Welcome to episode 14 of the Energy Balance Podcast. I'm Jay Feldman and joining me again today is my good friend, Mike Fave. Today's episode is a continuation of our last Q &A episode and today we'll be talking about how we can listen to our bodies and use our own experience to inform our experimentation and how we can then translate these concepts into improving our health. And then this topic turned into a discussion or conversation about the role of different belief systems and our identity in our health. And this wasn't really planned, it kind of came out organically and it was mostly us just kind of sorting through these ideas in a conversation. So I hope you guys enjoy listening in on that conversation. You'll have to let me know in the comments. If you do have any questions that you'd like us to answer on future Q &A episodes, you can send an email over to jay at jayfeldmanwellness.com.

That's Jay at Jay Feldman wellness.com to check out the show notes for today's episode head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast where I'll be linking to any of the articles or studies or anything else that we referenced throughout today's episode. And as we'll be talking about throughout today's episode, it's really important to take your health into your own hands and to become your own authority when it comes to our health and our experimentation. But of course, in a lot of ways that can be easier said than done takes a lot of time and effort and research and it can be helpful to have some extra guidance. So if you are looking to have some extra guidance throughout your own experimentation, head over to jfeldenandmalness.com slash call and sign up for a free call and I'd be happy to offer some guidance for you and help you throughout your health journey. And with that, let's get started.

Natalie says, is there a way I can learn to read my own body better to know when I need more of certain foods like carbs throughout the day? Is this possible?

And I think this ties in directly with where we're going here. And I think it's important to get at this point that at least in my experience, you need to develop a base of reference experiences and to be able to develop a framework on what's going on with your body and, and what's like, why you feel a certain way and what, and figure out like how different foods affect you and this and that, and have sort of like repeatable experiences. I think a lot of people don't realize that justice kids have to grow into their coordination abilities in order to run or to throw or to do anything like that. You know, when you're young, you're a little bit uncoordinated and things like that. You also have to grow into your ability to perceive and be aware of what's going on with you and to sense different things that are going on with you. like, it's almost like an exploration in and of itself to be able to understand these things. part of practice. Yeah, it definitely takes practice and it takes being aware consistently. It takes being, it takes being able to sit there and and try and figure out what a relationship between something is rather than just writing it off. mean, and I see a lot of people do this. I didn't sleep well last night. It was because of, I don't know, like this or that, very something very random. Or I woke up in my shoulder or my back is in pain. It's like I must have slept wrong. And, know, it's the people write a lot of things off rather than trying to see. Well, every time I eat starch, this particular starch, my sleep doesn't go very well. It's more like, I just didn't sleep well. I just didn't sleep good last night. It must've been a full moon. They must've been some, and I'm not saying that though a lot of these factors can't take place, but I think that some like thought and some analysis and what's going on is helpful. And eventually you start to figure things out. And I think for a lot of people to regain the health that they want, it becomes important to be able to number one, separate yourself objectively from what's going on. So when you sit there and you say.

You know, I'm low carb, but I really like, I'm really craving carbs and I really want that glass of orange juice. And then you sit there and you're like, okay, I'm going to drink orange juice for two weeks and I'm going to see what happens. I'm going to see how I feel and be able to sit there and be objective about it and not be attached to, if I drink orange juice, it's going to raise my insulin and I'm going to get cancer and diabetes and I'm going to get fat and da da da. It's like, well, why don't you try it for two weeks? Then you'll see. And then the other thing you could do is when you have these questions, go into the research and look at the direct research of things. I do that personally for certain things if I want to understand something. And I go directly to the source. And it says, in studies, if I gave a bunch of these kids or diabetics orange juice, did they become more diabetic? No, they didn't. Okay, let's see, maybe we'll try. Maybe we'll see what's going on. And then I think that it's important. And I think for a lot of people, when they see somebody else doing it and it didn't kill them.

Jay
Or didn't make them fat or didn't make them diabetic or they didn't get all these random sort of ideas that they didn't get candida, candida overgrowth because they drank orange juice when they see somebody else doing it. I think that that helps people and allows them to be like, okay, because I know for you and I, there's a lot of times where when we were doing low carb stuff, I would be on the weekend and I'd be like, bro, I need to eat something like I'm and then I would just be like, I'm, I'm gonna do whatever I'm eating. I don't care. I'm not low carb today.

