Jay Feldman: 
Welcome to episode nine of The Bioenergetic View. In today's episode, we'll be talking about Anthony Chafee's view that ketosis is the natural metabolic state for humans and animals. We'll be talking about whether element T is a scam, and we'll also discuss whether we should be getting vitamin D from our food and how to navigate a low PUFA diet.And with that, let's get started. Alright, so I'd like to begin by introducing Theresa Pela, who will be the new host of the Bioenergetic View. Theresa is a health coach and she specializes on resolving psychological and emotional issues through a bioenergetic lens. We're really excited to have her here joining us.Theresa, welcome and feel free to hop in and maybe share a little bit about yourself. 

Theresa Piela: Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks guys. I think a big piece of my non-linear winding journey was. Becoming so chronically ill myself unable to walk, unable to get out of bed. I couldn't have bowel movements on my own.

I was at the point where I was 79 pounds. I looked like ET felt pretty close to death. And stumbled across the carnivore community after trying everything from, autoimmune paleo, specific carbohydrate diet, low fod map fruitarian, really strict raw vegan. I had tried everything and when I found the carnivore diet, I thought, alright, okay.

I finally found my ticket to health and it did provide some relief until I realized I was in another catch 22 and I started to notice I needed to make some changes. Otherwise, I'd be in another sticky situation. And then I came across. Ray Peat's work actually, and started to find, feel a sense of hope for the first time feeling like none of my doctors, none of the best experts in the world had ever explained health to me in such a beautiful and full way.

And I started absorbing and following your content and just diving more into the world of understanding energy production and mitochondrial function and what's blocking it, understanding a lot of the things I was doing at my doctor's recommendations were actually keeping me in a really hypometabolic and really sickly state.

Not to mention the psychological effects when you are that chronically ill for so long where you can't, even bending over to put on pants, that was about as much strength and energy as I had, and it was not only humbling, but it was terrifying to be there and to feel like no one had answers.

Yeah finding a, an understanding that started to make sense and give me things that I could experiment with and not have to rely on someone else to give me these really strict protocols and diets and injections and antibiotics and IVs, and starting to  regain my health and to feel the shift in my worldview, but in basic function.

So I've been continuing in this world of, yeah, I guess we'd sum it up as pro metabolic nutrition. I know some people have a misunderstanding of that, which I know will break down further, but it's been amazing to see the effect in my own life and then helping other people specifically with pretty severe chronic illness and psychological imbalances because of their chronic illness and, the bi-directional relationship there.

But yeah, I'm excited to be here. Excited to step in as host, and excited to get going today. 

Jay Feldman: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. It's an incredible story and I know you've shared a lot of it. You do a lot of great posts on Instagram, digging through all different aspects of health and I think you, you do a great job of making it digestible, but still getting into some cool studies and really practical tips that can be helpful for people, but also, sharing that journey, which is such a powerful one.

And yeah, obviously we're like really happy to have you here. Very excited and yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Mike, go ahead. 

Mike Fave: Yeah, I think that it's we've actually had a client in common and one of the components that, that I noticed with you working with the same client as myself was that you focus on an area that I think is often not heavily discussed inside the bioenergetic sphere, and there's only like mild lip service given to it.

It's the idea of emotional and psychological stress and trauma and how that impacts the different systems. And given that stress is a central part of this, I think it's great to have you on board with us and to talk about these different components because I think you bring a perspective that, is lacking in the sphere around the element of emotional and psychological stress.

Because I know that, and correct me if I'm wrong, that's a heavy area that you focus on, Theresa. So I think it's gonna be a great balance. We have the biochemistry and then we also have the emotional and psychological component that we can blend together to talk, to have different lenses and [00:05:00] perspectives on how people can get better and what are some of the core dysfunctions and problems that they could be experiencing from carnivore, from all these different diets.

'cause we also share, all of us share a relatively similar journey in terms of running the dietary gauntlet and then coming to the back end and like basically getting to the bottom of that funnel and hitting bioenergetic and then being like, oh wow, this perspective is massively different. So I. I think it's great to have you on board.

I'm excited and I think that it, this, your addition to the team is gonna be a really well-rounded perspective or held to be a well-rounded perspective to this like very bio biochemistry, mechanism focused stuff where that Jay and I tend to heavily focus on. So I'm excited. I think it'll be great and at a really valuable lens.

Theresa Piela: Yeah. I'm biased, but I definitely agree and I think I'm grateful for people like you two for detailing and explaining the mechanisms, and it can take people to a certain point where they're no longer stuck in the catch 22, and then with that extra energy, they can  then start to understand the accumulated stress maybe from early life that they'd never really looked at.

Because I do believe that, and I think you, you two have mentioned this quite a bit, there's a cumulative effect if we're turning on these stress pathways over and over again, and most people don't realize that. Their own internal dialogue or the way their parents treated them or having been bullied in school, that has had an effect that might be impacting their ability to get better.

So yeah it's, it all matters. We can't just focus on one, one thing, but it all adds up. 

Jay Feldman: Yeah. And not to mention, this is something that Ray talked about a lot. You mentioned this, Mike, that this is an area that I think is underappreciated and under-discussed, but I think it was one of the most unique and enjoyable things about listening and reading Ray's work is that it was so holistic in that it did address, like, how is your life?

Are you enjoying it? Do you enjoy your food? What are your relationships like? What you  know, are you getting, do you have a stimulating life? Are you stuck in routine, considering the all the other sides here that of course. All have incredible value and it's, I think it's, when we're talking about the bioenergetic lens, it's, just as important as anything else.

Mike Fave: I think also going through these different diets. I remember when I was on low carb and I was on carnivore, when I was doing keto, when I was doing fasting, my general disposition as a person is, was significantly different than I am now. And I've seen that happen time and time again with clients.

And then even now, if I do something that affects my digestive function significantly, that will also drastically change my mood, my emotional state and things like this. So they all go hand in, and even external life events that could trigger strong, stressful reactions will have direct effects physiologically, at least for me.

If you get any type of travel problems or things like this. Or whatever the deal is basically trigger you get the strong emotional reaction and then my digestion starts to go. You start to get the adrenaline rush, you start to sweat. So I think that there, there's this  bi-directional interplay between emotions, between the psychological component, perceptions of stress, and then also what goes on physiologically and on the biochemical level.

So I think looking at all sides is exceptionally important. And I think even working with people, one thing that you mentioned, Theresa, I think is extremely valuable, is the idea of the, of having like a self-accountability. So I guess you implied it where you took your journey into your own hands and you start, you took accountability and so you had some self-reliance for your health.

Those are also central points, Jay that Dr. Peat has mentioned that you also alluded to. And I think the tying of all these things together is. I think really key in people actually getting better and moving through that journey. So we'll be, because we've gone through the journey and because we have these different perspectives here, we can help people to understand what they can expect as they go through these journeys from an emotional standpoint, a psychological standpoint, and then also biochemical standpoint.

And then tie all of that together into one picture to explain how and that's what I think this while also dispelling some of the craziness that we're gonna see here in just a few moments. So I think all of this together will be a great combination and help to provide a well-rounded perspective for people to actually get better.

'cause again, that's our, the fundamental goal for us is for people to recover their health, improve their health, and make significant gains in their health from where they are now, and understand what that journey entails. 'cause oft oftentimes it's not a linear up. The graph can trend up, but it can go, it has a different trend at different times.

So I think this is what's gonna be important while, again, breaking down some of these. Crazy health trends that we see that can bring us in the other direction. 

Theresa Piela: Yeah, you just reminded me of something Peat said that has stuck with me for quite some time, but he phrased it beautifully talking about how one of the healthiest, one of the healthiest signs that someone is healing and changing is that they're no longer thinking about their health.

Which I think puts us in a kind of tricky situation because we're bombarded with a lot of information and we are actively wanting to get out of the symptoms that feel like they're keeping us from living a vibrant, energetic, rich life. So I think we can bring some nuance in there and maybe remind people that the manner in which they go about the research and implementing these experiments and the things they are doing to try to improve their health.

If it's creating more stress, we're not thinking, we're not going about it in a way that is helpful. And generative 

Mike Fave: conduce is to minimizing your stress overall. 

