Jay Feldman 0:12
Welcome to Episode 45 of the energy balance podcast, where we teach you how to live without constant hunger and cravings, fatigue, brain fog, poor sleep and other low energy symptoms by maximizing your cellular energy. I'm Jay Feldman. I'm a health coach and independent health researcher, and joining me again today is my good friend Mike Fave. Mike and I have been studying health together for a long time now, and Mike also draws on his experiences from working within the healthcare industry. Today's episode is part four of our autoimmunity series, which is going to be the last episode of the series. If you haven't listened to parts one through three, I'd highly recommend that you go back and do that where we discussed the alternative views of the immune system and autoimmunity, the problems with the mainstream and functional medicine views of autoimmune conditions and also with their proposed solutions. And then we also talked about how you can restore cellular bioenergetics and repair gut health as well as prometabolic nutrition for autoimmune conditions. In today's episode, we will be discussing supplements for autoimmune conditions as well as immune health as a whole. And it is important to emphasize here that these supplements and everything we've talked about throughout this series is not only for those with autoimmune conditions, but this information would also help just for supporting your metabolism as a whole, and to specifically support your immune system in any situation that that you would need some improved immune function. In today's episode in particular, we will be discussing the best supplements to help protect against and to help reverse autoimmune conditions. We'll be talking about why fighting against ourselves and against our immune systems is not the answer for autoimmune conditions. We'll be talking about how you can use supplements in the context of a systemic, bioenergetic approach to autoimmune conditions. We'll be talking about the problems with the term autoimmune disease, and also effective supplements that help to support our metabolism and immune function. If you are new to this podcast, then after listening through today's episode, I'd highly recommend you go back and listen through episodes one through seven, where we took some time to lay out some of the fundamentals as far as the bioenergetic approach to health and nutrition. To check out the show notes for today's episode, you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast where I'll be linking to the studies and articles and other relevant links and things that we discuss throughout today's episode, although I do want to mention that I'm not going to be including all of the studies in relation to the different supplements and autoimmune conditions, because there's, you know, I have close to 100 or even more as far as these autoimmune conditions go. But if you are interested in any particular studies or relationships between these supplements or autoimmune conditions that we mentioned, then feel free to leave a comment or send me a message or an email, which you can send that email over to Jay at Jay Feldman wellness.com and that's j, A, y at Jay Feldman wellness.com and if You are struggling with an autoimmune condition or any other low energy symptom or chronic health condition, and maybe after listening through the first few episodes of this podcast, you're not exactly sure where to start or how to apply the information that you've been learning. Then head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/call where you can sign up for a free call, where we can talk about your situation in a little more detail. And I'd be happy to help offer you some ideas as far as where to start. And you know some of the steps that you might want to take to improve these symptoms or conditions. And again, if you are dealing with any of these low energy symptoms or conditions, maybe that is an autoimmune condition, maybe that's chronic cravings and hunger or low energy or joint pain or weight gain or gut inflammation or hormonal imbalances, insomnia, brain fog. If you're dealing with any of those symptoms or any chronic health conditions, you can also head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, where you can sign up for a free energy balance mini course, where I'll explain why these symptoms and conditions really come down to a lack of energy, and I'll also walk you through some of the main things that you want to do to help to restore your cellular energy and maximize your cellular energy production. So again, to sign up for that free energy balance, mini course, you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, and to sign up for that free call, you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/call, and with that, let's get started.

So assuming that you have addressed the basic things, diet wise, you're eating enough. You're eating enough carbs your blood sugar is balanced, your digestion is is improved, or at least you're eating easily digestible foods, and you you've removed, or at least avoided, some of the primary trigger foods. Again, as we talked about, that's not always necessary. You don't, I mean, I in general, don't recommend getting too extreme with it, where, you know, when someone is very sensitive, they could be triggered by anything. So again, the point is to improve digestive function so that it's not such an issue. And, you know, improving blood sugar regulation and metabolism will help with all of that as well. So assuming that your diet is is pretty good, you've removed, you know, grains and nuts and seeds and some of the you know, we've talked about the issues with all of those there. There is a place for using some supplements that can help speed along the increase in metabolism, that can help speed along the repairing of of the gut health and the microbiome, and helping to basically rebalance the immune system in a lot of ways so that you're not creating this chronic, systemic energy failure and damage that's leading to the autoimmune condition, basically. So there are some particular supplements, and all these that we're going to be talking about have been shown to show, have been shown to basically create improvements in these conditions. And it makes sense, because all of these in some capacity, help to restore energetic function, metabolic function, help to restore the production of energy and lead to some balance there between the supply and demand. So we mentioned these a little bit before as far as gut health goes but B vitamins are pretty important, again, not only for gut health, but also because these are some of the primary drivers of our metabolism, of our ability to convert the fuel that we're taking in into energy. And because of that, these B vitamins have been shown to be pretty effective in improving symptoms in these autoimmune conditions, and even beyond improving symptoms. I mean, some of them have been studied and used for autoimmune conditions for a long time. So in particular, I would emphasize b1, which is thiamine. B3, which is niacin, niacin or I mean, I would recommend the niacinamide form biotin. Is another one that's been studied, particularly with MS, and is generally pretty beneficial. And then, you know, the other a bunch of the other B vitamins are helpful too, like riboflavin, which is b2 vitamin b6 so you know, in general, getting enough B vitamins is helpful, but using some of these supplementary in a supplementary fashion can definitely be pretty protective, metabolically and supportive of, supportive of our metabolic health, and reducing the need for, or the activation of the immune, immune attack, if you want to call it that, even though, as we talked about, it's not actually an attack, it's just clean up. Do you have anything to add about the the B vitamins.

