Jay Feldman 0:04
Welcome to episode 90 of the energy balance podcast, where we teach you how to live without constant hunger and cravings, fatigue, brain fog, poor sleep and other low energy symptoms by maximizing your cellular energy. I'm Jay Feldman. I'm a health coach and independent health researcher, and joining me again today is my good friend of Mike. Fave. Mike and I have been studying health and nutrition together for a long time now, and Mike also draws on his experiences from working within the healthcare industry. Today's episode is a lightning round Q and A episode where we will be answering a bunch of your questions and trying to keep our answers rather short, so we can jump around to a handful of different topics and answer a bunch of questions. So in today's episode, more specifically, we'll be talking about our thoughts on the benefits from a paleo keto paleo ketogenic diet. We'll be discussing what to do if you're dealing with dental issues from sugar consumption. We'll be talking about our experiences eating 5000 to 6000 calories per day, and we'll also discuss the best time to eat the carrot salad, among many other things. If you have any questions that you'd like us to answer on a future q&a episode, you can send those into Jay at Jay Feldman wellness.com that's j, A, y at Jay Feldman wellness.com or feel free to leave those in the comments if you're watching on YouTube. And if you are new to the podcast, I'd highly recommend that after you listen through this episode, you go back to listen to episodes one through seven, where we took some time to build a foundation as far as the bioenergetic view of health is concerned. To check out the show notes for today's episode, you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast where you can take a look at the studies and articles and anything else that we referenced throughout today's episode, and if you're dealing with any symptoms that are either related or unrelated to the many questions that we'll be digging into today, maybe you're dealing with chronic cravings, hunger, low energy or fatigue, chronic pain, weight gain, digestive symptoms, brain fog, poor sleep, hormonal imbalances, low libido, or various other low energy symptoms or chronic health conditions. Then head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, where you can sign up for a free energy balance mini course, where I'll explain how these different symptoms and conditions are really caused by lack of energy. And I'll also walk you through the main things that you can do from a diet and lifestyle perspective to maximize your cellular energy and resolve these symptoms and conditions. So to sign up for that free energy balance mini course, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, and with that, let's get started.

Let's go on to do some, some lightning round questions. Basically, there's a handful of questions on YouTube and elsewhere that I just, you know, we just don't have time to respond to all the comments to but, you know, I figured we could do some quick minute or two answers from both sides. If you know, if it comes to slightly along our conversation, it's fine, but just trying to give some quick answers to these questions that we don't have the time to get to necessarily on each of the comments, but this way we can, we can get through a bunch quickly. So looks like adita who had sent a question earlier. I think this is the same person says, can you speak about fish oil, krill oil, etc, and why they show benefits and studies in reduction of inflammation and cholesterol reduction. It's difficult to argue people outside of the pro metabolic realm regarding omega threes, and very less people scientifically argue regarding the dangers of omega threes. I think we get the gist. But just for reference, so we talked about this, you know, omega threes and PUFA in general, extensively in an earlier episode. I'll link to that one, and we've talked about it in terms of its effects on oxidative stress, its ability to lower cholesterol, and some of its other issues in other episodes too. So I'll link to all of those. But in essence, the questions here in terms of reducing inflammation and cholesterol reduction, the first thing I would say is, in terms of cholesterol reduction, we talked about this in the fatty liver podcast, how, basically, the way that these omega threes are reducing cholesterol is by causing oxidative stress that prevents the export of fat from the liver, which is actually something that drives fatty liver disease pathology. It's not a beneficial thing, but it happens to reduce LDL cholesterol, so that's looked at as a good thing, but I think when you look at the mechanisms, and then the broader picture, again, we've talked about why we don't want to just lower cholesterol just because, and the problems with that concept in previous episodes as well. So I'll  link to those. But in general, that is how those mechanisms go on. And I would say that's not particularly beneficial, even though it does lower that marker. And then in terms of the reduction in inflammation, we did talk about this on those previous episodes that I'll link to, but basically. What we have is an immunosuppression that will reduce the presentation of inflammation, but it does by inhibiting the immune system function in the same way that an immunosuppressive medication might do so in an audit, you know, like something that's prescribed for autoimmune conditions, where, yes, it reduces the inflammation in the short term, but the way that it does it causes some long term problems and a ton of side effects. So you see that parallel presentation with omega 3.

Mike 5:30
Yeah, I mean, I, I think I've talked about this extensively. We've talked about extensively, and then I've talked about it extensively in multiple places, but essentially, and I think I even talked about the study. I think we talked about it here at one point where they gave rats fish oil versus different types of oils, and and after they presented them, I think, with a bacteria, Crobinium, which causes a colitis in in in mice or rats. And essentially, the rats that got omega threes, they didn't get colitis, but they got sepsis and died, and that was because of the immunosuppressive effect. And then the other thing, so there is, there is some extent of immunosuppression from the Omega threes. It's like, we don't have, I guess, exact amounts and what, how that what level that happens in humans yet? Because all omega threes are all the rage right now, but we definitely see some immunosuppressant effects. And I think there was even a study showing some like dampening effects on immune cells in older adults from omega threes. I'd have to find it. I remember reading something along those lines. And then as far as the as far as the anti inflammatory effect, specifically, besides an immunosuppressive effect, there is competition with the Cox and lox enzymes and some of the mediators that are produced from them via the oxidation of these different fatty acids, whether Omega three or omega six, that, if Like, the different Omega three remediators are called Pro resolving mediators. And they tend to, they they tend to have, like, somewhat anti inflammatory effect compared to the Omega six, and they compete with Omega six. So there's a balance. And essentially, taking omega threes can have, I think Dr Pete has called it like an aspirin like effect, in that sense, where they're, they're, they're like, kind of out competing in the Omega six. So And with that, with that in mind, the the solution would be to keep both PUFA lower, both Omega three and Omega six. And then if you were worried about inflammation, you could use something like aspirin or even a lot of the juices and fruits and things that we discuss, in general, have anti inflammatory effects and can inhibit those different enzymes, the Cox and lox enzymes. And then the other thing too to keep in mind is that omega three and Omega six are both extremely, extremely liable for lipid peroxidation, especially compared to monounsaturated and saturated fats. So even if omega threes do have that anti inflammatory effect through some type of inhibitory or competitive action at the the the Cox and lox enzymes that produce the the different inflammatory mediators, the eicosanoids, they still are liable to oxidation before they even get there. And actually just discussed a study the other day, I think, with Hans, where I was talking about how omega threes oxidize even in the digestive tract. And omega threes and Omega sixes were were oxidized, even if they weren't oxidized before. When they get into the digestive tract and they're exposed to stomach acid, bile acids, digestive enzymes, other food products, etc, they oxidize. So you're already getting oxidation products before they even make it to your bloodstream, even if you have the most pure krill oil in triglyceride form, or your your alpha linoleic acid flaxseed oil that you keep in the freezer with liquid nitrogen on the top so that it doesn't oxidize, whatever your the crazy mechanism is, as soon as you put in your mouth, there's going to be oxidation occurring from The those fatty acids. So you have an immunosuppressive effect. You have perhaps the inflammatory effect via inhibition or competition with Omega six at the specific enzymes, which can be also adjusted with the plant compounds that we discuss, in the fruits and also aspirin on a regular basis. Then you have the so that kind of defeats the purpose of that. Then you have the you have the Pro oxidative and lipid peroxidative effects of these fats, which should you technically want to avoid. And then you see, As Jay mentioned, that pro lipid, plural lipid peroxidation and oxidative effects, or reactive oxygen species producing effects inside the liver cells, where omega threes lower your production of LDL by damaging the I think it's lipoprotein b1 100, or creating an issue inside the endoplasmic Yeah, in, in creating, uh, April b1 100, yeah, or creating issues. Is inside the endoplasmic retilium reticulum as far as liver peroxidation goes for the exportation of cholesterol. And as you briefly mentioned, Jay cholesterol is a proxy marker for an issue, not actually, actually the issue. And that's kind of being more covered now in the research than it was before. And I again, the idea of the benefits of Omega threes come from the lipid hypothesis, which has over and over been discussed to not necessarily be reality. And even looking at some of the other compounds, I just talked about an article where statins, which lower cholesterol, can actually and through other various mechanisms, can increase risk of diabetes, heart failure and atherosclerosis. So the lipid hypothesis is kind of falling on its head based on the research that we've been looking at. And looking at it through that lens with omega threes isn't helpful either. So overall, there's just, could there be some anti inflammatory effects? Yes, but at what cost, and what are the mechanisms? And we discussed those before, and then there's some reasons there as well.

Jay Feldman 11:01
Yeah, and keeping the short term versus long term in mind, again, short term reduced inflammation, long term immunosuppression shift toward from th one to th two, which drives generally autoimmunity, and, you know, drives like the long term effects of these things, driving further inflammation and oxidative stress, even if, even if in the short term there's some, again, some short term anti inflammatory effects. Yeah, all right, on to the next so the reminder asks, and this is specifically for you, Mike, why do you eat a carrot with every meal? I thought the benefit was in eating it on an empty stomach. Are there other benefits and or reasons to eat it with a meal too? He says, excuse my ignorance. Genuinely asking, thank you.