Theresa Piela: Should we jump into. Some of the videos for today. 

Mike Fave: Let's do it. Yeah. So let's, so speaking of strategies that are probably not conducive to minimizing stress, we're gonna jump right in here to a clip from our friend Dr.

Anthony Chaffee. 

Theresa Piela: And I'm so excited. I actually hadn't heard of him, but I think I would've been very swayed by him in my carnivore days when, it felt like it was the answer. So it's interesting to look at now, but I'll, let's give it.

Anthony: The vast majority of animals on earth, including humans in the wild, are in a ketogenic state that is the natural state of most animals. That's the natural metabolic state of humans when we're in the wild eating our natural diet. But we've looked at lions, we've looked at wolves. They're all in ketosis.

Even if you look at cows and gorillas, they tend to be in ketosis as well. That's because they aren't running on carbohydrates, even though they eat fibrous plants, which are strings of glucose, they don't break those down. No vertebrate animal can break down cellulose. It's the bacteria in their gut that ferment and eat the fiber.

And as a byproduct, excrete short chain fatty acids, which are a hundred percent saturated, and then those bacteria die off and they're absorbed as protein. So gorilla is eating leaves and a cow is eating grass, but what they're absorbing is fat and protein, just like a lion, just like a wolf, just like we're supposed to.

And so they're all going to be in that ketogenic starvation state, but they're not. That's a normal metabolic state. 

Theresa Piela: Okay. 

Anthony: Oh boy. 

Theresa Piela: I guess we've been doing it wrong, guys. But Jerry, fill us in a little bit. I know that video really stood out to you and just from someone who's really confused, maybe they're thinking about starting a carnivore diet, maybe they're experiencing weird symptoms.

What would you have to say to this person, especially in this context? 

Jay Feldman: Yeah it's a question of where to start because there's a lot of claims made here, and I don't think any of them are true in any sense. So we have let's start from the top. 

Theresa Piela: Let's just go, we'll start 

Jay Feldman: from the top.

Yeah. So first the idea that the vast majority of animals on earth, including humans in the wild, are in ketosis in their natural bed state, and. Even, maybe we'll just start with the humans side of things. We have data on tons of native cultures currently. Obviously they're in a slightly different environment now from what they may have been, but we also have lots of accounts of cultures who you know, of native cultures and what they're eating.

And I have never seen evidence of a single one that's  in ketosis. The ones that you could argue are maybe closest would be the Inuit and Eskimos who don't really have any carbs in their diet, but they tend to eat a pretty decently high protein diet. And they also have a lot of fresh meat that has glycogen in there.

And so between those two things, they tend to produce a lot of glucose. They have glucose from the glycogen and they produce a lot of glucose from the protein through gluconeogenesis. And those things prevent them from getting into a ketogenic state. So there's that side. They also actually have a genetic mutation that reduces their utilization of fat in the mitochondria.

So they actually, I. Seemingly evolutionarily have adaptations to prevent them from being in constant ketosis, and they're by far the ones who would be closest because every other culture that you see has access to carbohydrates and consumes them in differing amounts throughout the year. So I, it just doesn like, I, I don't know how you can make a claim that the majority of humans in their natural state, at least if you're talking about the present, are in ketosis when they're, it's just blatantly not true.

And honestly, the same goes for animals, including the examples he gave. It's to to say that the majority of animals are in ketosis, it's, I don't know, I don't know how somebody makes, says something like that on any platform that's like there, there's a couple of possibilities that I see, either one, there's confusion around what ketosis is, because ketosis is not just the absence of consuming carbohydrates, and it's not just the consumption of fat.

So maybe there is some, maybe Anthony Chaffe does not understand what ketosis is. That's possible, or it's just entirely made up, or he's intentionally providing false information to suggest to people that this is a healthy state. I don't know which it is, but there's no evidence of humans in ketosis, naturally in a Fed state.

And when it comes to animals, e even the ones that you would think are closest, like the carnivores that he mentioned, like lions and wolves, they consume really high protein diets and their bodies are  basically adapted to that in that they are they have a tendency to convert that protein into glucose in extremely high amounts, much more than we do in a normal diet.

Of course, if we consume a lot of protein, the same happens. But carnivores, whether we're talking lions, wolves, or cats, dogs convert massive amounts of protein to glucose. That's their main. Source of glucose is coming from that protein, and it prevents them from being in ketosis. None of them that I've, again, I've never seen ev any evidence of any of those animals being in ketosis and having measurable levels of ketones at any point.

And that's because they run so heavily on glucose that's produced from protein. Considering the lack of evidence of ketosis in humans and animals, you might be wondering how to construct the optimal diet for you, assuming that this is not a ketogenic diet, and that's why I've created the Energy Balance Food Guide to help you determine exactly what to eat to optimally support your metabolism and help you lose weight, improve your digestion, get amazing sleep, boost your energy, and so much more.

The Energy Balance Food Guide is a one page infographic that organizes foods on a spectrum based on how effectively they support your metabolism, and it also has a separate spectrum that adjusts the scale for you in the case that you're dealing with various digestive symptoms. The food guide makes it extremely easy to get started with a bioenergetic approach to optimizing your health.

So head over to jay feldman wellness.com/guide to download your free energy balance food guide. I'll let you hop in, Mike, and then maybe we'll continue dig into some details. 

Mike Fave: I think there's just, I think there's a couple claims that he makes that are just like, there's some, there are some truths in there, and then there's things that are just like I don't even know where he got it from.

Like I was trying to find evidence to support what he was saying, and I could not. But essentially, one, just like blatantly off the top, the natural state of humans and animal of all animals, or the vast majority of animals is not ketosis like and full stop. Wrong, incorrect. Now I have evidence to support this with the animals that he showed and that he cited.

And then Jay, you've already covered the population side. Multiple different human populations have varying degrees of carbohydrate consumption depending on where they live and what food they have access to all across the world. And we have multiple populations that we can look at to see.

You can make arguments from paleolithic copper lists, which is basically fossilized stool samples, and then try to extrapolate from there. But I think the best evidence that we can go for now is what we see with E, the population information we have over the past couple hundred years looking at what intakes were, and they're not showing the vast majority of populations being ketosis.

Now, humans can enter ketosis and so can animals, but that doesn't mean that it's the default state. If anything, it is a backup state, as we've discussed previously, when lack of carbohydrate is present to basically. Decrease the amount of gluconeogenesis we need to rely on so we don't shred our lean tissue and rapidly move through glycerol backbone and components like this.

So we start to rely on some ketones to spare some of the carbohydrate production so that the brain can use some of the ketones and then the rest of the tissue shift towards fat oxidation. But with that, even within animals. As you pointed at Jay, you have a couple animals here that are known to be pure carnivorous animals and are usually used as the best evidence for low carbohydrate or carnivorous diets when, and especially when they start to look at comparative physiology between human GI tracts and some of these animals like dogs.

Things like this and essentially, so let's take dogs as an example. As you mentioned, Jay Dogs actually run a, or wolves as an example, run a high amount of gluconeogenesis. Meaning they high protein diets and convert the amino acids to glucose and they enter ketosis in times of famine, which is very similar to humans.

And so we, I actually have a quote here. They say during times of low food availability, dogs have been shown to very effectively utilized body fat resources for energy purposes. They said it was estimated that the contribution of ketone bodies to the daily energy requirement of dogs increased from 7% in overnight facet state to 13% after 10 days of starvation.

So you have a circumstance where even after 10 days of starvation, you're only seeing ketones at 13% or meeting the 13% of energy requirement even in these carnivorous animals. So it's like where would the vast majority of their other energy requirements coming from? You have fat oxidation and you also have some carbox station through gluconeogenesis.

And then in cats, which are even more carnivorous than dogs like cure carnivores, that the researchers basically say. Cats have a, don't have a pro, a high protein requirement. They say they don't have a high protein requirement per se, but rather a secondarily elevated protein requirement in response to a high endogenous glucose demand.

So the cats are running high. That's a quote from the study. The cats are running high amounts of neogenesis to support their glucose production. So just looking at the carnivores, the carnivorous animals, no, they're actually pushing towards gluconeogenesis and they're trying to have a higher protein intake to meet that gluconeogenic demand on top of other things, and they're adapted for that.