Mike 7:59
I would say, to try to get them from food first and use different foods as supplements. For example, egg yolks are a great source of biotin and choline, which is not technically a B vitamin, but it still has beneficial functions. Some people consider it in the group with them, but and then, liver is a great source. And red meat and shellfish are great source of different B vitamins as well. So even if you don't take a supplement, supplement, using those foods as supplements can be very helpful. So that's that would be my recommendation, to start with the foods if you know not liking liver, oysters or whatever, then you can move into using something like a supplement. And then some of them can be topically applied. There's topical options if you have digestive issues. I know some people get headaches with different B vitamins, but you could also take them orally. You can put them in your food. You can put them in your juice for the dropper. I think some of the large supplements, like the b1 hundreds, might cause issues for some people. So if it is causing an issue, try taking smaller doses with meals over time. So a little bit with your first meal, a little bit with lunch and a little bit with dinner, as opposed to taking a huge dose all at once. Obviously, obviously, convenience plays a part here. So you have to see what fits and what works for your individual lifestyle as well. But those are all some options and just some general ideas for troubleshooting. And I guess at another time we can go over and talk about troubleshooting for supplements at some point.

Jay Feldman 9:32
Yeah, and I mean, you had mentioned the headaches, which generally that. I mean, there's, there can be different reasons, but a common reason would just be a mismatch between fuel, fuel needs and and which are increased by the B vitamins and what you're taking in. So again, this is why, as you mentioned or as you alluded to, it's important to make sure that the the foundational pieces of the diet are there first, and then adding these in, potentially in small amounts, and seeing how you respond is helpful. It's also worth mentioning that normally, when they're seeing benefits from. These B vitamins, in particular, they're using pretty high doses in these, you know, in the research, and I've definitely seen high doses be effective. But just again, as you're cautioning, it's not, you know, we want to make sure that that the foundational pieces of our diet are there. We want to make sure that we're aware of how we're feeling and how we're responding to these things, because they can also be problematic at high doses, if you're not if the context isn't appropriate.

Mike 10:24
Then just keep in mind that singular high dose supplements like just taking b3 for an extended period of time is probably not a good idea. A lot of the B vitamins work in tandem with each other, and are required in certain ratios, not only with themselves, but with other supplements like minerals, for example, magnesium, calcium, iron, a ton of different interactions or interplays occur within the different nutrients, and that's generally why I say try food first. And food also tends to have the least poor poor reactions or side effects, where supplements, I tend to see more negative reactions and side effects, especially when you start using pharmaceutical doses that you find in some of the studies,

Jay Feldman 11:06
right? Yep, so yeah, I think that's all helpful context there. And then moving on from the B vitamins, another kind of class of you could call them supplements, or medications that have been shown to be really beneficial for these conditions are antibiotics. And, of course, the, you know, we talked for a while about the importance of gut health and why, you know, various issues with the microbiome, or, you know, kind of imbalances there can be creating or underlying these autoimmune conditions, we talked a lot about the particular different types of bacteria that are associated with the different autoimmune conditions. So considering that, it's not surprising that all antibiotics have been shown to be really effective in and protective in these conditions. Of course, this would, you know, I wouldn't want to go that route until, until other things to address gut health have been addressed, and we talked about a bunch of those also, you know, refer back to some of the previous episodes we've done, as well as an episode discussing herbal antibiotics or antimicrobials, which would also probably be Good to look into. But there's also definitely a place for using particular antibiotics. Specifically, the tetracyclines have been shown to be effective in these conditions, and that's, again, not only because they're antibiotic effects, but they also have some other beneficial effects as well.