And then a lot of, so like, I think it's important to be able to be aware of what's going on, see how different things affect you, and like, look for the relationships. You're not gonna be right every time. There's a lot of times where I ascribe something, some sort of symptom to something and it wasn't that symptom, but then eventually I figured it out. And so it takes time. You need to have reference experiences and you need to sit there and you need to be aware of what's going on with your body. And before I end, what I'm gonna say, I think it's important for people to take and just as specifically in response to, to Natalie's question in a way to practice knowing what's going on with your body, I think is, especially when you first start being able to lay down just for 10 minutes without any sort of distraction of your phone or computer or anything like that, no music and just take your awareness and like, filter it through your body, see if you can move your attention, your awareness, your focus, whatever you want to call it, to different areas of your body, your feet, your legs, your stomach, wherever it is, and sort of take this, a lot of people I think have a focus stuck up in their head, their focus is up in their head and their thoughts and their mind, but to be able to move that focus and say, okay, I'm just gonna feel my arm, I'm just gonna feel my hands, I'm just gonna feel my stomach.

And learn how to get in touch with those different things because you'll realize that once you move out of constantly being stuck in your trains of thought, that say you go and eat something afterwards, you get a little stuffy and whatnot, and you start to feel your stomach like, ooh, what I just ate didn't feel very good. I don't know. then that's how you start to put the pictures together. But I think a lot of it comes directly from that direct experience.

Jay
And the only way to get better at recognizing your direct experience is to directly experience yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's it's true. it's like we've we have obviously made. I want to say mistakes like we have experimented with all these things and it's there's nothing wrong with trying a ketogenic diet or a low carb diet. Like there's nothing wrong with that sort of experimentation. At the very least, it's just important to do it with like with as little dogma and closed mindedness as possible.

Because there is, you know, when we were doing it, we did buy into the idea that the car cravings were just temporary, you know, and that that was a, you know, a sign of us switching into ketosis. And we don't agree. Like, I mean, that is somewhat true. It doesn't make it ideal. And so there's it's a very tough balance to strike, right? How are you supposed to know if like what what you're feeling is due to?

For example, like we've talked about having cravings for donuts or cookies or cupcakes. You know, it's not like you can always listen to those cravings because if you did that probably wouldn't lead you down a very good road either. Like I don't think that those things are really synonymous with health, at least in any significant amount. So, you know, if you were to then recognize, when I eat enough fruit or fruit juice or protein, let's say I don't have those cravings really anymore, well that's really helpful information, but even knowing to put those things together is difficult and it does require that practice of awareness and the practice of, as you were saying, just kind of examining your body, examining what you're doing and comparing those two things together. That's definitely part of it. And then the knowledge and research is part of it as well. You know, it's helpful to have a framework to build from too. And so it makes sense whether you know, when you're starting out that framework is going to be whatever you find that makes the most sense to you. And that might be low carb for some people, or it might be vegetarian for some people. But I do think that as long as, as long as you're staying open-minded and continuing to examine those beliefs, eventually it will take you closer and closer to what is best. Yeah. I just think it's important to do it with, with the experimentation experimentation in mind rather than an identity and not identify with the group on vegan.

Jay
It's not that identifying with a group of people is a problem because people want to be in groups together. People are looking for some sort of unifying element to bring them together because as far as I understand it, in my experience, a lot of us are communal. A lot of us want that relationship with people. mean, that's a lot of what brings joy to people's lives is connecting with other people. It's just... When you start, so it's not that having that community is a problem. It's when you identify with the concept of those things that it can become dangerous for you or dangerous for anyone, dangerous for me. So it's like, what are you connecting with the community on? And I think choosing to connect with people on the idea of I am this, I am vegetarian. think that things or keto or carnivore, whatever, not even to pick on one group.

I think that that can become dangerous for your health overall because of the identity associated with the group. think for as far as what works for you, it can't be necessarily a group identity because you're trying to figure out what works for you. So it has to be experimentation from your own awareness. And then having a community is another thing that I think is important, but I just think it's necessary that it shouldn't come from something where you need to figure out your individual sort of situation around it. The other thing that I think is important is what is helpful and what I think we lost a lot of to a large extent. It's not necessarily bad, but I think there's a lot of people don't have a foundation or a framework from which they come to things. And I think it goes to the saying, if you don't believe in any, if you don't believe in something, then you'll fall for anything.