So their livers and their enzymatic function is a little bit different than humans to adapt for that, which kind of mirrors what with the Inuits and the Eskimos, as you pointed out, Jay, that they're adapted to actually manage the effect of running, being in a circumstance where they have to rely very heavily on, on fats from their diet 'cause they don't have adequate carbohydrates.

They start to make adaptations to the bu. And then when you start to look at other animal populations, so Dr. Chaffee mentions gorillas. And he says that they basically, the vast majority of their energy intake is coming from short chain fatty acids, which is indeed true. There is a large portion of it coming from short chain fatty acids, but even with that, about 16% of their energy is still coming from glucose.

And then on top of that, the physiology of gorillas is massively different from humans in terms of digestive function with a hugely expanded colon and a much smaller, small intestine indicating that the vast majority of the food that they should be getting from their diet or their calories or energy should be from fermentation, whereas humans rely on absorption.

And so those are gonna change things as well. Because humans don't have the same colon size, we cannot produce as much short chain fatty acids. And we also at the same time, we don't absorb the short-chain fatty acids from the colon as readily as gorillas do. So these are things where it's like you can, you're comparing apples to oranges to, and to make the point.

And when you actually get granular with it, it doesn't make sense. And even with that, our closest relatives. Genetically, our chimpanzees, not gorillas, and their diet can be as high as 94% carbohydrates from fruits specifically. And we are closer to the chimpanzees and our physiology, digestively is closer to chimpanzees than it is gorillas.

And then the last one I want to get to here is cows. The with cows, something to point out is that ketosis in cows is actually a serious concern. So they have, in cows you have a disease called subclinical ketosis. And essentially what they say is that sub clinical ketosis is associated with reduced fertility, increased susceptibility to secondary diseases like mastitis, metritis, fatty liver, and placement of the abum, which is basically one of the ru portions of the rumen.

And what is that when cows are in a circumstance where they're lactating. They have to take glucose and they have to shift it towards lactose production. And if their energy availability and their metabolic state is poor, they start to shift into ketosis. And it actually is not good for the cow.

It's basically indicating like an energetic failure. So if you do find a cow in nature that's in ketosis, you need to help it. You wanna make sure, you wanna make sure that it does not stay. And this is subclinical ketosis. This is low levels of ketosis. 'cause you can get a ketoacidosis state in cows in very serious metabolic states and things like this.

So just even the animals, every single animal that he cited, it's not. It doesn't seem true that the default state and major state for them is ketosis under normal fed conditions, perhaps in famine conditions, which is a, or because again, like even these animals have low carbohydrate intake like wolves and cats are not really eating high carbs, but they are still having adaptations to push towards carbohydrate production.

So altogether what we're seeing is it's not the default state that has ketosis. So just blatantly incorrect and not to mention like, I'm not gonna go through all the animals, but the rest of the animals of the world, we can make like huge arguments against kids against ketosis being the default state here.

The last point I wanna point out that was just like this one I didn't even go to do research on, but the idea that the dead bacteria in the colon of the gorillas is supplying the protein requirement. It was quite interesting for me and I couldn't find support for that. Yeah. For that general idea in in the research I looked a little bit, but I, that one I was like, I don't know.

I don't know where he got the one from, but I would love to see some studies showing that bacterial proteins are a good source of dietary protein or amino acids per humans. Or callous. Or gorillas. 

Jay Feldman: Or gorillas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of claims, as you were saying and he was specifically saying that this is, that they're in ketosis in a fed state.

Just to clarify, he was saying, this is not a starvation state. This is what's happening in the Fed State. 'cause we know for a lot of animals, humans included, if you're starving, you go into ketosis. If you're fasting, you go into ketosis. So we already know that. He's acknowledging that, but he's saying it's not just an unhealthy state that happens when you starve.

It's also a healthy state that happens when you're fed just like in all animals and humans. Yet there's literally no support for that. 

Theresa Piela: Okay, so back to the absorbing of the bacteria and not finding evidence. I also couldn't find evidence, although I thought it was wildly creative, and it seems like a great idea.

Mike Fave: Maybe. But I think a lot of bacterial proteins are actually highly problematic and are immunogenic triggers. So like I think that if you're absorbing high amount of bacterial proteins into your bloodstream, then that's actually indicative of a problem. And even in the subclinical ketosis for cows, some of them were characterized by higher levels of endotoxin and bacterial DNA, which was indicative of like basically intestinal  permeability.

And even if you were to have bacterial, like again I don't know if the gorilla has proteases and differing components inside its colon that allow it to actually break down proteins there. But I think it's unlikely that's the, I think that's highly unlikely that's the case. 'cause the col, the gorillas digestive physiology is semi similar to a humans in the sense that it has a small intestine and then it has the a colon after.

So a hind gun fer fermentation platform. And then what you basically see is in the small intestine is where you would see proteases, pancreatic enzymes and things like this that would break down the proteins. So I don't think that I think that's very tenuous statement. I would like to see evidence to support that statement and I would be open to seeing that evidence and then talking about it.

But as far as what, from what I could see, I couldn't see that that being the case, nor did it seem, it seems like most animals are trying to actually adapt to provide adequate glucose despite their diet. Not to minimize glucose at all means possible. It's like we don't eat that much carbs, so we're gonna eat a bunch of protein and then we're gonna have our livers adapt over time so that now we produce a crap ton of glucose, which is essentially what with cats and what with wolves.

And then also dogs, but it's a little bit unfair with dogs 'cause dogs actually have adaptations that allow them to actually absorb carbohydrate better than wolves do because of their interaction with humans, which is also interesting, right? You haven't, when you're exposed to carbohydrate, you start to have adaptations to start to absorb and process carbohydrate.

Which is oh, that's very interesting. You, especially if you know you don't really want this carbohydrate 'cause it's, it, this exogenous carbohydrate is problematic. So it, I, the lines of evidence I think are in opposition of what Dr. Chaffee is saying here. And again, I would love to see some degree of citation and support for the claims that he is making in this clip.

Jay Feldman: Yeah. And as you're saying, look at to what extent we go to physiologically, not just we, but all animals, to not go into ketosis. Look at how much trouble we go through. It's really  inefficient, relatively pretty inefficient to convert protein into glucose. Yet we'd still prefer to do that than to rely on ketosis.

Not just us, but of course other animals will. And to go back through, a couple of these, and I wanted to clarify, 'cause Mike, earlier you were saying, yeah, some of these animals in starvation and fasting will go into ketosis, but. Dr. Chaffe is specifically saying that in the Fed State that's going to happen.

He's saying that yes, in starvation, of course we'll go into ketosis, animals, we'll go into ketosis, but this is also a healthy fed state. This isn't just the unhealthy starvation state yet again, no evidence for that in any animal that I've seen, with the exception of cows. You mentioned ketosis being a state of concern for cows, and it does seem to be a state of undernutrition.

They also seem, I've seen a couple studies where they have very low levels of ketones at baseline. It's lower than like a human in ketosis, but they do have a little bit, and part of that might have to do with those short chain fatty acids that they're absorbing. But even they really are an exception to the rule of nearly every single other animal species out there.

And, looking at gorillas as an example, he mentioned them specifically, yet I've only seen one study looking at ketone levels in the urine of gorillas, and it found no ketones. So again I don't know how you can come up with these things. Again, it seems like it's something where it's. So someone just said, Hey, they're not eating carbohydrates.

So they're all in ketosis and I'm gonna spread that to the whole world despite it being blatantly incorrect. But there are a couple other things I wanted to come back to really quickly. So one is that of course, he isn't suggesting that we should be relying on short-chain fatty acids from bacteria in the gut.

I don't think, I don't think he's saying to eat a high fiber diet. He was more so just saying that as a, as evidence that these other animals are in ketosis. But short chain fatty acids are actually metabolized much more similarly to glucose. So on one hand we have acetate, which is going to be basically used in the mitochondria much more similarly to glucose than a long-chain fatty acid.

But then we have propionate, which is another shorthand fatty acid that's normally a direct precursor to, to glucose in terms of gluconeogenesis in the liver. So even if an animal's relying largely on short chain fatty acids for fuel, they're still not going to be in the similar state to a low carb, high fat diet from.