Mike 12:36
Yeah, I would, I tend to caution around the use of antibiotics, and I'd like to, as you mentioned, put them as sort of a last resort type of modality. The problem with them is because they can worsen imbalances or create new imbalances, while at the same time, they also can have a beneficial effect. Within the ray peat community, in general, the ideas for lower dosages, but in particular for tetracyclines, within specific mineral cycling, they use that like very specifically for diseases like Ankylosing Spondylitis and rheumatoid arthritis, because they have disease modifying capacity, as well as also being an antibiotic, and they use lower dosages. As far as gut issues go. Within the autoimmune field, there's the use of the herbal antimicrobials, like oregano oil monolorn, which I've seen help people out and even people without autoimmune diseases. So I tend to stick to those first, especially because the the essential oils tend to selectively inhibit the pathogenic species and not necessarily decimate the entire flora, like a lot of the stronger pharmaceutical antibiotics can the other thing is, the use of anti antifungal components can also be helpful, depending on what's going on and with any of the pharmaceutical stuff, whether that's antifungal or antibacterial, I think it'd be best to work with a doctor with Those and have somebody who's monitoring you while you take them. Some of the antibiotics can be very toxic. Some of them are okay. For example, the floral quinolones are can have some pretty strong toxicity. Those are some to avoid. They have black box warnings. Same thing with Flagyl as coming out with some toxicity, particularly to mitochondria. So there's no point in taking something to help get rid of your Flora while you decimate your own mitochondria. So I would stay away from some of those. And again, I would work with somebody who has some knowledge with antibiotics specifically, and not just create these, these full bore, all rounded antibiotic protocols and wipe everything out. I think a lot of people are seeing in some of the Lyme protocols that they're doing with intravenous antibiotics. That using too much can also create its own problems down the line. So I would just hesitate and have an air of caution around the antibiotics, and stick with the herbal antimite The herbal antimicrobials first, and then move down from there. And also, again, if this the. Is within the context of having adequate nutrients and adequate diets set up.

Jay Feldman 15:04
Yeah, yeah. And I mean the herbal antimicrobials can have the same effects too. I mean, too high doses, too many for too long, can be just as problematic as excessive antibiotic use. By the same token, again, the the safe antibiotics like the tetracyclines and, you know, penicillin would fall in that category, erythromycin. You know, I would argue that those are a lot safer than a lot of other medications, a lot of other supplements, a lot of other foods that people are are, you know, using either in these conditions or otherwise. So definitely caution there, and I would not just take them, you know, freely, without any concern of some of the negative effects, but also keeping in mind that they also have a bit of a bad rap. So I wouldn't, you know, I do. I do think that in some cases that can be warranted, but it kind of depends. So yeah, yeah.

Mike 15:55
I would just make sure you look up the correct dosages. And again, I still always caution that work with some practitioners as an idea of what they're doing, just because some of the side effects, even within the safer ones, talking about like a C Diff infection, can can be problematic. So just things to keep in mind and to be aware of before you consider doing something like, like taking the pharmaceutical antibiotics, yeah, and even while they are a lot safer than most pharmaceutical drugs by far, right.

Jay Feldman 16:17
Right, yeah. So moving on from those, there's, you know, pretty large there's a plethora of different pro metabolic and anti inflammatory supplements that can be used again just, I know we'll probably say it so many times, but diet and lifestyle have such huge importance here in keeping stress down and supporting our metabolism and rectifying these issues that it's it's so important that that's at least pretty good before using any of these things. But as far as some of these pro metabolic ones that are all shown to help in these autoimmune states and also in various other situations that our immune system is involved in. I mean, they're pretty much all antivirals as well. And I don't think that's coincidence. We talked about a lot of these in episode zero of the podcast when you're talking about coronavirus. But so a few of them would be caffeine, methylene blue, anosine, aspirin, and then the steroid hormones, the pregnant alone, and the androgen hormones, and then progesterone as well. Then also we've got thyroid t3 or or desiccated thyroid. So all of these are generally pretty stimulatory to our metabolism and generally have a lot of anti inflammatory effects. They're generally very good at at supporting energy production, preventing energy failures, supporting our structure and rebuilding it, as opposed to leading to that deterioration again. As long as we have enough fuel. We have the nutrients needed. We don't have anything inhibiting that process of producing energy from the fuel we're taking in, which, as we talked about, can be things like nutrient deficiencies. It could be PUFA, it can be heavy metals, it could be endotoxinia, yep, exactly. So those are all things to consider, but assuming that those factors are generally accounted for, then these pro metabolic, anti inflammatory supplements can all be pretty helpful.

Mike 18:27
Yeah, I would just add to I know a lot of people who have autoimmune diseases are started out, particularly with things like rheumatoid arthritis or ulcerative colitis or even Crohn's disease. They're given hydrocortisone or prednisone or other synthetic glucocorticoids. I think it's important to if you're going to take something like an androgen or like progesterone, to run it by your doctor as well, so that you don't have any skewed issues. But it's something important to know is that the DHEA and pregnenolone do have protective effects against some of the negative effects of glucocorticoids and their synthetic analogs. So those could be helpful in those conditions. But again, I would still run it by if your rheumatologist or any infectious disease specialist, or which whichever type of doctor is managing the individual autoimmune disease. And then from there, I would just say that some of the other compounds, again, always watch how you're feeling when you take them, but I have found them to be pretty helpful. And I know that aspirin and pregnant alone specifically used to be standard of care for a number of different autoimmune diseases in the past, and aspirin is still used in, uh, I think it's juvenile, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, and I think it's even used within current RA patients, is, is use aspirin. So aspirin, in general, most of those are pretty safe. Most of them are, are pretty safe. Overall, I would just again, run by with whoever's managing whatever primary care doctor is managing medications, particularly if you're on something like. Prednisone, to run that by them, if you're going to start using progesterone or any of the other hormones, just just to avoid any sort of issues with if they're checking your labs, or if they're going to do a steroid taper, or anything along those lines, which is, anyone with an with an autoimmune disease, would, I think would have a general understanding of this, of what they're going with the prednisone and whatnot, just because, unless it's your first time, you probably had to use it before. So yeah, just something to keep in mind. And then I think in general, natural desiccated thyroid and t3 are usually pretty safe for people, uh, obviously with thyroid, no heart issues or anything like that. I just like to put out the for some of the more potent supplements, especially with people who have some of these more serious disease and if you're in the later progressing stages of some of these diseases, it's just important to, I guess, consult with a doctor about some of the supplements and some of the components, just to see if it doesn't interact with what's already going on, especially with people who are on the prednisone, but then Also some of the newer what are the newer disease modifying monoclonal antibody therapies and things that that they're using, they have a, I think they have a pretty wide range of side effects, and their main effects are, are discussed in pharma, but we, I don't think they have been used long enough for a lot of people To see what the wide, wide ranging, long term effects are some of these compounds and how they interact with other things. So just, just important to, I guess, be vigilant about the interactions of these different components.