And it's, when you don't have an idea or sort of like, like you realize that the framework around diet that you've been taught your whole life is all of a sudden a skew and it was industry based or this and that. Then you're just like, you don't have any footing. You don't know where to stand. You don't know where to go. And, and I see a lot of that, not only in the diet sphere now, but just in, like information in general on the internet, there's, there's so much information all over the place.

Jay
And there's a lot of false information out there and it's getting hard to root out what's reality and what's not reality. And it makes a lot of us be, we don't have any footing to stand on. We're sitting here and we're just like, well, there's valid arguments here. There's valid arguments there. And there's research for this and there's research for that. And because a lot of people are specialized in different areas, if you're not specialized in diet, you're specialized in business then how, and you don't have a background in understanding the terminology and the research or anything like that, how are you going to come to conclusions? And how are you going to read through the statistics or the results of the studies and say, oh, I'm going to do this or I'm going to, I'm going to do that. Or this study doesn't make any sense because of X, Y, Z or, whatever it is. There's like, a lot of us have just been sort of, and I think it's done. mean, personally, I think it's done on purpose, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of, uh, people just, they don't know which way to go.

And are just sort of looking for something. People want a foundation. They want some sort of framework. They want some sort of basis for which they can go off of. And I completely understand that because that's what I've personally been searching for is the basis. And I think with everything going on right now, it's difficult. The game isn't easy anymore to find that basis. It's really an investment. that's whether it's financial or health or relationship or any of these ideas or concepts or things like that. There's a lot of investment that needs to go into it in your own experience and trying to figure things out and to try and make sense. And I think for a lot of people, can't, relying on an authority or relying on some sort of guru is, you can't really do that anymore. I think that you really have to rely on yourself at this point in time. And I know it's harder, it's definitely the harder path.

But the fruits at the end generally, at least in my experience, will be worth it. you just, I don't think we can attach to some sort of guru and then put an identity with it and then just follow it blindly. I really think it comes down to going, building the reference experiences and trudging through the data and trudging through everything that's going on and trying to make sense of it. And it's getting harder because there's a lot of static noise and interference and threading that needle into to connect the dots. But I think that the more you search and the more you sort of try and think to your mind, well, what actually makes sense, the more you'll start to like pull something together and you start to get traction, you start to get footing. And I know for us and and this is why I think both of us have a hard time trying to come off as an authority or anything like that, because I don't think that it's necessarily helpful. I mean, does it sell? Of course it sells. Does it?

Does it make money? Yeah, for sure. But it also leaves people astray because the purpose and in the Pete's community and Ray Pete's fear and community and from all the different people in the community, it's kind of hard to get a footing because nobody wants to give an authoritative answer or most people don't want to give an authoritative answer because the answer behind the basis of what everyone's trying to do is to allow you to follow your own guidance. And then with us being here.

We're just trying to provide like a basic element of guidance, a basic understanding of framework that we have found makes sense to try and clear some of the BS out of the way and to give you some ideas to experiment with and try for yourself. And the keywords are experiment and try because if some things don't work, then it just doesn't work for you. And I have a lot of people that I talk to or that I help and things like that where they asked me about something or like, Hey, I'm not feeling good with this. Maybe if I just do it for another month, I'll feel good. And I'm like, no, if it's not working for you then just stop. it's not working for you, then try and figure out what's going on. And I'll help from my experience, but the plan is for you to develop your own guidance, for you to take on your individual purpose of figuring out what works for you through your life. And we're trying to help out by providing some sort of framework that we found have worked. And if it doesn't work for you, then that's fine. If some things don't work for you, that's fine.

If some things do work, then keep what works and throw out the rest and maybe come back to it another time. It's really up to you. that's the purpose here is to provide a non-authoritative perspective and to provide some basic footing. That's it. Yeah. Well, and the framework is not like it's not about the framework working or not working. The framework is not built upon here is the exact way that you're supposed to do these things. And if it's not working for you, then, This just isn't the right fit for you. Like the framework is built upon all these things that we've been talking about. It's built on this larger perspective and something not working for like a certain supplement or a certain food not working for you fits within that perspective. That's part of it. So, and as you were saying, it's a lot less sexy to say that and have this guided experimentation versus to say, I know the exact thing that's going to fix your problem. eat, you take this supplement at this time three hours later you eat this type of nutrition bar and then you have this meal and you're good. Every disease is gone. That's what we all want. We all want that sort of, something to grasp onto that is tangible and that we know that we have that certainty. Uncertainty is not comfortable. certainty is not reality. There is no certainty.