That you would get with a lot more longer chain fats, which is probably why you don't see gorillas in ketosis. And again, just to be clear here, whether we're talking carnivores in the wild, we're talking hind gun, hind gut, fermentors for gut fermentors, rodents, apes, and you mentioned chimps.

Of course, Mike are closest relatives, but also most vast majority of apes, orangutans and also monkeys. Marine mammals like dolphins, birds, none of them are in ketosis as their natural quote unquote natural state. When they're eating, they're starving. Different story of course. As we know, ketosis is great for turning down your metabolism when you're starving.

It's really effective at that. The stress hormones are involved there to create some of those signals turned down thyroid hormone conversion and decrease reproductive activity and all of that. But that's very different from what happens in the Fed state. And I, yeah, I don't see any way around that.

And it's again, just crazy to me to. Make a  claim like that, which I don't even think is necessary at all. Like it doesn't matter. You could make, easily make the argument that no other animal is in ketosis, but we are, and it's healthy for us. So to go out of your way to make this claim is if that's like such important evidence because of course we, it you have to look really hard.

What's that? 

Mike Fave: It's just pure conflation. It doesn't even, it is, you're basically getting a point. It doesn't have any bearing on the perspective here. If this is what works for one animal, that's of course it must be the optimal for all animals. It's like a logical 

Jay Feldman: conclusion. That's level, that's the level of reasoning that we're talking about, which is I think says a lot about the kinds of arguments that tend to be persuasive in the keto carnivore world, but also to need to rely on that sort of evidence and for it to be entirely false at the same time I think is says a lot.

Mike Fave: Yeah. And this, the other thing too is this goes with other lines of evidence. Just the idea that ketones have these specific benefits. It's yeah. They help to protect some of the negative effects that you have. When you get into this like extreme starvation state, it's oh, they spare muscle.

It's yeah, that's the goal. That's what you're trying to have happen when you don't have carbohydrate coming in or you're fasting or you don't have any intake coming in at all. It's like this, the whole, this is why I think the context of this stuff is important to understand, which it gets taken out of context, right?

It's oh, keto ketones have these effects, so they must be good. And it's okay, they do have these effects. Fine. We could talk about some of their effects. But it's in order to actually induce ketosis and these different models, you have to either in humans drastically restrict carbohydrate intake to a point that for most of the population, it is not a typical intake.

Or in other animals, you have to starve them. Like they, like the dogs had to be fasted for 10 days to bump from 7% amount of ketones over a 12 to 12 hour fast to go to a 13% production of ketones or ketones supplying for energy production. So it's like you have, you're going to drastic steps to try to induce the state and then say, see, look, these ketones have this benefits overall, and then this must be the default state.

And it's again, like more inflationary arguments and not understanding like the context in which these things are developing or even the context between the different organisms to make the arguments. So I think that's, this is it just doesn't, it doesn't hold water when you actually look at the claims, which is why it's surprising that you go up and make a claim like this without like citing it, providing evidence because it's pretty bold.

It's a pretty bold claim. Because it it's pretty well understood that that's generally not true. So you have to really cite a lot of information to, to show that the, like the counter perspective, which is, it apparently isn't done here. 

Theresa Piela: I was hopeful that he would include some sources to look into.'cause I found it, it chaotic to try to understand all of these claims that he made that just led nowhere. But yeah, I think there's something alluring about it being natural and even just that if we frame something as, Ooh, this is natural, this is what's happening in the anal animal kingdom.

I wonder if there's something about that kind of feels captivating and we wanna believe it because we want something, something about natural feels like it must be true. Whereas, okay, let's look at how glucose is metabolized and how much more energy we can make from that. How it is our preferred energy source.

Can we see that as something that is maybe more natural? And then, it starts to feel equally, if not more alluring when we start to see how that might benefit us. 

Mike Fave: That's true. I think the emotional appeal of naturalism is something that you see with different diets, right? So a lot of different diet, like even the plant-based diets, it's like you, they have the same arguments on that side.

It's gorillas eat mostly plants. And we're related to gorillas. That's our natural diet.

Our digestive tracts are massively different. It's you don't put sugar in a gas tank of a car. It's they're not even related. It's we're talking about oxidation reactions and di how different fuel sources are processed between different systems. And it's like the cars use gasoline and humans use carbohydrate and also fatty acids.

So it's  this weird, you get these weird parallels and then it gets wrapped in this feeling of it's natural. It, it's, it with the carnivore stuff, it's like, it's primal. And then with the plant-based stuff, it's oh it's green. It's natural. It's what it, and I think that people do actually get.

Wrapped up into the, into some of these perspectives. I think that's a good point. 'cause it's not, I think a lot of it doesn't necessarily come from a place of logical or rational thinking. It's more of like how that perspective makes you feel. It's yeah, of course it's natural. And then it goes with some of the confirmation bias of what I'm doing is, if all the other animals are doing this, then yeah, this is the right way to go.

And then then it must feel right and 'cause it confirms what my perspective is. But again, when you break it down, you go through the research, you start looking at things from a rational perspective, it's like it falls flat. So that's a good point. 'cause for Jay, you and I are looking at this and we're like, what is going on here?

What is being said? Oh, I felt 

Theresa Piela: that too. Bye. Alright let's learn a little bit about an element. Let's see what Tony has to say about it. 

Can we please stop pretending that this isn't some massive scam element? The electrolyte supplement element? Element. Go to drink element.com/huberman.

It's table salt that costs $45. I know some of the biggest podcasters in the world are selling it to you, but when you just judge element based on what it is and not just who's selling it to you, you almost shouldn't even be able to call it an electrolyte supplement. All a good supplement does is fill in a gap that exists in your diet, and there's a handful of electrolytes that your body needs at certain amounts, but Element is almost entirely just salt, which is one of them, but it's also one of the only ones that most people already get too much of.

And Element provides either none or basically none of any of the other electrolytes that we aren't getting enough of. And I get it, we lose salt when we sweat. That's true. But every study that's been done on this has shown no benefit to your workouts when taking it. And any benefit that's ever been noticed from electrolytes is only if it's paired with carbs or sugar.

Which element has none of either it's expensive water flavoring at the end of the day. 

Theresa Piela: I gotta say it is delicious. Have you had it before? Oh my gosh. I used to be slightly addicted to it until I realized, how much I was spending on it and how imbalanced it was. But I gotta say, the flavors are incredible.

And especially living at high altitude, I will notice that I don't get the same thirst cues that I think are appropriate for keeping my body getting enough fluids. And it is helpful in that sense. But you can, we can talk about this, but I found if I just switched to, water with some juice and some salt, it was just as hydrating and way more affordable 

Mike Fave: for me.

It was like, I looked at the ingredients, like this is just straight up salt. And I think with this specific short, it's a little bit unfair because element spawned, element T element whatever, salt, whatever we're gonna call it spawned. Out of, I think it was Rob Wolf was the guy who created this, if I remember correctly.

And this came out of a keto background. So the reason that Element existed wasn't just to like, give people a generic electrolyte replacement, like now it's come to that. But it was spec, it was formulated based on people who are running keto diets like or low carb, paleo keto diets along the lines of what Rob Wolf was doing because during ketogenesis.

You have what they call the na ESIS of fasting. So you have a circumstance where when you enter low carb diets, ketogenesis or fasting, you start to dump salt in your urine. You lose a large portion of salt, you lose a large portion of water. And then long term that al that activates thera system, which causes a retention of sodium, but a loss of potassium.

So the idea inside from Element T was to provide a supplement for people who are running low carb diets to help mi minimize the salt, the sodium loss. Because a lot of people found that when they had, when they repleted electrolytes on the keto diet, they felt better overall. 'cause a lot of people running keto and low carb  diets get dehydrated and they can develop electrolyte imbalances, especially in the short term.

There's effects. They talk about the RA system, upregulation being part of the keto flu that people experience. But then even in the long term, negative effects depending on how the diet is set up with potassium status, sodium status, magnesium status, and calcium status as well as sodium status.