Jay Feldman 21:31
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's important to mention, as you did, the interactions with some of the immunosuppressive drugs that are used in these different scenarios. And I think it's helpful to kind of clarify also that it's a little different when you're talking about somebody with an autoimmune condition like Hashimotos or rosacea or eczema, as opposed to somebody with multiple sclerosis or rheumatoid arthritis or you see yeah Or Yeah or ulcerative colitis, where, in those latter cases, they tend To use the immunosuppressive type drugs frequently, and I mean, especially as the disease progresses. Whereas in something like Hashimotos or rosacea, you know, the they're less severe, you could say they the tendency is to just favor symptom management, in which case you don't have as much concern over the interaction. Yeah, of course, talk with your doctor, but it's less of a less of a situation. Another thing I would add to what you alluded to is that they used to use pregnenolone in situations like rheumatoid arthritis, before using glucocorticoids, like the prednisone, whatever it is. So, yeah, it's, it's just worth mentioning that these, these things, have a history with autoimmune conditions. There's quite a bit of research on virtually all of them in these cases, and this also lends support to the whole idea that our metabolism is so tightly regulated to these states, and that they're all very supportive of our metabolism and happen to improve these conditions. So I think that's worth mentioning.

Mike 23:02
I think some other beneficial compounds that can be used for the various autoimmune states are the fat soluble vitamins themselves. This is Vitamin D, Vitamin A, Vitamin K, Vitamin E. I guess we'll go one by one, but specifically for vitamin E, when you look at people doing a low linoleic acid diet for MS, then Vitamin E has protective effects against the polyunsaturated fatty acids, including linoleic acid, and including some of the inflammatory mediators produced by them and their lipid peroxidative products. So Vitamin E functions in like enhancing the that path, those pathways, in like a protective sense, and then also just it has a host of other hormonal properties, such as lowering estrogen and things along those lines, Vitamin K, Vitamin D and vitamin A function together, not only in calcium metabolism, but they also function in immune function. Vitamin A has a pretty potent effect in barrier defense, so that's in the gut, that's on the mucous membranes, that's on the skin. And then also Vitamin D has an interplay with vitamin A there, so both of those together have a synergistic effect. And then vitamin K, all has also plays into that. This almost like a trifecta, I guess you, if you want to call it, Vitamin K, plays into that, not only for building bones, protecting bones in diseases like Ra, but also any, any of the inflammatory conditions which have a negative impact on the bones. And it helps to lower inflammatory hormones like parathyroid hormone. And then they also all function together, as I said previously, in immune function. So the all the fat solubles have a host. I mean, it's, it's beyond this, just this general statement about them to talk about all the things that they do. They have so many effects in so many different ways and but it's just the important thing to keep in mind is that they, the three of them, tend to function best together. Mm. And having enough of all three together is is important. You can get them in food, but in a lot of these states, they can also be used as, I guess, modalities, or as supplements, to help deal with the states overall. The other thing that's going to be important is when you're using vitamin D, vitamin K and vitamin A to make sure that you have adequate calcium and magnesium intake, because they alter those pathways. And they require the they require a higher intake of those minerals to go with them. So, and that's what most nutrients, whether it's B vitamins, whether it's minerals, whether it's a fat soluble vitamins, they all require other minerals and other vitamins to function. So just taking high doses of one, and I know there's certain protocols that do things like that, but I they tend to work in tandem together. They tend to work together. So it's important to have everything together. And this is why it's extremely important to have a solid diet as a background and then add supplements as needed. It everything should be with, with within certain bounds. Obviously, Vitamin D is very hard to get from the diet. It's generally something that you get from the sun. You can get it in fatty fish, but obviously, that we're not necessarily a fan of eating such high amounts of fatty fish. To meet vitamin D requirements, you'd have to eat a decent amount for most seafood sources. But in general, your vitamin A, your vitamin K and your vitamin E, you can get and even some of your vitamin D, you can get a solid amount from lifestyle choices, whether that's tanning in the sun and then eating a solid diet and then adding in extra after seeing how much you have on the table within your diet, within your regular diet. So again, these are all supplements. These are all additional components that are added on top of a diet, having a pure granulated sugar diet, like just drinking Coke all day long, and, you know, eating lean chicken breast and then trying to meet all your nutrients from supplements, I don't think is a good idea at all. So I just, I just, I want to put that stipulation out there and just let people know that the importance of diet first, and then these can be added on top. And they do a lot of these. I know they're thought of as vitamins, but a lot of a lot of them, the fat soluble vitamins, especially, can have pretty potent effects on people's immune system and metabolic function in general. So, like, yes, they're Oh, they're just vitamins. No, they have much more effect than just vitamins, especially when you start supplementing them on top of a solid diet. A lot of people are finding that they have pretty pulling effects for autoimmune diseases as well. That's why there's protocols based off of just using, like, one of them, I think, is the Coimbra protocol. I don't probably butchering the name, where it's just high doses of vitamin D, higher doses than I think both you and I would recommend, but high dose vitamin D. So.