And that's part of that's part of the larger perspective and then talking about associating with groups. The aspects that I would think are not helpful to associate with are the divisive, authoritative, dogmatic aspects. So there's nothing wrong with saying that I eat a low carb diet. But when you say that anybody who does need a low carb diet is an idiot or a moron that like there's nothing helpful about that. Like that is that that would suggest that you identify as more valuable or better because of the way that you're eating and that inherently gets in the way of progress or experimentation or learning in any way. If you have that sort of belief, then anytime that you come across something that suggests that carbs might not be the demon, like toxic poison, then you're not going to be able to look at that with any sort of objectivity.

Very much self-directed and not relying on that sort of authority. that's, it's, it is the opposite of what we're taught. You know, and we've, we've talked about, about how that has been set up for us from school on, you know, where there is the right answer and the wrong answer and all the right answers are given to us by those authority figures. And, and very rarely is there a discussion about it. not to say that all schooling is, is terrible or anything like that. Like there are really great teachers and there are really great courses, but the general system is not built that way. So, yeah, the general system is antithetical to the process of learning. You're never going to be given four choices in life and you choose one choice and that's the right one. I mean, and that's, that's the process that you see now. It's like, you can be vegan, carnivore, low carb keto, vegetarian. It's like, well, which one are you? And it's like, are you Republican or are you Democrat? It's like, it's not about, there's not only two choices when you're, and at least in my experience, there's never just two choices or one choice or this and that. There's multiple possible paths that you could take. idea of only having one or two choices or even only five choices is purely a mental construct. mean, are some choices harder than others? Do some choices make less sense than others? Of course. Of course, there's no question about that. But when you start, there's always different paths and opportunities.

Going to be put in a point in life where it's like there's only Republican or there's Democrat and there's nothing else. Things aren't black and white like that. There's no four multiple choice answers. The other thing I think that's important too is when you're in school, and I think this one's funny is that when you're in school, when you help each other out in a test, it's called cheating. But in real life, when you guys are trying to do something together, it's called collaboration. So just the general setup and premise that we've all and the other thing that the general set of premise that we've all been brought up on is not doesn't really translate well to functioning with different areas in life, at least in my opinion. And then the other thing that I think that's that is also not helpful is that when you're in school, you're given a track to follow. It's like you go to middle school and then you go to high school and then you go to college and then you do this and it's like you follow these tracks and you go in these different directions.

And it's like, you want you to do this, you have arrived. And it's like, that's not really the reality. There's not, there's not a, you don't just follow the track. You become a doctor, you become a lawyer, you become a nurse, whatever it is. And then that's it. There's, there's, there's a lot more to that. If you're open to it. I mean, you can just do that. It's, it's definitely easier, but when the other areas of life and the other areas of your own personal life, there, you don't just get on the track, follow the track and it just goes that way. It's what diet you don't just follow these particular specific sets of rules always and then all of sudden you're perfect. mean, there's a lot, there is more nuance to those things and with diet, with relationships, with all those types of things, it's not that cut and dry. There's not just married or not married. There's not just vegan or carnivore.

Like there's more options to that. And when you start breaking out of these categories and these they're almost like forced choices where it's you have to choose between these two. It's like, no, you don't. You can't. You don't have to sit there and choose carnivore or vegan. You could be you could. OK, I eat me and I eat fruit. I'm a carnivore, a carnivorous vegan. There's it just becomes sort of ridiculous. And then the other thing I want to point out, too, is that. There it so you I think having an open mind is important, but I also think that there's periods of time where you have to, when you come to a decision on something that you really don't think makes any sense and you flush out that decision, you have to be able to be okay and say, I don't think that makes sense. I don't think that is right. There's nothing wrong with that as well. And I think it's important for people to be able to, because a lot of people I see in some of the Pete's fear and I see in general, try and be open to everything.

Trying to be open to all these ideas. And some of these ideas just don't make sense. at least for me, they just at least don't make sense. And I'm fine writing some of them off. Either number one, I won't have time to flush it out and I'm just not gonna look into it and that's fine. And then number two, I'll look into it, I'll go through it and I just like, I just don't see it, man. That just doesn't make any sense to me. That doesn't fit within my framework. That's fine as well.