So I think the it's a little bit unfair the preface of it, but I think the general take home message of the short is correct. This is just expensive flavored salt. And also from my perspective, when I'm looking to target an electrolyte repletion one, I think carbohydrates are essential for this.

'cause there's insulin signalings involved in rehydration and electrolyte balance as, and then on top of that, having adequate amounts of the different electrolytes, potassium, sodium, calcium, magnesium. So I, so LMNT is a, like I have a lot of clients who've used it. It's actually a problem for me 'cause it can, when I start to add in carbs and whatnot, it skews sodium to potassium balance and a not really great way.

So sodium's important. But in order to manage the RAs system effectively, you also want to have a decent amount of potassium. So with LMT just largely providing sodium, it oftentimes, I don't think it's great for people who are not running a keto diet. I think it can skew some of the balance. And I also think it is overpriced and they, people could just use regular salt on their food, put a pinch of salt on their water.

And then also, I typically try to get all of the electrolytes in, so I'm using multiple different components. And again, a lot of times I'm actually doing direct supplementation with these electrolytes, with people coming off keto diets or low carb diets or fasting. 'cause some of the major symptoms that I typically see is muscle cramping, chronic thirst and dehydration symptoms.

And correcting carbohydrate intake, fluid intake and electrolytes altogether helps to minimize that. And then within a few weeks or so, once that's dialed in the same cramping in and the same dehydration that people experience on these diets can be quite very easily fixed. And again, I think a large portion of this is due to that lack of carbohydrate.

So the general strategy here of let me just throw electrolytes at this problem. And instead of saying, Hey let me eat some carbs, I think fundamentally is flawed. But I that the whole picture for me is that it's a little bit outta context. I agree with the general premise. And then for people who are in low carb, I listed some of the strategies that I typically employ to reverse some of those symptoms besides taking expensive flavored salt.

Theresa Piela: All right, Jay, so what have you noticed with people coming off of this or using it or not using it? Maybe needing some other approaches to rehydration? 

Jay Feldman: Yeah, no, I would echo the same thing. So many people who I see coming from low carb are using things like elementary. And as Mike was saying, there is some validity to that because you do lose a lot of sodium on low carb and, circle back to that.

But that's one situation. And then others, athletes, and especially if you're a low carb athlete, which you know,  is one, is a great way to induce a lot of stress physiologically. But if that's you and you're sweating a lot and you're losing a lot of electrolytes, then yeah you might need a supplement to help there.

Now you, that still doesn't mean you need element. Say it as elements now and stuff, element T you can, if you have a good, if you just have a good quality salt, you'll get about the same amount of sodium and magnesium in there. And of course, potassium, you can get pretty easily from the diet in, of course, magnesium as well, although it's a lot harder on a low carb diet.

But or you can just, get salt tablets. You could get a little bit of potassium or magnesium in addition if you needed. But yeah, when we get out of that low carb state and start to actually hold onto salt a bit better and have better mineral balance, 'cause not only do you lose more salt, but you also tend to lose more magnesium on a low carb diet, especially in a hypothyroid state, which those two things tend to go hand in hand.

Yeah, I think generally I agree with the premise that for the vast majority of the population, there's no need to be using element for the small portion of people [00:42:00] who for the portion of people who are low carb and maybe low carb athletes, sure you could use it again. I prefer to avoid the stevia though that's in there.

That's something we talked about in the Energy Balance Podcast with potential endocrine disrupting effects and some other potential negative effects. But in mind, as you were saying, Theresa the flavor and sweetness of something like juice is a much better option for people who are consuming carbohydrates.

And of course you get the built in magnesium, the potassium, and other vitamins and minerals there as well. So that's always my suggestion. And I think for people who are, who have transitioned away from low carb and are on more of a bioenergetic approach, the need for extra electrolytes I think is actually way overblown.

It's something I see a lot. It's like this idea that you should never be able to you should never be drinking plain liquid, like plain water or something without added electrolytes. And the reality is we should be getting those from our food naturally. We should be getting a lot of potassium from our food.

We should be getting a lot of magnesium from our food. And of course, most people are using adequate amounts of salt. Since we know that's not actually concerning, it's actually really important for us physiologically. So when that's the case. We shouldn't need to be constantly adding some sort of a supplement to our liquid.

It's okay to have plain water, especially Theresa, you mentioned being at high altitude and I've definitely noticed the same thing living at high altitude, that I need to drink a lot more water as opposed to when I'm at seed level. And then of course, on top of that, if we're, if someone's more active, sweating more, you're going to drink, you're going to need to drink more liquid.

And that can be juice, it can be milk, both of which are really great for hydration, have a lot of the electrolytes that we need. But it can also be plain water like the that's allowed as well, as long as we're in a good electrolyte balance. So that's my broad thoughts here. I did wanna touch on something really briefly, which is, so we mentioned that Rob Wolf, this is his company and one of his claims around it and why low carb people need more salt is that insulin drives aldosterone production.

And that leads to sodium retention. So when you're having carbs, or especially if you're insulin resistant, you have a lot of aldosterone and that leads to sodium retention. And then if you take out the carbs, you're losing sodium. But I just wanted to maybe a quick quip  here and maybe we can circle back to it at some point in the future and talk about his specific content on that.

But the evidence suggests the opposite, that insulin in and of itself does not lead to any increase in aldosterone. And in fact, you have the opposite situation, which is when you have adequate carbohydrates, you calm the stress system. And as you mentioned, Mike, the RA system, which is the basically stress system that regulates our electrolytes and hydration is a part of the sympathetic nervous system.

It, there's a lot of overlap there. And so if we're in a general state of stress, we actually tend to have an increase in aldosterone and having carbohydrates and a bit of insulin actually does the opposite. It actually reduces it. But like many things when it comes to carbs and insulin, there's a conflation where someone says, in insulin resistance you have high insulin and you have these issues and must be the insulin.

So in insulin resistance increased aldosterone. So insulin causes an increase in aldosterone, but that is very much a correlation to Z Google causation situation. 

Mike Fave: Yeah, I think if just in general, like looking at all the stress pathways altogether, like with this whole type of dynamic, the, basically what you're seeing with the keto set up in the beginning is the loss of sodium due to the lack of carbohydrate, and then the lack of insulin signaling altogether leads to an upregulation of aldosterone, which then leads to a, or the RA system, which aldosterone is directly involved in.

The RA system, then leads to a wasting of potassium. So you're absorbing your sodium while and wet and magnesium while wasting potassium and magnesium. And if again, like the other thing that's important that you mentioned with this is if you don't, if the, if thyroid function takes a hit on low carb, not TSH values, T three values, if they drop when you're on low carb and it reverse T three starts to bump up, then you can adjust intracellular a TP levels, which help you to retain magnesium.

So in the studies on low carb diets, you all see a loss of magnesium as well. So you have a circumstance where there's multiple ways by which the low carb diets, especially if they're not set up well, can actually drive electrolyte loss and across the board. 'cause another thing is in low carb diets.

Depending on how much dairy product you have, you're gonna have an imbalance, calcium, the phosphorus ratio, which then will drive PTH and PTH directly integrates with the RA system as well. So you're now, you're having a circumstance where calcium balance and phosphorus balances off, magnesium balances off and sodium to potassium balances off through upregulation in the RA system, up regulations in PTH and in alterations in thyroid hormone signaling.

So it's, it is all centers just on whether you have carbs or not, which is a huge it just goes to show despite what Dr. Chaffe wants us to believe about ketosis in all the organisms of the world. But carbohydrate is an essential component of managing electrolyte balance. And again, like I've seen this with clients.

I can't tell you how many clients you know what, I actually don't pee as much anymore, and I actually don't I don't have to take as much electrolytes and I'm way more hydrated. And that's one of the first things that happens when you appropriately add carbohydrates in from a low carb, carnivore, keto diet.

And then shift even to,  to the bioenergetic perspective because you see, okay, I'm not, I don't have to pee as much. I'm not as dehydrated. I don't have to drink as much water. Things are going better overall on that front. And so I, I see that pretty much time and time again. And I think my hypothesis, at least when looking at this studies engaging where people are going on is through the, all the, these this synergism of these mechanisms.