Jay Feldman 27:51
Yeah, I mean, and just as another example, I mean pretty high doses of vitamin k2. Have been used for rheumatoid arthritis. So yeah, I mean, we're talking about levels beyond what you would be able to get reasonably from diet, or, you know, sunshine. When it comes to vitamin D, there are places for those things, again, as long as they're used in context, but in a situation where you're in a what, you know, potentially a relatively severe condition, that might be a situation where you would want to be looking into higher doses on top of an already good lifestyle. So, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't have too much else to add there. I liked what you were mentioning as far as Vitamin E goes, where we talked about the influence of PUFA in autoimmune conditions, and vitamin E is basically protective against that. And then you mentioned estrogen as well, which we also talked about how estrogen act similarly, similarly to the stress hormones and similarly to the polyunsaturated fats. So Vitamin E is a good way to basically oppose all of those things.

Mike 28:49
Yep, and all the all, even vitamin A and vitamin D have functions in lowering estrogen, affecting the metabolism of cortisol and then also upregulating androgens. And vitamin K has pretty positive effects in general, on metabolism, especially by affecting the electron transport chain and different, I guess, more in depth topics for the different components, but there's, there's a lot of benefit to these vitamins in general, and not only the fat solubles, but the V vitamins, and then also having adequate minerals. I I know I'm repeating it, but I think it's really important to to make it clear that they need things need to be used together. You know, just go dose 10,000 I use a vitamin D by itself every single day, and think that that's going to be a solid strategy, even if you get your Vitamin D within range, because it needs the other components to function, they all work together.

Jay Feldman 29:43
Sure, yep. Did you want to go on to taurine and glycine?

Mike 29:50
Sure, so the other these, both taurine and glycine are amino acids they have general protective effects in the body for a multitude of conditions supposed to. Uh, taurine specifically for atherosclerosis. Uh, they're protected. And then touring and glycine are protective of the liver. And then I think they're using taurine and Ms. They function in in a bio acid metabolism, which helps keep the small intestine clear. If there is a small intestine bacterial overgrowth, they help with the absorption and utilization of the fat soluble vitamins. Glycine functions as a structural component for collagen. It has a direct anti inflammatory effect. Taurine does as well a direct antioxidant effect. And then taurine also functions as it's converted into compounds that are used in the immune system to destroy pathogens, and both of them have get, well, glycine is in an inhibitory neurotransmitter in and of itself, so it's, it literally is considered a neurotransmitter. And then taurine has some GABAergic so it functions like GABA and the nervous system. So both glycine and taurine are, I guess they're more like they have a relaxing effect. That's, I guess, a good way to put it.

Jay Feldman 31:07
Yeah. anti excitotoxic effect as well, which we'll be talking about in a bit too. Yeah.

Mike 31:12
Exactly. So they have, like, just potent, general positive effects in the body. The only thing to watch out for them as side effects is both touring and glycine. When you start taking them in, they can up regulate bio acid production by acid synthesis, synthesis, and then for some people, that can cause some intestine issues. So it's important to just keep that in mind. But there people have done studies with boltorine and glycine, and have taken large amounts of them over extended periods of time with very like, there was, like, zero toxic toxicity, maybe some, again, a little bit of GI upset, and some, for some people. But besides that, nothing really specific to to report about them. And I've taken both touring and glycine without much issue. The other thing is, Glycine can be found pretty in pretty high amounts, in collagen, whether that's collagen hydrolysate or your bone bar, your bone broth. So that can be get gotten through the diet. Taurian can as well. It's found in high amounts in shellfish, and particularly scallops. So those are good sources. But again, if you can get a pretty potent beneficial effect from using them as supplements, and you can buy them as pure powders. And I would say to and when taking them, probably best to take them at night, because they because they do have such a relaxing effect, especially when you start taking them, you can sort of be a little out of it. They do have a pretty at least for me, they have a pretty potent relaxing effect. So I tend to take them at night so and again, they're just the other thing is, Glycine has been shown pretty, pretty specifically to help people with sleep.