I do think that keeping an open mind is important and I'm not, this is not for everything, but I do think that at certain points you have to just call things out that just don't make any sense to you personally. And there's some things going on now in society that I don't think makes sense or like even with, with even some of the food stuff with some of the plant based meats and things like that, like I just don't think it makes sense. I just don't think it's viable from what I've read and from what I've researched from it. And I'm completely comfortable saying I don't agree with that.

Jay
I don't think it makes sense. I'm not for it. And that's completely fine too. There's nothing wrong with that. And then it's just, don't just write it off as, it's plant based. I'll never deal with that. there's, there's, I, there has to be a balance between some of those things. And the reason I bring that distinction up is because I think currently there's been so much sort of like misdirection and misinformation and people not having footing that they're trying to be open-minded about things because they don't want to be closed-minded.

And there are some things that are coming into play that just aren't good. And I think that there needs to be a balance between having an open mind to understand things and try and figure them out. And then once you try and understand things, figure them out, then you sit there and you're like, okay, I don't see it. I just don't see it I don't agree with this. And like being able to take a stand and then being able to it does work out, okay, maybe I was wrong. Right. Well, and that's what I would say open-mindedness is. I would say that it's not saying that everything is equal credence or that anything is possible, but it's more of recognizing the possibility that what you think is correct might not be correct and being open to that possibility that your belief is not right and some other belief might be right. But that doesn't mean that all other beliefs need to be given the same credence or that none of them can be wrong. You can still think that every other belief outside of yours is wrong and just acknowledge that you might be wrong about that.

I think that you put it better than I did. think it's very valuable to be able to do that. Because I don't think like a decision that you make right now may be different later on in a different context. If you're in a particular situation where you go and you're staying in some sort of country and they don't have a lot of beef being produced there and beef is the ultimate food and you can only eat ribeyes, but you're in this country or you're in some circumstance where you can't get a lot of beef, well, you're not going to be able to eat beef and that circumstance may be better. And I guess this isn't such a perfect example, but the best option in that situation may be chicken and maybe fish, maybe something else. The circumstances are going to adjust and then in certain things you may have just been wrong based on what you were thinking in that point in time. like things change over time, ideas and concepts can change. Some may stay. It just.

Jay
I know it's kind of hard to discuss the balance, I feel like. is. and I think you're very much right where, and this all ties together, the kind of group think where you're associating so strongly with these beliefs or identifying so strongly with these beliefs oftentimes goes with that closed mindedness and that strong attachment where you can't acknowledge that there's a possibility that they're wrong. And part of why that's so important too is because that limits the depths to which you can hold any belief.

Like if you can't acknowledge the possibility that you, your belief that you might hold is wrong, then you can't really investigate it that far because you can't consider, okay, well here's this alternative perspective that might be, that might have some credence to it and you know, it is possible. So I'm going to look into it further to determine A, if it's right and then B, if it's not, then you have a better understanding of what your thought process is. And I see that a lot where the people who are typically the most dogmatic about any belief more often than not have looked into it the least.

Because when you look into something in depth, you realize how much nuance there is, how much we don't know as humans and how complex any individual topic can be. so like it's helpful to take those dives because you can understand your belief much deeper. yeah, I think that that sort of like almost every time that sort of group think and that identity with your beliefs and that closed mindedness results in like the stifling of progress and science and any sort of anything productive. Just progress in general, not even limited to science. I think that it's important to be able to be, you can hold the belief, but you also need to be able to understand that the belief may not be reality or may not be correct or it changes in this context. And then when that happens, it's you sort of you have to be able to flush it out a little bit. And in some circumstances, some beliefs just don't work. you understand that more when you've taken that dive into why your belief might not be correct and you still come around and think, okay, I still think it was. You then have a better, like you can empathize with somebody who thought that because you can realize like, you realize really in depth how like how that other point of view works.

Jay
And all their different facts that they're using or like where that perspective is coming from. And the more you understand that the easier it is to empathize with, with people who think that and the less dogmatic you become and the more open-minded you become and the less likely you are to, you know, insult or like to dismiss anybody who thinks something other than you. Yeah. I think a lot of the insulting and dismissing comes down to the fact that it becomes an identity. So the attack on the belief gets conflated with the, with the belief being you.

So when you identify as low carb, vegan, whatever it is, and then somebody attacks veganism, the attack isn't on the concept of veganism at this point in this particular person's mind. The attack winds up becoming an attack on them personally because they are vegan. And I think that a lot of the issue with that is, a lot of issues around beliefs and stuff is the conflation with identity. I think that, I think.