Once you bring cars on board, plus you also have the carbohydrates help. To store glycogen, which the glycogen also brings water into the muscle tissue, into the different areas where the glycogen is stored like liver in places like this. So there's that component as well. So I think all of these things together are just, goes to show how important carbohydrates are for regulating multiple functions across the board and then as well as having like adequate electrolytes.

And again, when you're coming off carb, when you're coming off low carb, I think using electrolytes or making sure you're hitting these particular targets with diet or supplementation together can be important. Once the diet shifted after a while that you'll probably hit most of your targets just from that alone.

Like for me, I'm able to hit the vast majority of my targets. From diet  alone, particularly the sodium potassium. And I do use calcium 'cause I don't tolerate dairy. That's a different story. But these I think you could do it with the diet as you mentioned it. I think that those things are that can be easily achieved.

Again, it's just a keto diet's very difficult 'cause you eliminate the vast majority of sources that are gonna provide you your potassium intake is a big one. And then also potentially calcium intake. 

Jay Feldman: And calcium. I want to just wanna to highlight this real quick. Calcium is an electrolyte. We need it for proper hydration.

And as you were touching on Mike, a lack of calcium can raise blood pressure like that alone can cause hypertension and can also, of course raise parathyroid hormone, but also can contribute to an increasing aldosterone as well. So that's, that should be right here in that conversation as well with sodium, potassium, and magnesium.

And of course having carbs and lowering stress, which is really the crux. 

Theresa Piela: I think that's a big piece of it too. When I speak to people that feel addicted to it or feel like they can't live without their element, what they're not realizing is that their body is accurately and appropriately  craving sweetness, but craving carbohydrate.

But they're getting that stevia, which I think has a confusing effect on the body. It's it almost tricks the body into thinking it's getting a surge of carbohydrates when it's, I, some people argue there's melted extra. I was getting conflicting claims on that. I don't know if you two have looked into that, but some people say there is sugar in the element.

Other people say, Nope, it's good, it's keto friendly. But I think that's a big piece where people need to think about, okay, your body's craving sweetness, craving, asking for it, and continuing to deny that might be causing the problems and keeping you in this loop where it continues to taste really good, but your body isn't getting the fuel source it needs.

Jay Feldman: Yeah. And that's a pretty funny one with the maltodextrin, right? It's like there might be a couple hundred milligrams of carbohydrate in my, oh no, in my element. And that's gonna, that is so concerning, let alone, as you said, like this addictive quality with the stevia for sure. And obviously those things being an indicator  that your body's actually deprived of one of its major nutrients and going through a lot of stress to produce it itself, and that's carbohydrates.

So yeah I think that's a great point as well, Theresa. 

Mike Fave: And I think it's, the other thing I'd say is interesting here is that it's known that just the taste of sweetness, lower stress responses. So even if you have something sweet and then you spit it back, you spit it out, you can still lower the stress response.

So I wouldn't be surprised if you have a bunch of people who are on low carb diets and it's oh, I actually have something that's sweet. And then it's and then they're like, want to have it all the time now because they can't have it anywhere else. So it's oh yeah, it's doesn't have any carbs.

So like it's still staying keto. And that's the same, that's another problem that you see cropping up with keto. Now a lot of keto influencers discussing is yeah, like when you do keto, you shouldn't do all the keto treats because like people are on this diet and they're like, those keto brownies, man, those keto cookies, the these special keto chocolates.

So it's like there's, you clearly see the same desire for carbohydrate and it's just  trying, they're trying to manage it with these other ways because the, it, because this fundamental idea that carbohydrates are driving all of these disease processes because of insulin. It's insulin, it's all insulin.

And then it's so we have all these workarounds, right? We gotta take this salt supplement and then you gotta use like this sweetened stuff that doesn't have sugar. Just avoid, just to avoid carbohydrate to maintain this state. Yet it's the default state of all organisms on the planet.

Like I know that's an exaggerated statement. He didn't exactly say that, but it's like. It's just a weird dynamic to, to fall into, to have this, and if you have, if you have one coke, if you have one glass of orange juice, you'll be absolutely knocked out of ketosis. You'll lose all the metabolic benefits.

And it's but it's the default state. It's the state that, that all organisms are supposed to be in. It's like such a contradictory thing to have to create all these solutions around this one strategy. And then the smallest things will knock it out, is the concern, but  it's the state that we all should be in.

And that has that has all these benefits and things. So it's just a, it's like a weird contradiction inside the paradigm. Like it's a, I just, it's I've been in that state, so I get it. I remember when we were like, Jay, you and I were like doing our cyclical keto, intermittent fasting stuff and like really trying to keep the carbon intake low and worrying about like how much carbs we're in carrots and stuff like this.

So I get it, but it's like now when you come into from this perspective, it just seems weird. It just seems like pulling out all the stops to make this thing work and then backwardly rationalizing why we need to do all this stuff. 

Jay Feldman: Yeah, definitely. And you were talking about orange juice and coke, but I think people are more concerned about like blueberries and as you said, how much sugar is in the carrots or in the broccoli.

Those are some high carb foods right there, which obviously won't go down that tangent, but it made me think, you mentioned the sweetness thing as well, and allulose is a huge one right now that everyone is trying to use to get their sweet fill in. Obviously there's a reason and we have that sweet taste and it's not just to make us fat, but we could come back to that in the future.

We'll have to pull some content on that and discuss it.

Theresa Piela: Alright, moving on.

Jay Feldman: To our question of the day. 

Theresa Piela: Yeah. 

Jay Feldman: Yeah. And I should mention two, 'cause this is the first time we're doing a q and a, so I forgot to mention this in the beginning, but we decided to change up the way we're segmenting the podcast. So we've got our, around the internet section where we'll be commenting on, different clips and media and what's circulating.

And then we'll be doing Q and as well. For any listeners that you know if you guys have questions and I'm, I know many of you do send those in feel free to comment on the YouTube videos or send those in to jayfeldmanwellness.com 

and we'll continue answering your guys' questions and if you guys have recommendations for any other, segments or type of content you guys would like to see, let us know about that as well.

Theresa Piela: Alright. Guy is really enjoying the email course and the podcast as well. He has a question about vitamin D used to eat a hundred grams of smoked salmon every day, which was a big part of his diet and his main source  of vitamin D along with eggs. He then removed Pufa from his diet and he's struggling to find another good source of vitamin D.

Seems like vitamin D is mainly in fish, but the fish with lower pufa content has much less Vitamin D, which means he'd need larger servings raising his concerns about mercury intake. Do you have any advice on meeting daily vitamin D requirements without PUFAs, aside from eating 13 eggs a day, I think you'd actually need a lot more eggs than 13, unless they're like the strong sister's eggs, but yeah.

What advice do you have for Guy? 

Jay Feldman: Go for it, Mike. 

Mike Fave: I think the two biggest source the number one most obvious source of vitamin D is gonna be sun exposure. So I don't know what latitude he lives at, but I would, you could get some sun exposure. If not, I think like a, I'm a fan of vitamin D supplementation.

I don't know where you guys stand. Jay, I know where you stand on that, Teresa. I don't know. You're on board with it too, but 

Theresa Piela: I am. Yeah. As someone that notices  a huge difference in the winter and feeling like my mood can be stabilized and I mean my digestion, my sleep, so many factors that tie to getting enough vitamin D.

Yeah, I like the K 2D three in combination. And I think, keeping in mind too that magnesium plays a role there. We don't wanna just take a large, 50,000 units of vitamin D three and expect things to stay in balance. That's why. Similar to Mike, I think light exposure makes the most sense.

It gives the body a chance to convert it and at a rate that isn't going to cause other imbalances. But I know that can be tricky. And then some people just don't like being in the sun. Like I have a few sensitive clients that they get pretty bad histamine reactions, even being in the sun for five, 10 minutes, they turn bright red, they get itchy.

So I think in that case, they're really high quality. K2 supplement with magnesium would be a great option. But yeah, not, we don't have to just rely on food. And I know  that's a little bit controversial. Some people are a little bit antis supplement these days, and I think I maybe similar to both of you, I fall in the middle.