Jay Feldman 32:48
Yep, yeah. And I've seen taurine help with that too. Yeah.

Mike 32:52
I guess you want to mention the taurine was specific for Ms. Did you want to talk about that or...

Jay Feldman 32:58
I mean, I would just, you know it was, there's just some interesting studies showing taurine being effective for remyelination in MS, and I think it was in combination with thyroid hormone as well with t3 that the combination of those was not only protective, but regenerative, which is, again, you know, something that we talked about as a possibility and something that isn't really acknowledged as a possibility in most of the mainstream, yep, along with those, a couple of our other pharmaceutical compounds that might be worth looking into for, you know, for these conditions, would be adamantane and its derivatives, which also includes amantadine. And these are pretty interesting, unique compounds. They're used in general as antivirals, and have been for a while, and then also have been used in Parkinson's, which is interestingly, now being classified as an autoimmune condition. They seem to have some pretty direct effects on the energetic systems, and talking about, basically the structuring of water, which, if you go back to Episode One of the podcast, we discussed that a little bit and how energy generation improves structure. And you know, in these episodes, we've discussed how structural deterioration is kind of that sign that, along with the energy failure, which they go hand in hand, is basically the underlying dysfunction that's responsible for the autoimmune state. So they basically, again, adamantine, which, you know, might be a little more available is, you know, will act directly on that level, and tends to also have a lot of very general anti stress properties, and has been and then amantadine, which is a derivative, has been shown to be effective in Ms. So those would be, you know, things to consider looking into. Another one would be clonidine, which has been used in Ulcerative Colitis and Crohn's, and that is, again, basically opposing these stress systems. So

Mike 34:52
Very centrally it functions. It's like a central inhibitor of stress hormones in the brain. I think it's particularly act. H adrenal corticotropin hormone.

Jay Feldman 35:03
yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, just, you know, I definitely don't have any concrete recommendations there, but just things to look into depending on your situation. And yeah, I don't, I mean, is there anything else you want to add as far as those last compounds, or just any of these supplements, in general.

Mike 35:21
With all the supplements, I think it's important to introduce one thing at a time and see the effects over a course of a couple days before introducing something new. Just because when you first start doing something, if you are going to get any type of side effect from it, or negative effect, which is very possible with even vitamins, even your B vitamins, you you want to let it unfold over the course of a few days to see when it's if it's going to hit, and what's going to hit, and you can rule out what it is, so you don't start creating new symptoms from something entirely different that's not related to what's already going on, even if you solve other issues. So I think it's just important to try things slowly, try things one at a time and again. I really think it's important for people to adjust their diet and lifestyle first, so that that's adjusting. You know, how you're eating, how much you're eating, when you're eating, adjusting, getting time in the sunlight and trying to lower some stress as much as possible, because the stress a lot of people don't realize. But even in even in mainstream medical models, the idea of the stress system, the stress cascade and the effects of cortisol and estrogen and adrenaline are recognized as promoting an autoimmune state. They move the immune system towards autoimmunity. So it's important to to to lower stress, as well as do as like, as well as adjust these other lifestyle components and and see that as just as important as diet, just as important as supplements. Because a lot of people, they'll find that stress will trigger their the autoimmune conditions. That's a huge trigger for a lot of people. So and stress can is not only psychological stress, there's also stress from darkness. So a lot of people's symptoms or disease processes tend to flare in the winter. That's pretty common for people that I've seen in during the winter months, when it gets colder and darker, they tend to see a lot more of their symptoms come up. So it's, it's important to keep all these different elements in mind and to sort of build out the system. I think of it as a system, the lifestyle that you're going to create for yourself or manage for yourself, to manage the disease state, and also your just your health in general. Because, again, it's more than just getting rid of the disease. You get rid that's the first step. Yes, you want to get rid of your symptoms. But while we're doing that, at the same time, we want to move towards increasing health in general and increasing function in general. And that can include increasing libido, increasing mental clarity, mental function helping regulate moods better. So all this, all this functions together. It all should be moving together in a direction. It's because, because the general medical model, at the moment, at least in my experience, and at least from my reading, is essentially, we have a disease, you have these symptoms, and we're going to manage your symptoms, and we're going to manage the disease. And there's no focus on any other component, and the entire system is based on finding this one unique pathway in the immune system that we can inhibit to therefore inhibit the immune response and get rid of colitis. So it's just like we're gonna just, we're gonna use this obscure, obscure immunosuppressant drug. And once we suppress your immune system, you're also with colitis is away, but now you're at risk for X, Y and Z disease, whether it's tuberculosis or cancer or this or that. So there's not really a systemic approach to adjusting health. It's just about finding one niche area of some certain metabolic pathway, adjusting it with some patented drug, and then calling it a day. It doesn't really solve any of the underlying problems. And a lot of people and a lot of their immuno autoimmune diseases lead to other problems, lead to heart disease, lead to kidney problems, lead to liver problems, and part of those problems are from the drugs themselves. So it's really important to see it as a systemic issue. Ulcerative colitis is not just because your colon doesn't like you, or that it's just an autoimmune response to your colon. Yes, there is some inflammatory response to your colon, the immune system is involved, but at the same time, it's a state the body, the specific state of the body is allowing this to occur and that that needs to be recognized and and I think when, when we start changing the paradigm and changing the idea of what these diseases are as, and looking at them from a systemic approach, as a whole body issue, not just a colon issue, not just a myelin issue on the nerves in MS, not just a joint issue in ra but an actual. Systemic inflammatory issue, then I think we'll start to make more changes in the in these diseases. And the thing that's funny is the way people are diagnosed in a lot of these diseases is looking at systemic inflammatory markers like the sedimentation rate or C reactive protein, and then different immune markers, elevations and WBCs. So when you start looking at all this stuff, it's just like these are all systemic markers, and we're we're looking for, they're showing progression to disease. So why is it not recognized as systemic state? And once, I think again, once we move to that, I think it'll be a lot more helpful for treatments. And that's what, what we're trying to promote here is, yes, we can address the underlying problems with supplements and different drugs, different compounds, but we need to address the lifestyle first, and we need to or simultaneously, we need to address the whole picture altogether.

