained that you can't really pursue your passions. Like it's stifling. And so I think that's a, that's where a lot of people get stuck in. It is really hard. Like I know when I was, for me in the hospital, it was always a stretch. Like I remember Jay, you and I would talk about this all the time. It'd be like, Oh, I need to eat. Like I need to make money, but I really like would prefer to be doing other things that I'm like more passionate about. So you're always in this crux. And then I would be like, when I had the time, I was just so tired. It's like, Oh. I can't, I can't read 50 papers today or whatever the thing is.

[02:13:35] I can't like spend this time going through this, like all these repeat articles or this book that I want to read or something like that. Like I just like getting by the bare minimum. And I think a lot of people get stuck in that.

[02:13:48] Jay: Yeah. And we were, I mean, you were young at that point, you didn't have a family to feed. It wasn't 30 years down the line where like you had been so entrenched in that. I mean, what, and really to try to, you know, sympathize with people who are that much, like in that sort of situation, it's that much harder to try to take large steps, but as you were trying to get at Danny, small steps don't make a difference.

[02:14:10] And so that can fit in here as well, whether it's finding a hobby you find fulfilling or just making. More like creating more boundaries with work, um, not taking maybe the next promotion, if it also involves a lot of stress and a lot more responsibility and working weekends and whatever it is. And maybe still trying to put a plan together.

[02:14:29] It's a longer term plan that will help shift away from that situation. So yeah, it's, I mean, it's, it's tough, obviously that they've done a good job

[02:14:40] for, for

[02:14:41] a lot of

[02:14:41] people.

[02:14:42] Mike: yeah.

[02:14:42] And, and I think just having the plan or creating the plan is the same as the rat biting the stick when it's in restraint stress and learn helplessness. So when you start to make the plan and like, figure things out as they go, I think a lot of people just don't start because they're like, Oh, this will never work. But I think if you start making the plan as you go, you'll start to figure it out. And just that alone helps to relieve stress. Just feeling like there's hope for the future in a direction is super helpful for people. The only other thing I want to add just really quick is this. One thing that bothers me around the health sphere and like the influencing stuff is that Is when you have people out there who are recommending you do these like really time expensive or these like really monetarily expensive activities to improve your health.

[02:15:24] You know, like buying a flotation device to put in your house or like these like Lodi baths filled with magnesium salts and that's like gonna fix your health and all this type of stuff. It's like, 99 percent of people are not affording that or doing that like they're not gonna buy a thousand dollar red light setup So like I think when when health influencers make some of these Recommendations it's like for me like I remember when I was going through my stuff like I didn't have that much money to do anything Like you see this like I could never do this like I can't even even working with alternative practitioners I can't pay for thousands of dollars or hundreds of dollars a month for supplements And so like, there has to be other strategies that people can do to fix their health that aren't like these extremely expensive, um, purchases or things like that.

[02:16:09] And so that's, I want to put that one out there because I think that that's something in the sphere that irritates me. Or like people saying, Oh, you should just work out. It's like, yeah, you can work out two hours a day or whatever the thing is. If you don't have to work a nine to five, five days a week, like try working out that many hours and not

[02:16:26] feeling well after like after work, it's really hard.

[02:16:29] It's not necessarily like the easiest thing to do.

[02:16:33] Danny: Well, you're what? Your blueprint that you're on right now, Mike, is what, eight grand a month? About

[02:16:38] Mike: What

[02:16:38] Danny: Brian Johnson, but Brian Johnson, I was I was bringing back the joke. I was bringing it back

[02:16:44] Mike: I was like really thinking I was like, Oh

[02:16:48] Jay: Yeah, like, yeah, it was a way back that callback. Uh, and obviously like, it's okay to suggest things that are more expensive, but I think what you're getting at Mike is it's not like that is what is going to prevent you from getting healthy, right? You don't need to have the super expensive sauna or whatever the, um, incredibly expensive supplement is to be healthy.

[02:17:13] You have the option of getting something that might help to support your health and is expensive, you know, there's nothing wrong with mentioning that, but there's a lot of inexpensive things that can be done or free things that can be done that make a huge difference. But there's also the reality that, you know, Organic produce is more expensive and grass fed meat is more expensive and pastured eggs are more expensive and buying non polyester and nylon clothing is more expensive, you know, so there's, there's certain realities of, of those things as well.

[02:17:41] And again, that none of this, I think the most important point you're trying to get to Mike is none of this is trying to say that if you can't do any one of those things, you can't improve your health. But if you have the means to do some of these things, it will help take you an extra step further. And, uh, I think that's a healthier perspective than you need to buy this multi thousand dollar piece of equipment to be

[02:18:02] healthy.

[02:18:04] Mike: yeah, I, I, my image and I have in my mind is I remember listening when I was younger to Dave Asprey stuff and he had like the flotation tank and the sauna and the cold water stuff and like all these supplements and drugs and everything. And it was like, There was like, I remember I was like, I could, I can never afford this stuff.

[02:18:20] Like, especially at that point, like there was no way that it was happening. And so I was just like, there has to be a better way to get to optimal health and doing this stuff. And then like Brian Johnson is like the next, the, the bio hacker, expensive, uh, personalized health person du jour, who's like promoting. My million dollar a year stack to live forever and it's just like that it's not really that helpful for people Maybe it's fun and interesting but like yeah, it's like for a lot of people It's almost like a smack in the face Like you spend a million dollars a year just in your health like i'm trying to make a i'm trying to make like a buck 50 a year so I can feed my four kids and and have my wife at home or things like that

[02:19:01]

[02:19:01] Mike: Yeah.

[02:19:01] that's it. I don't know no more for me

[02:19:04] Jay: think those, I mean, that was obviously a solid tip and trick to discuss. Maybe we'll leave mine and Mike's for another time since we got to wrap up here.

[02:19:12] Danny: got it? Okay. Hey, thank you guys so much We have an amazing audience really appreciate you guys and we'll be back whenever this podcast is released again We'll talk to you guys soon. Peace out. Everybody.