I wouldn't wanna completely rely on supplements, especially thinking about some of the flow agents and things that are in there that might cause some problems, especially some gut irritation and people don't really realize what's leading to what. Our food supply might not be as nutrient dense as it needs to be.

Our light exposure might not be as ideal. We might not have a job that allows us to sun at noon for 20 minutes. So yeah, supplements can be game changing. But Jay, what are you thinking? 

Jay Feldman: Yeah, I think so. And as you guys are saying, an important point here when it comes to vitamin D is. Most of the time food is not going to be our primary source of vitamin D.

We produce it, our skin, from our skin exposure to the sun. It leads to our own endogenous production, meaning our own bodies produce vitamin D and that's typically how we would get all of the vitamin D that we need. So it's not really something I would ever be looking at getting from food, especially because the food sources would typically come with a lot of pufa and it would just be crazy to try to get it all from food.

And I'm pretty sure the RDA for vitamin D is very low anyway. It probably wouldn't even get you into an optimal range, but you're right that there's a lot of circumstances that can make it tough to get enough vitamin D from the sun. So I think in those scenarios, normally the things I recommend, there's two sides.

So one is vitamin D supplementation, and when we do that, and really all the time, but especially if we're supplementing with vitamin D, we wanna keep an eye on our calcium intake, our magnesium intake, and our vitamin K two intake. All those will help to keep parathyroid hormone down so we don't convert.

Vitamin D down to the 1 25 dye hydroxy vitamin D, which we generally wanna avoid excess conversion in that direction, causes the leaching of calcium from our bones and number of other concerning effects. So I would say all those co-factors are important. And then the other one that I often recommend to clients when they're in a place where it's hard for them to get sun exposure, especially for maybe half the year, if they've got, a [00:58:00] typical winter is the vitamin D lamps, the UVB lamps like a spurty lamp, which can be a great option, just takes a few minutes every day or even every other day that can get you all the vitamin D that you need.

So those are the two recommendations I normally go with. And yeah, I wouldn't be worried about getting vitamin D from the diet. And that also brings me to a couple other things that I get asked about often about. When someone's on a bioenergetic diet, they're having trouble getting a couple of other nutrients from their food.

And I think they're very similar in that we don't actually need to get them from our food. One of those is vitamin E and the reason for that is when we're on a low poof of diet, our need for vitamin E is dramatically decreased because when we're eating a lot of pofa depletes, vitamin E causes a lot of oxidative stress and so we need a lot more.

Most low pofa foods in, in nature tend to be lower in vitamin E 'cause they don't need that protection, right? Saturated and monounsaturated fats are very stable. So that's one that I wouldn't be concerned about in the diet, but if we had a history of eating a lot of pofa, we might want to bring some extra supplementary vitamin D in to help or vitamin E in, excuse me, to help protect against that pufa that we're clearing out.

So vitamin E can be a great supplement, but I wouldn't be concerned about getting it in the diet. Of course you will get it in small amounts in olive oil and things like that, but normally not enough to really get optimal amounts. But optimal amounts for us, for someone on a low pufa diet are much, much lower.

And then vitamin K is the other one here where vitamin K is typically produced by the bacteria in our gut, and then we absorb it. So that's another one where I wouldn't be concerned about not getting enough vitamin K because you're not eating as much of the leafy greens and things like that. If you're seeing that on your chronometer, there's a lack of vitamin K, or you're missing that, it doesn't mean you necessarily need to supplement or that you need to change your diet, but rather that's one that we're going to be producing endogenously. You just aren't going to see that in your diet. 

Mike Fave: Yeah. One thing I wanna point out with vitamin D supplementation is I think it's important to actually test your levels instead of just randomly taking vitamin D. And I see this pretty randomly in the bioenergetic sphere. It's oh, I'm just gonna take 50,000 IUs a day.

I know that's like in other areas people have mentioned that, but. Again, like I, I typically recommend shooting between 50 to 75 nanograms per milliliter of 25 OHD in the blood. I don't like people to get too high, too close to a hundred. Now do I think it's gonna massively cause problems for most people if they're also using magnesium, calcium, and K two?

No, but I think like you do see a significant benefit once you get over the 50 mark, and I think because there is some degree of concern going over the a hundred mark, I don't think there it's necessary to go there to see the benefits, at least from what I've seen in the research. So I recommend if you want to gain your vitamin D status, typically 5,000 IUs per day over a period of time will help you ramp up.

Now you have metabolic dysfunction or you have a little extra body fat. It may take a little bit more. I've seen that with clients where they need a little bit more to, to bump up. That could be due to shifts in conversion or storage in fat tissue. But typically on average, 5,000 IUs tends to bring people's levels up in my experience.

And then people can maintain around one or 2000 IUs per day. At least from what I've seen with like running blood tests on hundreds of clients and seeing what, how much it takes to bring them into their range. And the other thing I think that's important that you touched on Jay, is that when you're looking at your vitamin D status, you should also be looking at parathyroid hormone.

So you should be testing parathyroid hormone together with D three and making sure that PTH is less than 30 picograms per milliliter. These are really important because they have antagonistic functions together. Another thing I wanted to touch on here with K two and vitamin E is I think that in general, I think the supplementation, I wanna mirror what you said Jay, is really important.

If you're coming from a standard American diet or you had a high intake of polyunsaturated fats and to do that for i, the, it's questionable how long it actually takes to completely change your tissue concentration of PUFAs. There's been talk of four years. I think it could happen faster if you do certain things.

But at the same time, I'd still recommend vitamin E supplementation. I usually do for quite some time to help minimize that. So that, that's a big one. Then vitamin K is another one that I think people are, A lot of people I've talked with are concerned that oh one milligram is so many times to DRI or if I take too much, is it gonna cause me to clot or something like  this?

This specifically vitamin K two, unless you're on something like warfarin, which is a blood thinner, that antagonizes vitamin K, if you're using yeah, that antagonizes Vitamin K production of clotting proteins. If you're using vitamin K two and you're not chewing anything like that, it should be okay.

And if you have any type of heart disease or vascular calcification or issues like this, or problems with bone mass, then it, the vitamin K actually becomes exceptionally important as even in higher dosages than the one milligram per day. So I think those things are really important to bring on board.

And then the last one with the vitamin with calcium, a lot of people are concerned. That calcium is something that's going to cause vascular calcification. If you have too much calcium in your diet, or you take too if you take calcium supplements. I think something that I want to talk about here is just that if you don't have calcium in your diet, I.

You're going to raise your parathyroid hormone typically unless your vitamin D magnesium, everything are quite high. Typically you'll see a bumps parathyroid hormone and the parathyroid hormone is just gonna pull it from your bones and you could still get a spike serum [01:03:00] calcium from pure parathyroid hormone being elevated.

So adequate calcium intake I think is exceptionally important. Rounding it all together from what both of you guys said, that ideally vitamin D three, K two, calcium, magnesium should ideally would all be taken together. And then also vitamin A and vitamin E are important. Now you may not have to supplement vitamin A, that's something you could get from some of the food sources, dairy, eggs, organ meat, stuff like this.

But those are all important to get to, to have together 'cause they work together in multiple fashions and they protect against excesses from any one of them. So vi excess vitamin D if you have vitamin A present is the toxicity is drastically decreased. Vice versa. Where excess vitamin A is, you can protect yourself against with using vitamin D.

And vitamin E. So I think and vitamin K. So I think you want to combine all of them together. I wouldn't be afraid of supplementing some of these things we talked about, and I would definitively follow up on parathyroid hormone and vitamin D levels to see where you're at. It's very difficult to test vitamin A and vitamin E.

They're not really, you're not really gonna get good tests from a blood [01:04:00] perspective. So typically not looking at those. So that for me, I, this is the way I would go with this. And for most people I'm working with, we're using vitamin D supplements. Unless they're like I think it's pretty rare that you find somebody who either has the time or the location to actually go get adequate sunlight on a consistent basis, particularly in the winters.

So I think most people are having a hard time with that. And vitamin D supplementation's a really easy way to actually correct that and end use in combination with the other components. I think the downsides start to fall off a cliff. If it's used appropriately and if you're having weird symptoms, 'cause some people do get it from vitamin D supplements, I would look to check on your calcium magnesium K two stuff like this and see if some of those things are off.

