Theresa Piela  0:00  
I think it really does pick up on the the shame that's permeated our our eating, and we've been trained and conditioned to feel like hunger is a bad thing,

Jay Feldman  0:13  
you know, Mike, when we were eating between five and eight plantains a day that were cooked in butter and salt, and then we poured honey on them, and cinnamon, and whatever else we weren't thinking at the time, this is a sign of our addiction, and you know this is really unhealthy for

Mike Fave  0:31  
us. Oh, look, nucleus accumbens lights up when you have fructose or you have sugar, and it also lights up when you have cocaine. See, they're the same, and it's like that's imprecise,

Jay Feldman  0:40  
or basically say I don't think it's ever beneficial to do Wim Hof breathing, like in a, in a global sense, and I would basically say the same when it comes to cold punches, except for one specific effect that you could argue for both of them.

Theresa Piela  0:56  
Okay, welcome to the Bioenergetic View. I am still your host, Teresa Piella, joined as always by Jay Feldman and Mike Faith, and I'm really excited. We're finally getting to these Q and A's, and hopefully they will be interesting to everyone tuning in as well. We're going to be talking about the differences between good cravings and bad cravings, how to determine which stressors are beneficial or not, the differences between stress from sauna, exercise, cold exposure, and fasting, and how a low-carb diet could be causing fatigue and allergies. You guys ready?

Mike Fave  1:34  
Yeah,

Jay Feldman  1:34  
yeah, let's do

Theresa Piela  1:35  
it. Okay, so starting off with David's question, he says, "Thank you for your insights and information. However, how do you distinguish between good cravings like salt, fat, sweets, and bad cravings, nicotine, alcohol, drugs? How does one know that a good craving isn't, in fact, a bad craving? For instance, I have ankleizing spondylitis. A lot of salt seems to make it worse, and very minimal salt seems to be somewhat helpful. I assume that good cravings also have their limitations. I'm glad we're starting off with this one, because it comes back to some of the original quotes I heard from Ray talking about how cravings might be showing and reflecting an underlying need of the body and I love that frame to think about how actually even even putting something in the category of good or bad might be throwing us in a direction that isn't helpful if we can start to look at what the body is asking for then maybe that changes how we ask questions and the answers we get, so Jay, to jump in on David's question, where do you want to begin here?

Jay Feldman  2:49  
Yeah, it's a good question, and one that can actually be kind of like complex if we really unpack it, because what he's getting at is something that we talk about a lot, which is that our bodies have signals for a reason, if they're telling us to eat food, like especially if we're under eating and we're dealing with cravings for calorie dense foods, or we just want to eat a lot. Most people look at that as a bad thing, they look at that as the enemy when they're dieting, and that's the thing they need to fight against, that's the thing they need to restrict from same thing with carbohydrates and sweets, and anything with that sweet taste, you know, something that we end up discussing a lot, because of, you know, the how big the low-carb sphere is at the moment, and one of their obviously major tenants is avoiding carbohydrates, and this idea that our innate desire, taste, craving for those foods is actually a bad thing, right. It's like a negative thing that we don't want to listen to. We want to make sure to restrict in that regard. And we also hear it in the mainstream in a ton of different ways, whether it's talking about just calorie-dense foods or highly processed foods, you know, the potato chips that taste really good, like those are bad for you, and the, you know, cakes and cookies, and all of that. Salt is another one that he mentioned here, where again, mainstream perspective is salt isn't good for you, even though you have this taste for it. You know, you need to restrict it, so it's something that we end up butting up against quite a bit. You know, this basically taking, like, finding that the opposite stance is often true when it comes to our physiology, which is that cravings and desires are there for a reason, and that doesn't always mean that listening to the craving, and I think the way people think that that means is the right choice. For example, like craving a donut, I don't think any of us would say, "Okay, that means you need to eat a donut. Doesn't necessarily mean like never eat a donut either, but what I would more so say is that's probably an indication that either we're underfed, like we're not getting enough calories, maybe we're dealing with some extra stress right now, maybe we are lacking either fat or carbohydrates, which are both really high in donuts, and it would probably be a lot better to satisfy that craving with something else. Obviously, Mike, I know you're thinking mac nuts right now, along with maybe some dry fruit and dark chocolate. Exactly, so something like that is more what a recommendation would be. Not that the craving for, or what's underlying the craving, is a problem, but what most people satisfy those cravings with is a problem, and the way they interpret it, right? They're they're thinking that this is something that they're, they're trying to resist, and they don't want to give into, and they aren't actually understanding where the craving is coming from. They aren't actually understanding that this is coming from a physiological need. So, there's a lot to unpack here, and then there's this other variable thrown in here, which is like some of these addictive substances, like nicotine and drugs, and, and and that that kind of gets into another territory, but I think in many ways there's a lot of parallels, and we've kind of talked around this a little bit at times, and it's definitely something that Ray talked about, which is basically this idea of addiction also being something that comes from the physiological need, obviously the goal not being to satisfy that addiction with something that's harmful to us, in the same way that we don't want to satisfy the craving with something that's harmful to us, but that's still coming from, like, being something that comes from an underlying physiological need. One study that's pointed to a lot, or there's a handful of these on rodents, where they're given free access to some version of a drug, like I believe they use some version of, like, heroin or something like that, or maybe cocaine. I think it was