Mike 11:44
Well, I am 50% rabbit. I don't know. So for me, I separate my meals. I think I've discussed this before, about three hours apart, because the migrating motor complex takes about three hours to work. There's a series of rhythmic contractions in the intestine. And so I found that I digest best with those breaks in between and having solid meals rather than snacking throughout the day. So that, just with that paradigm in general, it put the carrot salad with my meals, or I don't even do a carousel, I just eat the carrot. And what I found is like I like having the vegetable fiber with the meat and the different proteins I have, because I think it helps to manage the I've talked about this before, like the protein fermentation in the colon being problematic, so some of the vegetable fibers and compounds are helpful there. And then I feel like the carrot still has that effect, where it can pull things through, even if you're eating it with a meal. So I like my meal will be the fruit at the whole fruit I eat, the fruit smoothies, the juice, all that, with the carrot, and what other, whatever other vegetable I'm going to eat, and then also the the whatever protein I was going to eat, if it's whey protein, if it's eggs, if it's steak, if it's seafood, whatever those options are. I think having all of them together has been helpful, and then having the care with every meal keeps me regular. So I have a for me. I get maybe TMI for some people, but I have a bowel movement pretty much with each meal, as long as I'm not working in the hospital. So, and I think regularity for the bowels, like I know it's woo, woo and all this type of stuff. You know, from the modern medical perspective, it's not that important. But for me, like I think regular bowel movements are important, especially when you consider, you know, you whatever you have firm intent fermenting in the colon is you're having bacterial products produced depending on what you have going on in the microbiome, whatever it is there may be some toxic products there. So if you can keep your bowels moving on a regular basis. You can, kind of like you keep things moving through. You keep things you can minimize, perhaps some of your endotoxin exposure. And I think even Dr Pete has talked about this, where a dentist was able to clear some of his patients, like oral issues by giving them laxatives to keep their bowels moving within. The implication there was that the lack of bowels moving on a regular basis was causing some type of, maybe endotoxemia issue that was presenting with oral degradation, or, I guess, periodontitis. So I think, I guess, to summarize it and encapsulate it in an easy way, is I have whole meals all together. I don't snack all the time, so having the carrot salad would kind of break that have my four main meals a day. I like having the the vegetable fiber and the fruit fiber and the meat all together to protect against the future faction and the colon. And then the carrot salad helps it keep me regular, on a regular, like on a regular basis. And I think that that's important for bowel and general health overall, especially for me, because my main issues were always digestive. So I found that having it with each meal has been quite helpful. And then the other I guess, the last piece here to add in i is that the fibers from fruits and vegetables can help to bind up some of the bile acids. Since I don't have a gallbladder. I'll tend to leak bile acids all the time, or if I eat too much fat, I can get like a bile acid, huge bile acid release, which is really uncomfortable. And the vegetable fibers with a meal actually help to dilute that that bile acid and pull some of those bile acids out. And the pulling some of the bile acids out can be helpful, because the liver releases its toxins or excreted products in the bio assets. So you're going to want to, you know, you're going to want to have something to pull those, to pull those through.

Jay Feldman 15:28
Yeah, a lot of great points there. And of course, a lot of it, so many things you pointed to were individual things with you that that allow you to feel best, and again, partially due to some of your particular circumstances, along with this as well. You know, some people really like the carrot salad or carrot on its own. Some like it with food. It shouldn't, you know, when you have it with food, it should still be making it down, you know, through the colon and everything. It's not like that indigestible fiber, fiber would just get absorbed. So it should work, you know, just as well. Theoretically, with with food, and I don't know if there's any reason otherwise, I think some people, when they're doing the full carrot salad, it's shredded, you've got the oil and vinegar, some people find that to be a little filling, so I think that's part of the reason why they like to do it a little bit more away from food. But I think either way, should be about equal in terms of in terms of its effects, as long as you know, again, considering the individuality there, yeah.

Mike 16:23
If I had more time, I would make it, you know, I could make it into a little salad. So I could do, like, the shredded carrot, and then, like, if whatever cooked vegetables having, and then the protein and the juice on the side. Like, it kind of like a full, nice meal. But I don't have time now, so it's just, I literally, sometimes I don't even peel the carrot. I literally just bite the tip off and bite the back off and then throw it in the bag. And I have four of those, and that's I eat one with each of my protein shakes during the day in the hospital, because I have zero time to cook and prep. Some days, like, it's just too and I'm too tired a lot of times, so I have to make it easy and like, that's what it's come to now. But other times, like, I'll have the meal will start with some juice, and then maybe I can have my main protein source and all that with, like, the side of cooked vegetables that I like. And then I'll have maybe the carrot salad after with, uh, with a little bit of vinegar or a little bit of oil. Or maybe I'll do it before. So it's just, it depends on, you know, the context. There's a constant process of adapting to your circumstances and figuring out what works.

Jay Feldman 17:25
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Next question is from Polsky cabaret, he or she says, Jay and Mike, are you aware of Dr Sophia Clemens and the pavio ketogenic diet? She has real data from patients that she cured. She is also a neurobiologist. This was a comment on our last or one of our recent episodes with the nutrition with Judy article.

Mike 17:51
I think she's paleo medicinea.

Jay Feldman 17:56
Right, yeah. Paleo medicinea, yeah. So they have a clinic Bulgaria hungry somewhere in Europe, I want to say. And they talk about how they have a lot of clients and patients who have a ton of benefits from various chronic health disorders and issues through a paleo ketogenic diet. And we've talked about low carb, keto, Paleo diets ad nauseam, and there's a handful of episodes where we've talked about these things, and we've also, I did want to point out, and we've, I think pointed this out quite a bit as well, is that these things can have massive benefits, but they come at a cost, and we can get those benefits without those costs. I think some of those huge benefits come back, one to gut health and a huge reduction in endotoxin. And then the other major one being people who have trouble with glucose oxidation due to various blocks that are going on mitochondrial respiration do much better when they're forced to oxidize fat, as opposed to trying to inefficiently oxidize glucose. And so I think that's where you see a lot of the benefits neurologically, although the gut is also directly, directly involved there as well. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's one study in particular I know, looking at the ketogenic diet in mice and showing improvements for epilepsy, and finding that it was entirely a result of the gut effects. But again, I do think there's some benefits to moving away from inefficient glucose oxidation. But of course, the biggest point here is that you can do all of those things without the stress, the huge amount of stress caused by low carb diet. Yeah, something we talk about quite often. So that's really my main thoughts there.

Mike 19:35
Plus the diet that they're switching them from. Again, it's like the car, it's the same carnivore argument, right? You're coming from, like, a lot of times, from like, an absolute crap diet to going to a nutrient dense diet that includes organs and meats and some vegetables and plant some different plant foods and whatnot, and then just using your main source of energy as fat. The other thing I do know is like, well, they have, I have seen, um. Um, some discussion where some people did well with the diet, and they have some case studies, and I've seen the studies that they put out on some of their case studies, but other people have actually had poor, poor response from the diet, but that kind of got shoved under the carpet, I guess, a little bit. So I think your mileage is going to vary with the diet. And like, can that diet? Can those diets help somebody is a low carb paleo diet better than standard American diet? Yes, hands down. Like, if you're not going to be eating a whole bunch of, you know, cooked PUFA oils with industrial ingredients and whatnot, you're going to move towards more of like, a whole foods diet that has a bunch of different plants and mostly saturated, monounsaturated fats, and it's nutrient dense and has a quality animal products, and you're like, trying to avoid a lot of the toxic foods, like, are you going to feel better? Are you going to get better results? Yes. But as a spectrum, there's a great there's a gradation of options, like, if you were to add a little bit of fruit or juice to that, would it probably make the situation better and and lower the amount of fat? I think so. I think so that would make it better for a lot of people. I mean, there's a lot of studies showing the benefits of fruits and the compounds and fruits on numerous disorders as well. So like, yeah, are there some documented case for that, sure? But there's also a lot of research documenting beneficial effects from fruits as well. So I don't think that the solution there has is necessarily based around the lack of carbohydrates. I think it's based on a whole host of other meteors, mediators or confounding factors that are being adjusted as well. So it's hard to make a case like, oh, it's and I'm not saying that the commenter is saying this, but the it's like, because I think the perspective is, well, they're getting benefits with XYZ diet and but XYZ diet is focusing in on the idea that it's a lack of carbs, but it's it may not really be. The focus in on the lack of carbs, like the people who focus on hormesis, everything goes through the hormesis lens, whereas for the ketogenic people, it's everything goes through the low carb or lack of carb lens when it's like there's a lot of other things being adjusted there besides carbohydrates, carbohydrates are just things you're focusing on.