Jay Feldman 40:54
Right. And I think the important, the important point there, is that, as you said, it's not a matter of getting rid of a disease, but rather shifting a state, you know, shifting from a state where autoimmunity exists to a state where it's not able to, or it's not an it's not telling me that it's not able to, it's that it doesn't a state that doesn't create that, you know, it's the condition that the body is in first, and then we call that autoimmunity second, you know, that's, that's layered on top. It's a it's a product of that. So, you know, and you mentioned this too, as far as like these diseases leading to other autoimmune conditions, leading to other problems, heart issues and whatever. And it doesn't even have to be that the autoimmune condition is leading to that, but rather that you're already in this chronically stressed, inflamed, you know, destructive type state, this state of lack of energy and deterioration that is also going to leave to lead to those other conditions. It's not necessarily even mediated by the autoimmune condition. Of course, in some cases it is. But, yeah, I think it's a helpful shift as far as the perspective of the condition, which, again, that's why I prefer the term condition over disease. And again, just to tack on as well, I think stress is, as you said, a huge part of this. Anytime we're looking at energy balance, stress is going to be a major component there. And I do think it's worth emphasizing for sure, just just all again, as you said, there's emotional components, there's social components, rest and relaxation, and there's a lot to all of that community, but it's definitely worth mentioning is a pretty major factor, yeah.

Mike 42:40
I think I something that comes out of listening to what you're saying there as defining it as a state, or like a state or a condition within the context of life. I think getting out of the language of making it a disease or like it this is autoimmunity. So it's your immune system attacking yourself like I think the premise of that is problematic, because it sets you up towards certain what I want to call them, certain preconceived notions about what that means. And it's just like you have an inflammatory condition. You're you're in an inflammatory state. It's manifesting in this certain way. The thing is, in every single chronic disease state, and in every single state in general, the immune system is involved. So that's why it you that's why they can start playing around with definitions of Oh, Parkinson's is now moving towards being defined as an autoimmune disease, whereas before it was, it was this pathway where you have destruction of certain areas of the brain, like, you can play around with the definition however you want, but at the end of the day, it's a systemic state. And while we talk about one particular pathway, oh, it's the destruction of these particular neurons in the brain, that still, yes, there's destruction of these particular neurons, but there's other things going on simultaneously as well, and just looking at it as, Oh, we found it. It's this one pathway, once you stop that we, for example, we just give you excess of, like, an excess amount of dopamine, and think they inhibit some acetylcholine, and then basically, you're all set to go. I don't think that that really and I we see it. It doesn't solve the problem. It just manages the disease going forward for a period of time while it progressively gets worse. And that's because it's not just one pathway and Rec and getting getting cubbyholed into one pathway with one treatment process and not recognizing it as systemic state just completely eliminates any, any sort of, I guess rational thought about, well, maybe there's a lot of other things going on, and you start seeing, Oh, there's an autoimmune component. The the next response from, from a modern medical standpoint, then, is okay, we need to find whatever point in this immune pathway that we can inhibit to stop that process. And bam, we stopped Parkinson's disease. And. You have to start looking at all these other things. It's not just these, this one obscure pathway. I think that the research and this ideas is a huge detractor of trying to figure out what's actually going on. They're just looking for these silver bullets. And there is, there will never be silver bullets for any of these things. It's always going to be a systemic, systemic solutions, because you have a systemic problem.

Jay Feldman 45:25
Right. I mean, when we talk about reductionism in conventional medicine, that's what we're talking about, reducing this complex system that is greater than the sum of its parts to just being individual pieces that need to be addressed separately. And I, agree, sort of the terminology of even autoimmunity gives you this notion that your body is fighting against itself, and then, of course, you have to then fight against your body, which is something that we talk about all the time, as far as it being basically a very common narrative from the mainstream, and also being basically the exact opposite of what we want. And you know, instead, we want to be preventing, not our own immune system from attacking itself, but preventing degradation. And you made that comparison with Parkinson's, which I think is great. So we want to prevent that degradation by supporting the energetic level of function. We don't want to stop our immune system from functioning as if that's that's become the problem in Parkinson's.