'cause that can cause weird reactions or responses to vitamin D supplementation. I think those, that, those are really important things to all have together. I can't say that enough 'cause I get this question over and over again. I took vitamin D and I don't feel that good. It's what's your calcium magnesium K two intake and stuff like this?

And they're like  I don't know. And it's like, all right, let's get 400 milligrams of mag. Let's get that from food and supplements maybe a little bit more. Let's make sure K is at one milligram per day. Let's at least hit one gram of calcium and then let's slow. We can bump up your vitamin D to get to that appropriate range and somebody's too high dose.

And it's okay, let's, let's take it a little bit easy here on the 50,000 IU a day deal. 

Jay Feldman: Yeah. Two things I want to chime in with real quick. One is we talked about calcium and the relationship with parathyroid hormone, calcium to phosphorus ratio, and the calcium paradox in episode one 12 of the Energy Balance Podcast.

For anyone who wants to dig into that in a little bit more detail and dig into some of the studies as well that we discussed. But then one other thing I wanted to comment on is, if possible I would, I would recommend Sunlight as the top option, and then I would recommend the UVB lamps. Like the spurty lamp is the second option that I would say is better than a Vitamin D supplement.

It can be cost prohibitive, so of course if that's an issue for somebody, then I think it's fine to go with vitamin D supplementation as a third option.  But there are other benefits of sunlight and of UVB, aside from just vitamin D production. There's increases in dopamine, there's increases in other steroid hormone production.

And so I would prefer, and if someone's, living in, in a place where they're gonna have a winter every single year for decades, I think it's worth the investment to go with one of those lamps. So that's something else I might consider, but if that's out of the question, then I do think a Vitamin D supplement is a good idea if we're considering all those other factors.

Theresa Piela: I think pairing the UVB lamp with a red light could be really helpful too. This was something I was experimenting with last winter. I was just using a UVB light two to three times a week, and I did notice significant photo aging, but when I started to do red light in the morning and actually after the UVB light not so significant.

There's, you still see some UV damage and, maybe it's my history of nut-based vegan snacks back in my darkest days. But just something to be aware of. And like Mike was mentioning, if your body is still holding onto a bunch of PUFA, you might be more likely to burn. Even on, in a, on a day that you'd be producing beautiful amounts of vitamin D.

So something to pay attention to. You don't wanna get to the point where you're overly pink or rosy because at that point I think the damage has been done. So it's finding your sweet spot too. And, some people don't mind the photo aging. I think I, I just reached the age where I'm noticing it significantly and my vanity is stepping in.

But it's good to be aware too, that there are some costs if you overdo it from the UVB light just in isolation. It is, it's highly radi. It's, yeah, it's a lot of radiation for the body to process. And with the protection of red light, it can help balance out some of those effects. 

Jay Feldman: Yeah. And of course, with sunlight we would get the red light and infrared light too.

So I think it's a great combination. It's interesting you mentioned that. I haven't heard anybody mention that using the birdie, but 

Theresa Piela: yeah, I noticed. Pretty deep forehead wrinkles. And yeah, I think this [01:08:00] some aging is absolutely natural, but I noticed a direct correlation with using it in the winter.

I wasn't getting sunlight outside as much and definitely wasn't laying out in the sun and it was mostly on my face where I was shining the light. Yeah, just to be aware 

Mike Fave: if you are experiencing something like that, I think moderating time as you alluded to Theresa, is important.

And then also the, basically the UV light is, can create oxidative stress. So the question is there something that is making you susceptible to oxidative stress? Not used specifically, but somebody in general who would be dealing with this. And so in that circumstances, is what's going on.

That's where vitamin E, vitamin C supplementation adequate plant polyphenol compounds can be important. General mineral status can be important there. Copper, zinc, even iron but not iron overload would be actually problematic. So these things can help bolster antioxidant status. And then yeah, you could, the red light and infrared light.

I think actually a large portion of sunlight is the infrared light, that heat that we feel. And that has wide ranging positive effects on the  cells and tissues and on mitochondrial function, which I think combining them probably be a good strategy to minimize ROS production. 'cause one of the major sources of r os production is the mitochondria in the body.

If things aren't running effectively and the UV light, while it does oxidize cholesterol to form vitamin D production high exposure can have a negative impact to some extent on mitochondrial function and drive R os. So the, the combination I think is a great idea. So yeah, and you have three options, right?

Sunlight, the UV lamp plus red light, infrared light, and then you have vitamin D supplementation and, pick your. Pick which one's gonna work best for your context and then run with it from there. And then, make sure you're pairing it with the other components. And I think a big portion here to, to mirror both of you guys is that if you're not tolerating a Vitamin D supplement, I have found that people do tolerate the lamps and sunlight better.

So they may not feel as terrible if they, like first starting vitamin D, they're coming out of a weird low carb background deal and things are all off like the vitamin D subs makes them super sleepy or it changes their nails or something like this because I've seen that. Then using the sunlight or the lamps can actually be, can be helpful in that circumstance.

So again, like it's gonna be very con contextual to the person on what option's gonna work best. Because again, if you're somebody who has MCAS mast cell activation stuff going on, then you're like, yeah, the sunlight can really. Really bother them. But once they're, you clear up what's going on in the microbiome and you replete some of the micronutrient status and the MCA stuff is improved, then they may be able to tolerate sunlight.

I've had quite a few clients who couldn't tan and then all of a sudden we fix what's going on in the gut and we replete some of the micros and then all of a sudden they don't have a problem with sunlight anymore. So there could be a, those it, it may change over time as well. I think these are important to keep in mind.

Theresa Piela: I was wondering if you two have looked into applying topical cholesterol, like from lanolin or tallow and then exposing the body to UVB light, is that something you've played around with or ever recommend? 

Mike Fave: I actually don't have experience with it, so I haven't done it. I don't know. I have to look into it. I don't wanna say something because I...

Theresa Piela: I'm just curious. Yeah. I was thinking if to maximize the vitamin D production on the skin, and then I guess the theory is it's absorbed over, four to six hours after being exposed to light. But it seems to make sense to me, especially for people that are aging or, approaching the, their elderly years.

Maybe they have less cholesterol in their skin, so their conversion might be lower, but just something I was thinking about. 

Jay Feldman: Yeah. And the cholesterol on its own can have its own benefits for the skin and then Yeah, to add on increased vitamin D production. Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting idea.

Mike Fave: Yeah. I wonder too, if you like, have these the exposure to the UV light. And then afterwards, once you've already oxidized the cholesterol so that you can form the vitamin D, then you use some type of like antioxidant compound on the skin topically, like vitamin E and a cocoa butter or something like this or and then that can maybe minimize some of the effects that you're experiencing if the UV light is creating some photo damage 

Theresa Piela: things to play around with.

Jay Feldman: Definitely. Theresa, by the way, just real quick, were you, which product were you using for the UVB lamp? 

Theresa Piela: This was it was like a knockoff spurty lamp. I won't share the brand online. But yeah, it was a just like a UA pure UVB bulb that I would shine at my face not, and learned it was not the best idea.

And sometimes I wonder if it wasn't actually purely UVB if there was some other type of wavelength I was getting. 

Jay Feldman: Alright guys we'll we'll wrap up this episode there, Theresa. Do you wanna share what the listeners were they can find you. 

Theresa Piela: Yeah, I'm very active on Instagram at Living Roots Wellness, also on tapping with tea.

That's my main community for more of this brain rewiring and nervous system work. You can use it on as an app on your phone or also just join us on the community forum on the website. And yeah, that's a great place to contact me directly if there are things coming up or if you're interested in more learning, more of the brain side of things, and maybe you feel confident in your nutrition, but want more help with the other stuff yep.

Jay Feldman: Awesome. All right, Mike. 

Mike Fave: Yep. You can find me at Mike fave on YouTube and you can also find me at my website, mike fave.com. And of course you can find me here on Bioenergetic View and also on Energy Balance Podcast. What about you, Jay?

Jay Feldman: Alright. My website is jay feldman wellness.com and of course can find me here as well as Energy Balance Podcast.

Thanks For joining us Theresa it was an awesome first episode. We're happy to have you and we'll see you guys on the next one.