Jay Feldman 22:10
Yep, yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. And I will say also, you mentioned some of those situations and cases where things get swept under the rug that you know the immense improvement, you know, the cases where there's huge healing, you know, those are the ones that are advertised, and the ones where people don't do so well, of course, are not advertised. I did have a client come to me who had been on that diet, and I think it worked with with them, not 100% sure. You know, if you, if you had actually talked with them directly, but he was dealing with some binge eating disorders, some major mood struggles, anxiety and low mood and things like that. And yeah, was was feeling way better, not on the Paleo Mendocino diet, and felt like he had to be on the, you know, their paleo ketogenic diet to lose weight and things like that. But and felt like it was actually helping to keep things in check, like the binge eating disorder, but actually found that he was having way fewer cravings, feeling way more balanced, way better. His mood was way better when he was following a bioenergetic approach, as opposed to the Paleo ketogenic diet..So.

Mike 23:13
I think both of us have worked with clients who have come from multiple different backgrounds and who have I've also worked with people who worked with other, like prominent like coaches, like people who worked with, like, some very famous people, very YouTube stars and whatnot, who were following, whether it was carnivore or whether it was some chronic fatigue syndrome or some autoimmune protocol, who had worked, like, coached with some of These people, and they didn't do super well. And then, you know, we, like, we made some adjustments. And you know, a lot of times, coming from those diets, people have, people have a lot of stuff in place that's good, you know, like, they're eating high quality animal foods, they're avoiding grains, they're avoiding vegetable oils, they're avoiding foods that irritate them. And a lot of times what I know, what at least I do, is I just work from where they're at and increase carbohydrates, increase fruits, and then, you know, maybe manipulate the fat sources a little bit, and maybe adjust the protein amounts. But a lot of people coming from paleo, coming from keto, coming from carnivore, coming from vegetarianism or veganism, like those people are actually a lot of times easier to work with, in my experience, than somebody coming from a frank standard American diet, because these other people have already tried to implement a lot of different things, and are, like, very focused on making a difference for themselves, and they want to get better, and they already have, like, some good things on board, because there's elements in each of these diets that are beneficial, and there's some things that are problematic, and it's like, so you keep the beneficial things in place, they're already there, and then you make adjustments from that perspective. So that's a lot of times those like, they're actually a lot of people already made good steps, already, you know, if. You're coming from carnivore, and you're eating mostly saturated, monounsaturated fats. You're prioritizing organ meats. You're okay with eating different shellfish. You're eating decent quality red meat on a regular basis. Like, that's a good starting block to come from. Plus, you're already at an elimination diet. You've already eliminated everything. So, like, it's easy to add things in one at a time from that point and determine what's bothering you and what's not, because all you've been eating is steak. And the other thing too is like, if you can only eat steak, or you can only eat fruit, or you can only eat, you know, paleo, for like, a year straight, it the idea of, like, dietary restriction, like, it goes out the window to a large extent for for people like, that's like, I eat a steak for three years. Like, if you told me, all I could eat was orange juice and steak and carrots right now i That's like, three times as much varieties I've had for three years. So it's a lot of a lot of times people are coming from a good like, they can be coming from decent starting places when they've tried some of these different diets, because there are beneficial elements there, although there are some fad diets out there that are absolute crap, and I think make people a lot worse, but that's different story.

Jay Feldman 26:10
Yeah, yeah, you touched on the few points that I was, I was going to make where, while I do think there's a lot of issues with this sort of diet, I do actually find similar to you, again, working with people who have, who have been in those places, tends to be easier, and part of that, as you said, is maybe because of the place that they're in with the diet, although I think sometimes it can take them steps backward, sometimes pretty deep, especially if they've been doing it for a really long time. However, as you said, one of the things that makes it much easier is that this, these are people who are comfortable with not eating a standard American diet. They're comfortable with making dietary changes. They're people who are very involved in their health and who are constantly working to improve and are very committed, and I think that that does tend to lead to much better results regardless. So I think that, yeah, that's that's a huge piece of it, but yeah, some of that is despite the diet, rather than because of the diet, and just kind of comes with the territory. But as we said, there can be some benefits from the diet, but those long term costs especially add up over time. So when somebody's been on that diet for a long time, then that can, you know, sometimes take some time to dig out of that hole.

Mike 27:15
Yeah, I also congratulate people who go on these diets and try to change their lifestyle, instead of just get, like, getting handed a drug for whatever their situation is, and not taking responsibility for their health, because I think a big piece in any person's journey, or whatever you want to call it, whatever, whatever the feel good term, I don't know, whatever you term you want to use a lot of that is About taking responsibility for your health and seeking out information and trying to figure out what works and beginning to test instead of handing your health, your health off to somebody else. And this doesn't mean that you can't get help, but there's a difference between having somebody do something for you versus going to somebody to, you know, discuss something with you or or anything along those lines

Jay Feldman 28:03
Yeah, no, that's a great point too, absolutely.

All right, so we're going to continue with some lightning round questions again, trying to keep them short, or at least as short as we can with our normally long winded answers, and see if we can get through a bunch of these again, as I was mentioning in the as I mentioned previously, these are questions from YouTube, or sometimes they're sent in, but just, or not only questions on YouTube, but some of them are just comments as well, but it's just hard to they're nearly impossible to get back to all the comments on social media and all the emails and everything. So this is a way to at least get through some of them quickly and share the answers with with all of you guys so that, uh, it can hopefully help more people out. So with that in mind, Noga says or asks, Which coral calcium supplement is recommended, which does not contain heavy metals? So normally, my go to here, which I think I got from you. Mike, was pure bulk. They have a good coral calcium. And if you are concerned about the quality, you can ask them for a COA, once you have the, I think the lot number and and they'll give that to you so you can confirm that there's that there's not a significant amount of heavy metals.

Mike 29:16
Yeah. So pure bull is the Okinawa one. And there's a company in Okinawa that I actually reached out to with a with a friend to try and figure out what the, you know, we were thinking of like releasing our own coral calcium supplement, because it, I think it's been quite helpful overall, for quite a for many people that I've worked with who don't tolerate eggshell or dairy. So we reached out to them, and at the Okinawan coral calcium is pretty clean overall. The other one that I recommend, or was using for a while, was the Eco pure one. So that one's from the coral calcium there's extracted from the Caribbean. And those ones, I didn't get a full breakdown on the heavy metals for now, the thing. About coral calcium, or the calcium supplementation in general, is when you have a high amount of calcium, it does inhibit the absorption of a lot of the other of the other heavy metals. So that's something to keep in mind when you're using a calcium supplement. And then as far as the as far as the coral goes with the coral calcium, they're taking in and filtering out and basically integrating that calcium with multiple other minerals and many other ways. So I think it's probably cleaner in general than like a limestone, like a pure calcium carbonate, which is just mined. So I now there's may still, like with the oyster shells, they do accumulate some of the other metals. But the other thing to keep in mind is that the coral calcium from both of these companies is above ground coral calcium. So it's, it's coral from, you know, hundreds of years ago, usually that was that had pulled up the minerals and whatnot. They don't harvest it from the ocean directly. So my assumption there is that the the amount of heavy metals would probably be decreased as well because of the lack of pollution during the time periods when that coral was actually forming, versus the coral that we have going on now. So again, the Okinawan one, I know is pretty clean because I like looked and just like reached out to the company, but the Caribbean one. I haven't ever heard back from the company. So, and that was even because we were trying to see if we could source from them, and they would just never responded to requests or calls or anything like that.

Jay Feldman 31:34
And for reference, for anyone who is not aware, coral is alive, it's an animal. And so that's what you were saying, as far as it filtering out any potential, or potentially helping to filter out heavy metals, like is talked about with some other calcium sources, like dairy, like milk, where that's coming through a cow, where the cow is filtering, basically filtering what's coming through that milk to make sure that it's not passing on harmful things to its offspring.

Mike 32:00
So to a large extent, I mean some things in oysters and coral and cows and eggs, eggshells, they do get through, but I think that your your risk is decreased, versus like a calcium, like a limestone, where you're literally just mining pure rock,

Jay Feldman 32:17
Right, right? There's no filtering going on by the rock.

Mike 32:22
No, not at all.

Jay Feldman 32:25
All. Right, next question. This must have been on one that we were talking about. I think it was a previous Q and A maybe, that we were talking about people dealing with teeth issues from sugar consumption and what you can do about it, how you can prevent it. So Andrew says, love the video. I've had a ton of tooth decay from sugar consumption. I can reserve fruit juices for the morning. Have have breakfast, lunch and dinner. However, I go out socializing in the evenings, up to five hours. I've major stress problems, which I've been able to control with the carbs. I bring jars of olive oil, collagen protein and OJ slash, mineral water with raw honey and salt, and that seems to prevent falling into high adrenaline slash cortisol state. What can I do to keep my stress down while giving my mouth a break from sugar? So just for reference, we were talking about some things in that episode, like rinsing your mouth after having juices or sugary foods, or even just after a meal, as well as trying to have your food with a meal, as opposed to just sipping juice throughout the day, things like that. And so what I would say here, I mean a couple of things. One is that minimizing that stress state is of utmost importance. And so I would try to do what you can to do so. And if you're having a drink that is sugar based, like with the orange juice and honey, in order to do that, that's fine. I would probably just, you know, I'm assuming this isn't something that's happening that frequently. I mean, this person's mentioning socializing in the evenings. I don't know if that's like an everyday thing or just once or twice during the week, but on a couple of times that that happens if you just rinsed with the mineral water or regular water after that, should help to mitigate any of those negative effects from the juice or or honey, if, again, if your teeth are particularly sensitive, and you need to be concerned about that. So that'd be one thing I would think of. You know, yeah, it's gonna be tough when you need food on the go. But, you know, until you might have to make some of those choices, but as long as you're doing things in general to help with your dental health, all the things we talked about in that last episode, or that episode when we discussed it, that should be enough to mitigate, you know, one night where, where things are a little bit off.