Mike 46:22
Well, everything is as as complex as they like to make it, with all this jingoisms and lingo and medical terms, you know, and these different pathways and proteins and this, all this ridiculousness that that the research can get into, the underlying premise is still the immune system is the enemy. We have to stop it. Or, like, for cancer, it's like cancer is the enemy. We have to kill those cells. We have to radiate them. We have to poison them. We have to do all this. And well, then we could save your body from from itself, from these cancerous cells, or from from your immune system, which is just attacking you. It's like the premise of it, underlying it is still simple. It's still this. It's still this idea of you versus some enemy. And regardless of how unique or complex or whatever new terms are created to describe it, at the end of the day, it's still the same exact premise is being put out there. And I think that the that premise is the problem. It's like, it's it's as if that it, I feel like the underlying assumption is, if your body is always trying to work against you, and you just need to use the right combination of drugs to to basically put your body into submission, like you were just born with this autoimmune disease has nothing to do with, you know, all your lifestyle factors, your stress, poor diet, lack of nutrients, exposure to radiation, exposure to pollutants, none of those things are involved. It's literally just, Oh, you just have you just your immune system just attacking you. And it's the same thing with infections too. It's like, oh, there's just justice bacteria. It's attacking you, so we just need to kill it with all these antibiotics, instead of recognizing, well, well, you technically shouldn't have gotten the infection in the first place. Your body should be able to handle staph bacteria, which lives on your skin in general, right? And then the other thing is like, Oh, now, now the bacteria is becoming resistant to our attacks. We're getting these resist they're They're strong. They're getting stronger. We need to find more, better weapons to kill them with which is this the whole new narrative, and it's, it's just like, well, they've been the bacteria have been resistant for years. For for decades, it's been known that certain bacteria are resistant to antibiotics. Some of them, just by the nature of of their structure, they're resistant to certain antibiotics. And others have just they've been resistant, for for they may have even been resistant before we even determined that they were resistant. It's just that we've now have more technology and more testing to look at these different things so and like I've seen studies where they basically culture bacteria. I think it was from like a a container of flowers, and most of the bacteria in the flowers were resistant to antibiotics already, and it was just like, we have a problem with all these, all these bacteria being resistant. Was just, and this is not, I know there's bacteria involved, and I think a lot of the autoimmunity, with some of the molecular mimicry, but again, it's it. My point of bringing all this up, particularly about the antibiotics in the bacteria and whatnot. It's not to harp on that issue, but to draw the parallels and how people are, or how the modern medical system is thinking about everything in terms of you versus this enemy, and the enemy's bacteria or a virus or or something's always attacking you, something's always trying to kill you, instead of looking at, well, what's the resilience of the body in general. I think that that's, and, I mean, we see this now more than ever with what's going on currently, but we're not, we're not going to talk about all that.

Jay Feldman 49:50
Yeah, and that's, I mean, that's why I think the bioenergetic view creates such illumination, you know, and creates this cohesion. Is a view that does not involve your body fighting against itself or you need and then you needing to fight against your body. And we talked about that a ton in terms of of weight loss, but it's the same thing here with the without immunity in our immune systems, as we talked about with all these alternative views of of our immune systems that don't involve our bodies attacking themselves. They don't involve our bodies even killing pathogens, but rather just trying to maintain structural integrity and and the production and sustained, yeah, like energy availability, so yeah.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right, that's going to wrap up this series on autoimmunity. If you did enjoy today's episode and this series, please leave a like or comment on YouTube or a review or five star rating on iTunes, all of those things really do a lot to help support the podcast. To check out the show notes for today's episode, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast where you can take a look at the studies and articles and anything else that we talked about throughout today's episode, and as I mentioned before the episode, I'm not going to be including all of the hundreds of studies linking these conditions and supplements, but if you are interested in any in particular, feel free to leave a comment or send me a message directly or an email, which you can send over to Jay at Jay Feldman wellness.com and if you are struggling with an autoimmune condition or any other low energy symptoms and you're not sure exactly where to start, you've listened through this series and you're not sure how to apply this information, or you maybe have some questions that may pertain specifically to your individual situation, then you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/call where you can sign up for a free call and be happy to help clarify for you or bridge that gap so that you can begin to restore your cellular energy availability and improve from these symptoms and conditions, and also if you are dealing with any of these autoimmune conditions or chronic health conditions or low energy symptoms like chronic pain or weight gain or chronic cravings and hunger, or brain fog, gut inflammation or other digestive symptoms, hormonal imbalances or poor sleep. Then you can also head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, where you can sign up for a free energy balance mini course, where I will walk you through the main things that you want to do to maximize your cellular energy, and I'll also explain why this is so important for resolving these symptoms and conditions. So again, to sign up for that free energy balance mini course, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, and for that free call, you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/call, and with that, I will see you in the next episode.