I think that you can, and I think it becomes a point where you don't use your beliefs as a source of your identity. You sort of use your beliefs as a model for how you do certain things. And then you sort of, your identity is sort of, I mean, I am not, for me personally, I don't know necessarily what I specifically attach it onto, but it's not necessarily on like a set of beliefs. I'm open to other beliefs and trying to figure out.

You know, where people are coming from and things like that. but it's the belief system or the sets of beliefs or the frameworks and stuff like that for me personally are more how I'm going to do things. What am I going to do things, how I'm going to do it, why I'm going to do it, trying to figure things out. So I guess maybe, and maybe I'm not putting it so eloquently, but maybe like a way around it or a way to sort of adjust it is to separate your identity from your beliefs.

And sort of maybe the identity is on, can be readjusted to be placed on a person who is open to trying to understand different things or trying to create a framework for themselves or something like that and not on the specific beliefs within that framework. Well, I mean, and you can even say that using that framework is a belief system.

Jay
I mean, I think what you're also getting at is not really needing to rely on that identity. So instead of having to say, I'm blue or red, you know, I'm Democrat or Republican, I am low carb, I'm vegan, it's just I am me. I am I, I, I, I. Like, I am, if you want, if you just want to leave it at that. Like, and just, you know, recognizing that we are just kind of filtering these outside things and we rely on We'd like to put these things into these neat boxes because we don't have to think about it. We don't have to learn, you know, if, you know, I'm a Democrat and I believe everything that Democrats believe, or I am low carbon and all those same things. it relieves, you know, it's the same as relying on that authority. It, it relieves us of, of all of our responsibility to learn and to think and think critically. And instead we, which is difficult. Like, as we've talked about, every aspect, or it seems like every aspect that has been created around us in our modern society is trying to push us in that way. They're trying to push us away from that critical thinking, away from having the energy or time to question our own beliefs or the beliefs of others, and just to subscribe to an ideology and then kind of like, and just kind of fall in line with it. And, you know,
I hope we're not circling back too much, but again, like that is what leads to the divisiveness that we have now, where, you know, everybody thinks what I think is right and smart and everyone who thinks otherwise is dumb and wrong. And very obviously that doesn't, that doesn't lead to anything beneficial, any sort of learning or progress. And so I think that I do think that identifying with any of those beliefs is dangerous because of that.

I guess I would say tentatively that I think the solution is not to identify with beliefs or not to identify at all. doesn't mean you can't believe your beliefs either. It just means that it's not a source of who you are. Yeah, it's not who you are. Okay. It's open to change with new information coming in. mean, I think it's important that people understand that beliefs can be tentative. They don't have to be like lifelong things that that are set in stone. That's why we say they're beliefs, not facts.

Jay
Exactly. And it can be adjusted. It can be adjusted and it adjusts continuously. think that's very important because when you start to recognize and I think a lot of, know personally for me, and I won't extrapolate this out to other people, but when I was younger, I felt that if I didn't believe something over a period of time, then I was hypocritical and I wasn't consistent. But I think the process of living and learning and things like that is a process of  inconsistency to some extent because as you get new information or new context, beliefs will have to change. I think once you start to get open to the idea that the beliefs are tentative, that they adjust consistently over time, then you realize that you can't really attach an identity to them. It doesn't make sense because the only way, the reason you do that is because you realize if you attach an identity to them, yet they constantly change, then you will continually have cognitive dissonance.

You will continually be uncomfortable with yourself because you start to question if you're defining yourselves in these beliefs, you start to question, well, if this is constantly wrong, then what am I? And it starts. And for me, I think that that was a pivotal point that was, that it was difficult for sure because your framework gets shaken because you, and you have to realize that you have to separate the belief from the self because you can't be questioning you all the time.

I mean, it's very difficult. very, it's, it's, it's like emotionally painful to constantly do that. But when then you, think, and that, I think that's spurns on the step in like development where you realize that I'm not, I'm not my belief. My belief is going to constantly change and I'm going to be wrong. And I'm not going to necessarily be kid perfectly consistent over time. And I'm going to have to adjust and things like that. And then I start use, I think you start to see the beliefs is ever changing and then you start to you start to see a non-static version of of either yourself or just everything in general not as non-static and every every situation that you're coming into as being entirely new and having New opportunities and new ways to learn something even if it's difficult or if it's uncomfortable or anything like that so I think it's part of like a learning process in general and I think..