Mike 34:38
So I would, I would bring a I would bring a smoothie that has fruit juice and whole fruit in it, and then the other thing you could throw in there is calcium and magnesium with the fruit juice and whole fruit in the smoothie, so that will those are protective of your teeth. They help to buffer the acids, and then the polyphenols and the fiber inside the fruit actually help to inhibit tooth decay. Okay overall, and also the adjustments in the microbiome are important. The other thing I would do is I would make sure that you have like, instead of just having fruit juicer that regularly like, have that with a meal. So I know perhaps not perfect with the smoothie, should probably cause less issues overall with the addition of those things. But I would try to avoid, like, sipping any of the juices throughout the day. Maybe just have a meal when you go out. So bring a smoothie with you. Maybe you can throw some whey protein in there, because the protein, specifically, I think we talked about in that podcast, there's the hypothalamic pituitary parotid axis. And so the protein actually stimulates that release of the so or induces the prod again to stimulate that saliva release, which helps to remineralize the teeth. So I would do that. The other thing that I think could be really helpful that I've been doing lately is I have a like a Xylitol based gum from a company called Spry, and I like the cinnamon one. That's the one I use so I chew that after meals. The there's multi fold benefits to it. So the Xylitol helps to inhibit biofilm formation on the teeth from streptococcus mutants, and then the chewing helps to stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system, to enhance digestion and whatnot. So those would be the general strategies that I would use and again. So overall, to protect your teeth, I was going to recap, but it's already short, so I'll leave it at that.

Jay Feldman 36:23
Cool. Yeah, and just two kind of additions I'll make to your suggestions. One, when it comes to the smoothie or fruit in general, it's really important that it's ripe. So unripe fruit, for example, like orange juice that's sour, is going probably going to be worse for your teeth than, like, not having anything, whereas, like a ripe, good quality fruit, can, you know, be the opposite, as you're saying, the polyphenols, the fibers and on from there can be really helpful. So it's important that it's ripe. And sometimes, when you're doing, like, when you're just getting the fruit from, you know, the freezer, it's not always ripe. So you just want to make sure you're getting good quality, getting it organic. Normally it's better quality, freezing it yourself, getting the fruit pulp, whatever it is, but make sure that it's good quality when you're doing that. And, yeah, the Xylitol gum could be helpful. I don't remember you mentioned the Spry I know when I was looking at in the past, I remember there being something in the Spry gum that I didn't like, some ingredient, so I went with either pure P, u, r, they have gum and they they also have, like, an off another, like, type of gum within that brand, which I think is called five or something. It's like, it's, it's like, 3456, something like that has to do with however many ingredients are in there. I don't remember if it's, I think five was like a different commercial one, but, yeah, I'll see if I can find it. Maybe I'll put it in notes.

Mike 37:37
Yeah, the other thing I want to add too is, he mentioned olive oil. He was having olive oil. So with his with the smoothie, a smoothie option for him that he could do if he tolerates whey protein, he or if it's not cow whey protein, you could try a goat whey from Mount Capra. But he could do the goat whey, the frozen fruit, the juice, and then in order to have some fats in there, because you mentioned the olive oil, you can put in some cream, if you tolerate cream well, and it's actually like strawberry banana cream, and whey is actually a really tasty smoothie. Or you can do something with like whey, coconut water, macadamia nuts. I know I said maple syrup is not ideal, but it makes it a little better, and then some cinnamon.

Jay Feldman 38:15
Yep, yep, all good options. And of course, it might be tough if someone's like out partying or something to get a to get a meal in. But if they're bringing in drinks and whatever, then a smoothie would work. And I found it, it's, it's called three, and it's by, it's still by pure that gum. So yeah, five, I think, is like a can, like a typical, like bad gum. But yeah, it's called Three.

Mike 38:36
They used to have those crazy commercials. They were insane. The five gum, the five gum commercials, yeah, they were like these, like these, like goth, like dark commercials, but, like, it was about sensory aspects of the gum. Okay, so they can't remember that, yeah, and if, by the way, with the maple syrup, um, with the maple syrup and, uh, cinnamon and macadamia nut and, uh, coconut water and whey protein, you probably can put some coffee in there and throw a little rum in there, and it probably tastes good if you're going out, although alcohol is not advised, but you never know.

Jay Feldman 39:15
Yeah, yeah, and I remember what I was gonna say before, with the whole it's tough to be getting a meal in, you were still saying, like, it can be helpful, even if you're not getting a meal, to just condense the amount of time that you're having the juice or smoothie or whatever to a short window, as opposed to sipping it throughout the night, which is, I think, an important point, whether you're having the juice or the smoothie, just have it at one point, you know, a few hours in or something, and then rinse after. And that way you're not constantly exposing your teeth and they have time to remineralize and, you know, interact with the saliva and all that. Yeah, yep, exactly. Okay, all right, along the calcium lines, maybe along the teeth lines. I'm not sure if all these questions were from the same episode, but mon cheese 777 asks, What about orange juice with adding added calcium as a dairy all. Alternative. And so I would, you know, we talked about coral calcium being a good option here, I would probably lean toward just adding coral calcium as needed, as opposed to trying to get it all from an orange juice with added calcium due to quality issues, being able to control the dose better and things like that.

Mike 40:18
The or the calcium in orange juice is usually, I think, calcium phosphate. So when you're when you when you're working with calcium, or you're trying to use calcium, the goal is to balance phosphate. So if you're taking in an extra phosphate with the calcium like, with the calcium phosphate, like, it's almost a bit counterproductive. And the calcium carbonate, which is what you see inside coral calcium and whatnot, or eggshell calcium is doesn't have that extra phosphorus. So I would buy your own juice, and then I would add the coral calcium, and then you could put magnesium, and depending on your diet, maybe a little bit of zinc in there. And you could have that on a regular basis. Or you could mix the juices, whatever the deal is. And then, though, the coral, the calcium carbonate can, depending on how what juice you're using, like, grape juice isn't as acidic as orange juice, but it can, um, it can, like, create, like, a carbonation effect, which I like a lot. So...

Jay Feldman 41:16
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And the I do think some of them will use calcium citrate as well. But again, that's not ideal either. We've talked about the problems with the citrate part there, where they're getting the citric acid from, from mold oftentimes. So yeah, I would just choose. I would just basically make it yourself, as opposed to choosing that option. Yep, agreed. All right. Next question from gratitude, what tests would show if the extra weight is a metabolic issue, rather than just glycogen slash water storage, then what to do to correct the metabolic issue? Thank you. So this must have been an episode where we were discussing maybe water weight being gained after low carb, or just weight loss in general, something like that. But part of the reason why I wanted to bring up this question is because we've pointed to increases in water and glycogen being something that can account for some weight gain when you're coming from a low calorie, low carb diet, you know, keto, carnivore, all those things. But I want to be clear that that's only going to be a few pounds, maybe up to about five pounds or so, depending on your body size. This is not something that's accounting for 1015, 2025, pounds of weight. That's not glycogen, that's not water. It can be swelling. I mean, it could be water, but just not water in the muscles. It could be swelling and inflammation. It could be body fat. It could be food weight and other things too, but at that point you're probably gaining a decent amount of body fat. And so I wouldn't want to just blame that all on glycogen or water storage. One of the ways you can tell is, I mean, if it's done slowly, it's hard to tell, right? If this is something that's accumulating over several days, it might be hard to tell, but normally, the glycogen and water weight is something that will come on quickly. And so if you're gaining a couple pounds overnight, 2345, pounds in a couple of days, that's not body fat, that's most likely to be water weight, food weight, maybe some glycogen storage as well. So the speed with which it's coming on will probably be the best indicator. If you're not, like, doing some body fat testing, or you can't tell based on just like looking at your at your body, so that's going to be from my from my view, the clearest indicator. But if you're continuing to gain, especially at a slower or steadier rate, then I would be considering some metabolic factors, and as well as as far as what to do to correct that metabolic issue, it depends on what the metabolic issue is. You know, this is something I would go back to the weight loss series, which was episode started with episode 10, and then, so I was 1011, 12, and then we did another episode on weight loss. I think it was like somewhere 3738 about the physiology of fat loss. I'll include all those in the show notes, but there's a lot of factors that can cause weight loss. If it was as simple as just here's the metabolic like, here's how you fix the metabolic issue, then it would be really easy and simple. And you know, there wouldn't be much to discuss, but everything from PUFA to gut issues, nutrient deficiencies, other aspects of lifestyle, poor sleep, excess stress, not enough movement and on from there. I mean, there's, you know, also just ex you know, hypothyroidism, over time, is severely depressed metabolism, which especially can happen if you're coming from a hypochloric diet or or a hypocarbo Hydrate diet. So yeah, a lot of things to consider there, I would look back at those weight loss episodes as far as correcting the metabolic issue.

Mike 44:29
Yeah, I don't think so. There is tests you can do to see so you can do like a hydrostatic weighing, or any of those types of body fat percentage or body composition tests, and then they have, like, the bioelectrical impedance stuff. But I don't think that that's like you'd have to do it, like, before and after, yeah, and you'd have to do it with a lab. It's not like they have the scales that you do, that you can do at home. I don't know how accurate those are, compared to, like, actually going to the lab, and there's one of the. Is called a bod pod, which we talked about that we had done. But I don't think that those, I don't think it's necessary to go that route, kind of, as you were implying, Jay, it's like you get if you're gaining, like, a cut, like five pounds, 510 pounds in the beginning. You know that's, that's kind of normal over a period of time. But if, especially coming from, like, very low carb and being the way you describe it in like the bodybuilding spheres, like being flat, so your muscles are flat, they're kind of lower in glycogen. But after that, if you're still gaining then I don't think you need to have a test to determine that that's not necessarily glycogen and water weight. You're probably gaining body fat. And then I would, in that situation, I would start to look at what's going on with your diet, because I don't think like coming out the gate of low carb and keto and carnivore. If you're gonna start eating fruit and like, fruit smoothies and juice and things like that, there you should be putting on, like, tons and tons of body weight, unless you have, like, something more specific going on. What that could be is dependent upon the individual. But if you're going to come out the gate and you're starting to incorporate heavy amounts of dairy and ice cream and, like, sugared milk and all that type of stuff, and you're gaining weight, then I think that, like, it's most likely diet related, and it's not that those foods are bad for you, per se. It's just that they have a tendency to put weight on people, especially coming out of that low carb carnivore keto period. And that was something that I noticed, and that's something that I see with, like, quite a few different people, like a lot of clients that I work with, so I would really start to take a look at your diet. I there's this perspective in the sphere that I'm not a huge fan of, where it's like this all in like, you just need to keep eating, and your metabolic rate will eventually catch up, and then you'll start to lose weight. I have never seen that be the case in the sense that you just, like, if you're gaining weight, and you just keep eating and keep eating more, keep eating more, and then the weight just all of a sudden starts to come off. Most times, people that I work with that follow that approach will gain the weight, keep gaining the weight, and then at the back end, be like, Why am I gaining weight? I my metabolism should be increasing, and so you need to adjust the foods that you're eating. It's like your metabolism doesn't endlessly increase, um, for the amount of food that you're eating. Now, to be fair, there is nuance here, where you're coming out of some of those periods, or you're severely underweight and whatnot. There may be a period of time where you overshoot with weight, and you have, you have to eat in excess of calories, and then things can resettle. But I would say that that's not necessarily the rule, I think that's the exception. So I would be very careful with those situations, and I would start to adjust and look at your diet and what you have going on overall, I don't think there's an there's like an endless capability to keep eating, and your metabolism just increases, and then you're super skinny, or you start to lose that body fat. So I think I'd be careful with those perspectives, because they can be a bit dangerous, and I've seen it dangerous from a weight perspective. Then I've seen that with quite a few clients,

Jay Feldman 48:09
Yeah, and I would say that's especially true for the population that's already not lean coming in. So if you were already doing all your dieting, and you're not lean, and then you go into a refeeding, and then you just expect that the weights gonna probably come down after it goes up for a little while. Normally, I would agree, I don't see that being the case. And you have to look at, or it's best, you know, then look at what kind of foods are you eating? What other problems are there? What kind of you know, what kind of holes are there to fill? Where might we be taking some missteps? Normally, I would say you don't want to be like 10 to 15 pounds being gained is, is pretty normal, maybe even 10 to 20, depending on where you're coming from and what it's like. And so I wouldn't necessarily look at that as a problem if it's if you're feeling better and having a ton of benefits up to that point. But you know, and like you know, 10 to 15 if you're slightly smaller body size, and maybe a little bit more if you're if you're larger, but Yeah, normally it is a situation where other things need to be addressed in order to see the weight loss. And the reason why I'm saying it that way is because for us, for example, who are people who are coming into pro metabolic with issues, but with but being generally lean and pretty muscular, we gained weight. Initially. We basically had a massive refeeding period, and then, you know, gained some weight. We did make some adjustments, but then the weight came down, and it wasn't because we were just eating less, like we were still eating a lot, when our weight was coming down and we were leaning out. And there was intricacies there. We did make some shifts as far as the foods that were coming in. Initially, we were much higher on the starch because we were very afraid of fructose, you know, understandably so coming from the low carb space, as many people are, and so that was part of it as well, and some gut issues and things. But I would say for the large part, I think for us, it was one of those things where it was largely kind of a refeeding and recalibrating, and then it, you know, and our weight jumped up. 2025, pounds or so, and then came back down.

Mike 50:03
But it was necessary. It was, I think the weight gain for us was necessary. Because when we were doing the low carb and fasting and all that stuff, our body fat percentages had been under 10% for years doing that stuff under 8% Yeah, which was like six, 7% Yeah, when we had the veins all up on my on I remember, like, just having veins off of my belly, and it's being, like, extremely lean and not feeling good, not feeling good. So like that 20 pounds of weight gain or more that we had put on was, like, needed now, definitely overshot, because the the calories, like I remember, was like 30 pounds in like two months.

Jay Feldman 50:41
Yeah, from that low when, yeah, from the point where you were seeing ABS on your veins, I think it was up, what, 45 pounds from there, or 40 pounds like that, yeah, that was a low, for sure, but it was too thin at that point.

Mike 50:53
And I was six to 170 pounds, versus moving up to being, you know, six to 220 pounds. 220 was too high, but 201 90 was like adequate. So there was an overshoot. But I was also, both of us were almost at that level, and we were pounding, you know, ridiculous numbers of calories in that refeeding phase after. And we it's not that we were low calorie eating before, it's that we were exercising and then low carb eating, which was a bad combination, especially with the like, how much exercise, with the power lifting and bodybuilding and gymnastics training all together, and then trying to do sprints and yoga and whatever else, it was, like an absurd amount of activity.

Jay Feldman 51:35
Yeah, it was, yeah, we we were biking everywhere, like we didn't have cars and we lived off campus. So we were biking to all of our classes, and when we biked, we biked, it wasn't like a casual bike, like...

Mike 51:45
High intensity.

Jay Feldman 51:48
Yeah, normally because we were pretty late for our classes, or because we forgot plantains in oven and had to bike back really quickly.

Mike 51:56
I wonder who did that?

Jay Feldman 51:58
Yeah, me too.

But this actually ties directly into another question that I wasn't going to get to next, but we might as well. It's from Ryan Huber, who said there's Huber, and he said, when you said you were struggling to get in enough calories eating five to 6000 calories per day, were you playing a sport at the time with a very active lifestyle, five to 6000 seems to be on the very high end, even by high level athlete standards. Also just curious as to how many calories you eat compared calories you eat comparatively now versus then. Thank you for the episode. Very insightful. And yeah, so at this time, when we were doing, when we were eating that five to 6000 calories a our body weight, we were between 202 25 you know, kind of in that range. That was kind of we were eating that much on the way up to about 220 ish, and then also back on the way down to, you know, hover, I think I ended up landing around 205 I don't remember where you land. I was about the same down.

Mike 52:48
I was about 200 when I, when I stopped eating eight plantains a day.