Jay
it is important to avoid the identity aspect of it. the other thing is I think that the divisiveness that's being created now is very detrimental to people beyond just like the effects that it has like economically or politically or anything like that. think that humans in general need a degree of community and structure. And I think that with this constant divisiveness from people identifying with these this belief or that belief, you start to see a lack of cohesion amongst people and then a breakdown and like people being able to form relationships with each other. And then I think when that starts to happen, you start to allow a lot of possibly negative things to come in and a lot of distractions and things to come in where, and people just aren't, and you allow a lot of like questionable things to start coming in to people. Cause they're just, people are at this point, I see a lot of people just looking for something.

And I think they're looking for something to hang on to, to be able to connect with other people. And I think the basis is a lot of people trying to understand what's going on with themselves and what's going on in general. And then also like how to connect with other people and to, to figure things out together. I don't think the individual existence is necessarily the way people like to go, but it's just, it's, it's hard because when you start to get people in groups, start to lose that.

You start to lose that individual aspect. But I mean, for a while I thought what if, what if the unifying element between people and in the formation of the group was the idea of the individual and perhaps, you use that as the, the L the unifying element and as everyone has their individual aspect, I don't know. I guess I sort of like went in tangent with that one. I see what you're basically saying is a group of individuals as opposed to a group of all, like, as opposed to grouping people together as a single entity. Yeah. So to summarize that discussion a little bit, let's see if we can kind of put some cohesion there as that kind of rambling discussion. The kind of thesis idea is that the open-mindedness is required for learning and progress and that that open-mindedness requires a lack of identity, a lack of identifying with your beliefs. Because if you identify with your beliefs in a way that they are a part of you, then challenging those beliefs becomes way too difficult, if not impossible, because of that cognitive dissonance that's there.

Because when you challenge the belief, if it's your identity, winds up the challenging who you being challenged personally, rather than it just being a conversation or topic about the idea itself becomes something about you. And then that triggers the problem. Yeah. And so as far as moving away from that, I mean, that would we didn't really talk about like how we could do that. Maybe we'll discuss that in the future. The awareness is probably the biggest thing.

And having that open mindedness in the way that we've talked about and trying to move away from that group think. I think it's important for you to define open mindedness again one more time. Yeah. So I would say that open mindedness is being open to the possibility that your beliefs aren't accurate, aren't correct. And that allows you to challenge them and allows you to also consider the possibility that other people are right.

So on the alternative, when you're closed minded, the idea would be that there are no other plausible possibilities. There's nothing else that could possibly be right. So I am going to dismiss anything else that is not what I already think. And there's nothing wrong with being wrong. It's part of process. Yeah. And so that's kind of what a lot of this is predicated on is if you have an issue with being wrong, that would suggest that you
do identify very strongly with your beliefs. And that's part of the danger there is that you can't be wrong. And we need to be able to be wrong in order to learn and progress because that is what learning is. That's what progress is. If we still believed, if humans still believed everything they believed a thousand years ago or several thousand years ago, the world would be a very different place. allowing ourselves to challenge our own beliefs is not only important to us on the individual level, but also on the societal level.

Jay
Yeah. So I think if we were to define open mindedness, we would put it as being okay with being wrong and recognizing that you will be wrong and that the idea that in general knowledge or understanding is tentative and adjust over time. Yeah. And that an extension of that would also be that like, because I might be wrong, there are other possibilities because that like that's really what that open mindedness is being open to alternative possibilities, which requires all of those things that we've talked about. That's going to wrap up today's episode. I hope you guys enjoyed it. And if you did, please leave a review or like or comment wherever you're listening to check out the show notes for today's episode. Head over to JFeldmanwellness.com slash podcast where you can check out links to any of the articles or studies that we mentioned throughout today's episode. And as we were talking about throughout today's episode, we don't subscribe to any particular protocols or rules as far as health goes, but rather are trying to outline the broader guidelines and give you the greater scope and perspective as far as health goes. But of course it can be helpful to have some extra guidance throughout your own health journey. And that's something that I'd be happy to offer you. So if that is something you're interested in, head over to jfeldmanwellness.com slash call, sign up for a free call and I'll give you some suggestions you're feeling stuck or a little overwhelmed or lost and help kind of guide you through your health journey. So to sign up for that free call, head over to jfeldmanwilderness.com/call and I will see you in the next episode.