Jay Feldman 52:54
Well, I just mean more of like, when my... like, I don't, I don't think I was eating any less when I came down to 205 that was just where I was lean, like, as lean as I would have wanted to be, like, you know, it's pretty lean at that point. You know, we gained a good amount of muscle as well during our refeed and power lifting and all that. But, yeah, I mean, we were still eating. So I remember when I was at that 205 mark. And we've talked about this before, you know, when talking about our our health journeys. But I remember at that point, and I think this is what Ryan was referring to here, is that I know for me, I had to be so on top of my of getting food in, or else it would be a disaster, like I would have to prep, like 16 plus ounces of orange juice with collagen and sugar and the same amount of milk with collagen and sugar the night before so that I could wake up and eat it right away, because I was starving when I would wake up. And if I didn't get that food in soon enough, I wouldn't digest it soon enough to be able to have the next meal, you know, however much later where I needed to get that in while I was making breakfast, and I had to have my breakfast on time, or else I wouldn't be able to eat enough, and then I would have to overeat later, and that wouldn't feel as good and kind of on from there. And we had super high needs, and part of it was because we were large body size. Part of it was because we were biking everywhere. We were also lifting at the time. And also, I mean, we were like 21 at this time, so I think those kinds of things, and we were doing everything else, right? We were in the sun a lot. We were generally active. I was also doing Muay Thai at this time. As you mentioned, we were doing yoga around this time as well. Like we were just mixing in a lot of activity, and we were getting good sleep. You know, we were, like, sleeping throughout the night, like all these things that were keeping our metabolism pretty high. Also, the other thing I mentioned here is that I think a lot of high level athletes are, or, quote, unquote, should be, eating that much when we look back at something like the Minnesota starvation experiment, and see that people who are weighing on average, 150 to 160 pounds in their 20s, and like they were maintaining their weight at 3300 calories a day. So if you have an athlete who's 180 190 200 plus pounds, and is way more active, and like the. And they should be eating considerably more than that, 3300 and so I think the vast majority of people, athletes and non athletes, are under eating by like compared to what they could be. And I think it's a huge problem, and it's part of the reason why you see so many negative health effects in a lot of those high level athletes and deterioration and things. So

Mike 55:20
Yeah,I mean, I feel like during that time I was, at least, specifically for me, I was doing the powerlifting, like, five or six days a week, with bodybuilding training as accessory exercises, and then you were doing Muay Thai, but I was doing Jiu Jitsu, and I was like, going to the jiu jitsu gym in college. Yeah. I was like walking from our house, the first house in our sophomore year, and going to doing BJJ...

Jay Feldman 55:46
Yeah. I was thinking, like junior senior year even,

Mike 55:49
Even in junior senior year, though I was even when I so I got, I was doing the the bodybuilding stuff, but then I was also doing hand balancing. So it was like bodybuilding. So it was like two a day trainings, almost. And then we were also, again, we were biking. So it was like we were doing a couple miles a day minimum on the bike, going back and forth to campus, and then going to whole foods.

Jay Feldman 56:11
Like a few miles each way, I think. And we would do that sometimes multiple times, go to grocery store or wherever else.

Mike 56:16
Yeah. So there's like, an exorbitant amount of activity. And then, coming from that restricted background, I remember, like, the when we first started having carbs, we, like, binged for a couple months. And the other thing for me is I couldn't like the carbs again. We were afraid of fructose, and I was trying to do plantains and, like, I couldn't digest starches extremely well, but I was slamming six to eight, so I don't know how well it was like, like, I my digestion wasn't perfect at that time, either, but I think that, I think that at that larger size, so comparatively, right now, I'm at 205 pounds, my body fat is probably around 16% so I'm not like as lean as I was just a couple months ago, but I kind of feel better overall at this weight, and I'm still maintaining in the 3000 like, 3500 calories a day. That's where I'm currently maintaining my weight. If I start to drop, I'll dip a little bit in weight and whatnot. So there's still a like, even at my current size, I still think that there's a requirement for a decent amount of calories. The other thing is, I'm still exercising on a regular basis, so I still exercise like almost six days a week. But again, the exercise is different. It's just straight bodybuilding stuff. It's not super taxing. There's a decent amount of rest, and I'm used to it. I've been doing it for I've been lifting for years, so I don't have a problem with the amount of volume that I'm doing, and I also know how to adjust it based on what I'm feeling and what I have going on. So I do think that. And if you run calorie calculators with the amount of activity that I'm currently doing, and then my current body size, that is actually where I would land, is about that in that 3000 to 4000 calorie range based on my activity level. So that is something to keep in mind. And then also we were when we were bodybuilding or powerlifting in college and whatnot. We were trying to gain weight during that period from where we were. So keep in mind we were trying to eat in a surplus as well. It wasn't just like we're eating 4000 5000 calories to like main stay at our same weight it was we were eating 4000 5000 calories to come out of being super restrictive while still having a high energy level and trying to put on more lean body mass overall. So now I wouldn't necessarily recommend that somebody goes about it the same way that we did, or at least that I did with all the plantains and whatnot, because that actually led to gut issues for me. Now I would adjust how I would do that after going through that process, and like, choose foods that specifically work for your system, and figure those out systematically, and then increase calories in a slow, concerted fashion. But at that point, it was just like we had been restricted for so long. That was like anything goes, like, I'm just hungry. I need to eat. I'm doing all this stuff and like, I just, like, human garbage, garbage can, just like, slamming food in. Now, the food that we were eating was good. It wasn't like we were going out and getting, like, donuts and whatever else, like, just straight junk food and chips. It was more like Whole Foods that we were preparing, which also makes a little bit harder, because, like, plantains and yams are pretty filling, and then you can get, like, like, a lot of bloating and gas if you eat a ton of those fibers. So that's something to keep in mind as well. So yeah, I'm still, I guess, to answer the question, I'm still at a high caloric intake. Can based on, you know, what, from what normal people would consider, like, they would say 3000 to 4000 calories as high based on my body size and my activity level, it actually is completely within normal limits. And then that time frame had multiple factors going on that led to the higher caloric intake. So I think that the within there were some issues with like I was definitely. Closer to 20% body fat at 4000 to 5000 calories. I'm not like, that wasn't necessarily lean, so that is something to keep in mind.

Jay Feldman 1:00:09
So I know it's been, like, obviously it's been a while since that time. We're talking seven years ago or whatever. Yeah, I so I know it was different for me. I don't know if you like so I know for me, when we gained that weight, we were eating that much, but it was really high starch. For me, I remember that we switched the foods from, you know, to way lower amounts of starch. You know, instead of getting 600 to 800 calories, grams of carbs a day from starch, we, you know, we got a lot more from sugars, dried fruits, things like that, and fresh fruits and juices as opposed to just starches. I think I know for me at least, I still had some starches coming in. That was the point when I leaned out, but I was still eating the same amount. I was still having milk as well, and a lot of milk. And I know I leaned out at that time, still eating that much, because I remember, you know, certain instances being at that leaner limit, or, like, leaner body, uh, mass, or body fat, body composition, and neat, like, really struggling to get enough food in and, like, still really pounding it. So I don't know if that was, I don't know if, if our trajectories just didn't line up there, or if you were actually eating less when you came down and were leaner. But for me, I remember just changing the foods really made a huge difference, plus getting out of the refeeding stage, which for me, wasn't that we were eating even more before, but rather just that, of like when your body's in a hypometabolic state from from hypo caloric and low carb eating, then bringing a ton of food and led to the weight gain, but then kind of balanced out from that standpoint as well. So I know for me, I was still eating that much and leaned out. But I don't know if that was different for you, so that was kind of one thing. I have a couple other things to mention, but maybe I don't know if you want to...

Mike 1:01:49
I didn't lean out until I stopped doing dairy, but so I still had a high caloric intake. But when I was doing dairy like I didn't, my body didn't handle it well at all. I think you handled dairy much better than I did. So when I stopped dairy, I, like, immediately leaned out, even though my caloric intake stayed the same, and I just switched to, like, muscle meats and so seafood and beef things like that,

Jay Feldman 1:02:12
Right? Yeah, so you were still eating high calorie, like, higher than you are now, and you and you were leaning on it.

Mike 1:02:17
Yes, as soon as the dairy thing was crazy, because as soon as I stopped drinking cow's milk and eating cheese and things like that, within like, within like, a month, I just straight lost 20 pounds, like, just like, fell off, I would feel like I it all out, and that was, like, a very rapid weight loss. But I didn't like I was now I still, like, had a large amount of muscle mass, so I just like felt less. I guess puffy is the is the easiest way to describe it. And then I eventually tried dairy again, but as goat milk and goat milk didn't make me gain as much body weight. And again, I was still eating a large amount of calories. I was still over 3000 calories, easily. And I but I also got extremely strong on goat milk. So I remember being in the gym. And like, using Hammer Strength machines, like the the press, like a hammer strength press, if anyone's familiar with that, I was, like, putting up four plates, no problem. And then so, like, the the milk made me feel strong. But again, I still, like, wasn't lean. Like I got less lean doing that. And then when I just hopped off dairy again, I was, I was I leaned out again. So for me, staying off dairy keeps me lean even with the higher caloric intake.

Jay Feldman 1:03:27
Yeah, yeah. And then, just to mention a couple other things, I know you were talking about the calorie calculator. I know, for me at and for a lot of clients I see as well, I don't know, I take a lot more issue with using those calorie calculators. I feel like they like sometimes they're going to be right. You know, broken clocks right twice? What is it twice a day? But I've found I've seen clients who are gaining weight eating way less than the calorie calculator says. I've seen clients who are losing or maintaining weight eating way more than calorie calculator says. And I just think it's fine for getting estimates, but I think there are so many other factors going in that I I don't, I think it's just way oversimplified, and so I don't like, I don't like just pointing to that as as something that, uh, that can actually account for all the variables and should give you an accurate indication. And I know that, especially at this time. And I can't say now, and I'll get to this in second. But I don't know what my current calorie intake is, but I know it many times in the past for me, I was eating considerably more than the calorie calculator would, like, said that I should have been able to Yeah.

Mike 1:04:34
I mean, the calorie count, are you talking about it with like activity included, like the activity multiplier, yeah, I don't know I like it. I think it's a helpful baseline for a lot of people to start out for, like, especially if you have, you take somebody straight off the bat, they don't even know what they're doing, and then you use, like, the cash McArdle formulas, the one I use, which determines it based on lean body mass, because some of the calorie calculator. Formulas are crap. But I do like the catch McArdle one for baseline to start. I think that it is helpful to be like, this is a ballpark of where we're trying to be at, or where you should should be at. And then it gives you like, you can then you can kind of determine from there with somebody, because you can see, okay, you're eating less and you're still gaining weight, so you definitely have some stuff going on, or you're able to eat more and and you're, like, losing weight, and that depends, you know, again, there are, I've definitely have those situations as well. When I'm first starting with somebody, I like to use that, because I have some people come to me at like, 1200 calories a day, and I'm just like, you know, large, much larger body sizes. I'm just like, this is, this is crazy.

Jay Feldman 1:05:40
Yeah, yeah. So I think it's helpful as, like, a tool, or is like a reference point, right, where someone's eating so much less, and you look at that and you're like, Okay, there's probably a bit of a discrep, like, there's a reason for this sort of discrepancy. So I think it's really helpful for that. Normally, I'm I'm using what somebody's currently maintaining their weight at as, like the as, like an actual place to work from, as opposed to what the equation says. And I know you're saying this too, right? If someone's coming in on 1200 calories a day, and the calorie calculator says they should be able to eat 2000 and maintain your weight their weight, you're not just putting them on 2000 calories. You're adjusting other factors so they can hopefully get to that point, right, right? So it's helpful as a reference value, but I do think the fact that we're seeing such discrepancies points out how limited it is. And I'll even the the kind of more accurate measures, like I've had clients who use the Fitbits and things where it measures their, you know, they know their body fat, they know their body weight, and it's measuring all their activity and estimating their calorie expenditure and everything. And, you know, they're can. They're like I've seen, there's a particular client I'm thinking of, but I've seen the same pattern with a lot, where they're maintaining the rate on at least, like, an average of 1000 calories less per day than the Fitbit says. And so I think there's some real limitations there, and that's really helpful information, because this person was very hypothyroid, and it was a good indication that, hey, it's not your problem here. Isn't that you're eating too little. There's other issues we need to resolve. But yeah, so yeah, I think it's a helpful tool. Just want to be careful as far as using that as like, a number that we should then eat just based on whatever it says.

Mike 1:07:12
Yeah, yeah. I have, if I have a client who's eating more and losing weight than the calorie calculator, I don't then move them to that value. Or if I have a client who's eating less and is gaining weight, I don't then move them to that value I do like to hit. I What's more important to me than calories is looking at macro intakes. So I do use the macro targets, but again, I adjust those base like you have to see where the person's at, and you have to see what the targets are, and then you have to see what you have to do to kind of hit those depending on, you know it. They give you they give you references. You have a target to work with, instead of just shooting blankly in the air. So that's what, that's what they're helpful for. They're not like they're not straight jackets or set in stone rules. And I think that that's confusing for a lot of people. And, you know, and when I work with somebody, it's the first thing that I kind of talk about with them when I go through those values. But it's just, it gives you an empirical set of numbers that you can say, Okay, we're gonna, like, we have some point of reference, and that's, that's the most important piece for those and again, like, if you have somebody coming from low carb, and you the other thing is, you're looking at their chronometer, you're looking at what they're doing on a regular basis, and then you're like, taking all of that into account. So there's multiple factors to put into play there, but I again, I think they're important for point of reference, and they help you make adjustments, and then they also help you gage progress, because you have somebody coming at 1200 you changed your most times what I see. And I even have clients like this right now, they're coming in at 1500 calories, and they're they're gaining weight. And then we change their food sources. We change up macro composition, we change up how they're structuring the meals, etc. And then they're getting hungry or eating more and still maintaining or possibly losing weight, depending on what they have going on. And it's just by changing up those sources. So that's a like, that's kind of what I want to see. So that will that helps me gage a progress with somebody. It's like, oh, I'm eating 1800 calories now, or 2000 calories now before, I could only get in 1200 and now I'm feeling better, and I'm hungrier, and I'm still maintaining my weight despite the increase in caloric intake. And that's a that's definitely a good sign. And then you could see, like, other things look at, are like, Okay, your body temperature increased. Like, I have clients from just food intake, their body temperature increases a degree over time. Now it's not like next week, but it's over a couple months of working together. It's like, oh, my waking temperatures, oh, now they're like in the 90 sevens, when we started out as like, 9596 and so you can see those changes as well, which are which are quite important. So you track a whole bunch of different metrics to see how people are with symptoms as well, and some of the calories and macros can be important things to look at. And having reference points is helpful, like the reference points with thyroid, like the 97.8 to 98.2 waking temp. It's not that every. Person I need work with needs to be in that range. And if not, if they're not in that specific range, when we start that are right on thyroid? No, it's more like, are we getting close to that? Are you 97 seven in the morning, I don't think. And your thyroid labs and all that look good. Are you probably not hypothyroid, or severely hypothyroid, or anything like that. So there's, again, the references are helpful for guidelines, but they're not set in stone. It's not it's not a straight jacket. You have to be there or you're also you're not healthy, whatever the deal is.

Jay Feldman 1:10:27
Right? And I like the reference point of a 97 eight to 98 ish waking temp a lot more than the calorie calculator, where my issue with the calorie calculators is, honestly, I'd prefer a goal of trying to get above them while maintaining or losing weight, as opposed to a goal of hitting them. And so that's, I think, they under account for the fact, or the possibility, of adjusting where your metabolic rate is at, which actually ties into one of the next questions we'll get to. And yeah. And so I'd like to see metabolism that is higher than the average whatever that they're using when they're coming up with these with this formula. So yeah, I think it's a helpful reference point with with that context in mind. And yeah, 100% I agree. Right. As far as the trajectory, the goal, you know, being able to eat more while losing weight, increasing body temperature, sleep, improving gun, improving all those things. I mean, that is what we're like. That is the exact trajectory that we're we're working to create. So yeah. And then yeah, just in reference to the last part of the question here, as far as how many calories we currently eat comparatively how active we are and all that, I have no idea whom high intake is at the moment, so I cannot answer that question. But maybe I'll do that in the future. And then, yeah, then we'll do this.

Mike 1:11:42
I only know mine because I make a day in chronometer, um, and I basically just run that day perpetually within a like, adjusting, like switching out things here, like, instead of four ounces of beef for that meal, I'll have like a cup, like five ounces of shrimp or something like that. So I know my and then I have, like, similar amounts of fat for each meal, so I know my stuff within a decent range. And then I also have to make my days when I work in the hospital. So I had to do that to figure out how, what can I do to eat enough and get all my stuff in with, like, the easiest amount of prep and minimal amount of time for consumption? So I run those when I'm in the hospital, and then my days off, I run like the same days on a regular basis. And so I don't have a lot of variety in terms of days, so I know what I'm doing on a regular basis, and just That's my personality overall.

Jay Feldman 1:12:33
Yeah, yeah. And for me, the biggest, the biggest like factor variable here is travel. So my food availability changes considerably based on where we are, and we're traveling a lot. And so it's yeah, it's Yeah, varying way more than it did when I was in the States.

Mike 1:12:49
Yeah, it's super easy to have it consistent in the States, because you can go buy your 93 seven ground beef and have everything like, like, it's all so streamlined, the whole food processing piece. Versus in other areas, it's like, you go to the butcher and it's like, is this cut of meat 97 so I was like, yeah, yeah.

Jay Feldman 1:13:09
No, it is definitely not asking them that they would have no idea, yeah, yeah, let alone trying to do all of it in Spanish. And adds another layer, it's hard enough to just get the cut of meat that I would like to get, because not only is it, of course, different in Spanish versus English, but they'll also call different cuts different things in all these different countries, and they cut the meat differently, like there are certain cuts you don't get in some countries versus others. And one thing too, just while we're on the subject, is here in Mexico, they really like to cut everything super thin. So when we get short ribs or beef Shanks or steaks or whatever is that we're getting, and sometimes I'll forget, like, just, just because I'm not so used, you know, you just forget sometimes but they cut it super paper thin, and it's just terrible, like they're really missing out by eating their stuff that way. And they, you know, they do it because, like, with the short ribs, they they grill them, like, they don't slow cook them. They grill them and they're super tough. It's really terrible. I don't know why they do it that way, but I've ordered the ribs, like at restaurants and things, and it's just the worst. And then, you know, you get it from a butcher and they cut it super thin, and you have to tell them, like, no, can you make it? Like, super thick?

Mike 1:14:17
What do you mean? Super thin? Like, there's no meat on it is just straight bone.

Jay Feldman 1:14:22
So with the short ribs, you know, like in the States, when you get them, they're cut like an individual ribs. What they'll I don't know if you've seen it, where they cut it the other way, like the long way, instead of the short way. So instead of cutting each rib individually, if you took the whole rack and cut it in slices, okay, that's, that's how they do it here, and they cut it in really thin slices so that they can grill it, because they aren't still cooking it.

Mike 1:14:42
What about the bones?

Jay Feldman 1:14:45
They cook it with the bone.

Mike 1:14:46
So, like, they're just, they're just, like, slicing the they're slicing it long ways with the, like, slicing through the bone. Or they're, yes, that is it. What doesn't make any sense. We're gonna. The way to cut the meat is to slice through the bone. Just cut it at the at the at the joint sections where it's just pure meat.

Jay Feldman 1:15:09
Yeah, you can actually get it cut this way in the States, I think they call it flanking style.

Mike 1:15:16
And then they grill it, and then they grill it. They don't

Jay Feldman 1:15:21
I thought it's like pan fry.

Mike 1:15:23
There's certain meats that you just, like, you don't do that because they're so, like, I wouldn't buy a whole bunch of Chuck and, like, a, like, a big piece, like a beef chuck, and then grill beef chuck. Like, you'd either grind it up or slice it up and then make a stew out of it, because it's so tough. It's like eating rubber. Yeah,

Jay Feldman 1:15:41
It is, yeah. I don't know how it happened here, like a I don't know, because they have, you know, traditional dishes and cooking and everything as well. And so I don't know how that started. You know, the steaks too. If you just get the typical steaks, it was the same in Costa Rica, and I think in it goes the same in Ecuador as well. They don't do, like, a thick ribeye, or New York or something like, if you're just getting this typical steak, it's a super, super thin, really tough, like, not good cut of meat.

Mike 1:16:09
Like the palomia stuff, like, where they pound the meat, that's it must be, when I was in Spain, that's what they had a lot, is like, the super thin steaks, and they pounded them so that they were, like, because the meat is tough, and then they pound them to kind of break the fibers, but, like, just get a better cut of meat and cook the other stuff, like a different way, or make it ground meat. And, like, a good quality Chuck that's cooked in the ground meat is pretty good. The ground meat is usually crappy when they add a whole bunch of collagenous pieces to it, like joints, and they just throw the garbage, not garbage, but it's like, the the lesser quality cuts that are, like, just a lot of connective tissue, they throw that in there. But if you get a, like, nice Chuck, and you grind it, it's into ground meat, it's good. I don't know why they you would that doesn't make any sense to me, but I, at least for me, I'm because I eat a lot of meat and, like, a beef connoisseur. So there's, like, certain things that you just don't do. Like, for example, I went to a restaurant and they had pecania, and they could, they took all the fat off the pecan, yeah, so it's just, like, a lean pecan, yeah. I was like, Whoa, you didn't cook the fat on the pecan, yeah? And then you could, once you do that, if you don't want the fat, then you slice it off. Like, things like that are just like, it's blasphemy.

Jay Feldman 1:17:21
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And again, maybe I'm, like, misunderstanding things. So if somebody is is either from Mexico or knows more about Mexican culture here, and I'm butchering it, you know, like, take, like, I'm a gringo here. It's, it's fine, like, I, I'll, I'll take that that, I'll acknowledge that possibility. But my interpretation is, yeah, that like when it comes to things like the short ribs, or, again, like the the beef Shanks, like, I don't know what the reasoning is there, but again, same thing super, super thin, unless you ask for it thick and then slow cook it. But yeah, they, they don't seem to be slow cooking those things that really need to be slow cooked to be tender.

Mike 1:17:59
And that's like boiling scallops. That's like eating boiled scallops was disgusting. It's like eating hockey pucks. You gotta, like, things have to be prepared the right way for different cuts of meat and whatnot. And there's, there's like, scientific basis for this, based on, like, denaturing of the proteins in different ways and breaking them down, etc. Like, scallops are way better fried in a pan, and to a certain like, toughness, you wouldn't boil them. Same thing with me, yeah? Like, you want them to be soft, and so when you bite through them, it's like, buttery. But if you, like, boil a whole bunch of little bass scallops, it's disgusting. It's like, what am I eating?

Mike: it's like first world problems.

Jay Feldman 1:18:43
I guess. Yeah, definitely. But I mean, but also, I mean, it makes like in some ways, yes, but also, if you want to be getting the gelatinous cuts, which make a difference for health, and are also cheaper, and they're super inexpensive in the places that we've traveled, but it's they're inedible.

Mike 1:19:01
Yeah, if you don't do it the right way, yeah, you have to break it down with the water, with the slow cooking process. Or, like, a slow cooking process, like, with, with a, you know, like, if you have, like, slow charbroiled ribs, like that have been done for a long period of time in the smoker, or something like, like, they're not ideal in the smoker, but they're delicious. Versus, like, you just have these tough beef ribs that you just, like, you just fried up in the pan and you're trying to eat it, and you're just like, yeah.

Jay Feldman 1:19:31
It reminds me when I was first learning to cook these things. And again, I will say, like, this has been the same in Costa Rica and Mexico, and I think Ecuador too, with the short ribs and, like, the really thin steaks and things. But it reminds me when I was first learning to slow cook things, back when we were in living in it was junior year, no senior year, and I remember I would get, like a roast, and we had never done this before, and I think you were still just sticking with the ground beef, and I was trying to do these roasts in the slow cooker. There, and I would cook it for a few hours. I just didn't know what I was doing. And then it would be really tough. And so I think that I overcooked it. And so I'd be cooking it less and less and less, you know, I would try it, because I would try it differently every time. So eventually I was cooking it for like, an hour or something. And the slow cooker when it needs to be, like, eight to 12, you know, like, normally, longer is way more tender. And so it kept going down until it was, like, an hour, and it would still be cooked, you know, the outside would still be brown. The inside was still like, you know, the pink, red. And I was like, it's cooked, but it's still so tough. And I don't know how I like, why it took so long to figure it out, but eventually I figured it out that it needs to be cooked way longer, and it because you're the other thing too is it's with a steak or something. If it's cooked after a few minutes, you don't want to keep cooking it, because you'll overcook it. But it doesn't happen with the slow cooked meats. They Yeah, yeah. They get really tender.

Mike 1:20:52
Point of the story, make sure you're cooking the right cuts of meats the right way, or else they'll be absolutely inedible.

Jay Feldman 1:20:59
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And they're really easy too. With that in mind, like, it's not hard to make these things, like, really good, fall off the bone, all that, you just do it in a slow cooker for a long time. Or here with their travels, we don't have slow cookers again. Just talking about, like, why it's really hard to estimate things is we're just, sometimes we don't know how much we're getting. You know, you ask for a few kilograms, and it's not exact, and then, yeah, we're just throwing it all in the big pot, and we have to cook it on the stove. Yeah, you know, for the more traditional.

Mike 1:21:28
A pro tip on ground meat, if you have a really, like, collagenous, crappy ground meat, like, it's just a bad grind, then you can, you can put it in a crock pot or a slow cooker or stew, and it'll be much more, much more easily eaten and digestible because it gets broken down. That's what I was doing. When I had, we had bought, like, a whole bunch of ground meat and Whole Foods That was on sale, and it was just like the most garbage kalatnis, like, I don't know they didn't grind Chuck like they ground something else, I don't know what it was, which is the problem with ground me, you never know what you're gonna get. So we just, started putting in the crock pot because that was the only way it was edible. If not, you're like, spitting out all these, like, really, um, collagenous, tough pieces.

Jay Feldman 1:22:14
All right. I hope you enjoyed that episode. In the next episode, we will be digging into just two questions, one regarding cod liver oil, including whether cod liver oil is an ideal source of vitamin A or retinol, and whether we should be concerned about the Omega three content of cod liver oil. Then we'll also be answering some questions regarding the croissant diet, which is something that we had addressed in previous episodes. And we'll be talking specifically about the idea that we want our fat cells to be insulin resistant to lose fat. We'll be discussing whether keeping insulin low is the key for fat loss, and what hormones do regulate fat loss. If you did enjoy today's episode, please leave a like or comment. If you're watching on YouTube and if you're listening elsewhere, please leave a review or five star rating on iTunes. All of those things really do a lot to help support the podcast, and are very much appreciated if you have any questions that you'd like us to answer on a future Q A episode. You can send those in to Jay Feldman wellness.com that's j, A, y at Jay Feldman wellness.com to check out the show notes for today's episode. You can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast you can take a look at the studies and articles on anything else that we referenced throughout today's episode, and if you are dealing with any low energy symptoms, maybe these are related to the different topics that we touched on today, but maybe they're completely unrelated symptoms. Maybe this could be chronic cravings and hunger, chronic pain or joint pain, gut symptoms, low energy or fatigue, brain fog, poor sleep, weight gain, hormonal imbalances, or any other sorts of chronic health symptoms or chronic health conditions, whether that's autoimmune issues, diabetes, heart disease or on from there, then head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy where you can sign up for a free energy balance mini course, where I'll explain how these different symptoms and conditions are really caused by lack of energy. And I'll also walk you through the main things that you can do from a diet and lifestyle perspective to maximize your cellular energy and resolve these symptoms and conditions. So to sign up for that free energy balance mini course, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, and with that, I'll see you in the next episode.