Theresa Piela  6:24  
cocaine, the ones I'm thinking of, but yeah, similar,

Jay Feldman  6:27  
yeah. And they have some, some of them that are experiencing like really stimulating environment with a lot of new experiences, a lot of interesting things going on, like they have good social interaction, all of that, versus other ones that are in a basically very poor environment, and the ones that are in the really enriching environment don't have the same addictive tendencies as those that that are in a really poor environment, which is basically pointing to that addiction being the result of a physiological need for social interaction and having interesting novel experiences and enriched environment, and so I do think it's very parallel here, and what I think I'm kind of getting to as I'm explaining this is that when it comes to cravings, what I would say is we need to understand where they're coming from, like what the underlying physiological need is, and then try to satisfy that need in a healthy way, and it's not as much about giving into the cravings, or that there are good or bad cravings, but rather cravings come from some physiological need. Let's determine what that is, and let's respond to it in a healthy, constructive way, as opposed to trying to satisfy a desire for salt with French fries from McDonald's, or trying to satisfy a desire for a meaningful life and good social interaction, and all of that with alcohol and drugs. You've heard me talk about the Energy Balance Solution program before, and all of the benefits we help people experience, but I want you to hear it from the members themselves. Here are just a few of the recent wins people have shared in the energy balance solution group calls.

Speaker 1  8:04  
I lost another 12 pounds in my A 1c Last time we talked, I was in a 10 with my UNC. It dropped into the mid sevens. I'm pretty sure if I, my blood meter is correct.

Theresa Piela  8:14  
I was sleeping better. I've been having even a few nights of eight hours. I'm really happy.

Speaker 2  8:21  
I've always kind of had lots of gum inflammation, lots of bleeding during cleanings, and everything, and kind of figured that was just how it was, and there was none of that. My hygienist was like absolutely shocked. I've noticed that my body is just handling water retention a lot better than I would always wake up really bloated in the morning, and that's all gone.

Speaker 3  8:42  
My biggest concern was my constipation. It's been fantastic, and it's good, healthy stools, sometimes two times a day, you know. And it's just amazing. I can't believe this.

Speaker 4  8:55  
I feel better. I've got good energy. I sleep better than I have in a long time.

Speaker 5  9:01  
The last temperature I took during the day was 98.16 which is phenomenal for me. I'm usually low 97 Overall, it looks really good, like my A 1c is a nice, it's 5.5 which is trending down. My insulin looks really good. The fasting glucose just as the lowest has ever been so overall really encouraging numbers there. TSH was 1.9 which is 2.96 months ago. If

Jay Feldman  9:31  
you want to have results just like that, then head over to Jveldman wellness.com/solution to check out all of the details for the Energy Balance Solution program.

Theresa Piela  9:41  
Yeah, my Mike, when, when, when I read this question, what were you thinking in terms of things that are more addictive and can be, yes, someone trying to maybe stabilize, lower stress, they're just at a point where life feels unbearable, overwhelming, and say they are turning to something like out. Alcohol, or they're using nicotine to get, like, a dopamine burst, or to feel more productive. How would you handle that? What would you tell this person if they're maybe confused, feeling shameful about it, but also wanting to take better care of themselves?

Mike Fave  10:15  
I think I divide these, and I guess this is like a somewhat of, like, a semantic game with language, but it does, it actually, when you make the distinction, becomes important. So I would say things with, in terms of nicotine, alcohol, and addictive drugs, are more compulsive than they are actually cravings. So people are compelled to use them for a variety of circumstances, of course, right? So you know, to manage stress, like this, is the tool that they decided to use in different circumstances, whereas the cravings that we actually get from food are actual cravings. So, the craving here being defined as we are seeking something that we have a physiologic need for, and a compulsion on this other side being seeking something that is somehow it has an addictive quality to it, or it's helping us. It's not something that we necessarily have a physiologic need for, but is that pushes us towards a propensity of continued, continued use of this thing, right? So, and I think that when we're looking in the low-carb sphere versus like a pro-metabolic sphere, right, it's always this versus everything has to be this dichotomy that we get pushed towards, but I think there's a piece of this that's actually important, and that's true, that comes out of the low carbs here, that people will have compulsive eating towards certain types of foods because they have been engineered to create compulsion, so the difference between having a donut versus so I want to have carbs, right? I'm craving carbs, and I crave a donut, or maybe it's not. It starts as a craving, and then it generally moves into a compulsive state of eating. You, and that you see low-carb gurus will talk about this, right, where one donut turns to two, turns to three, turns the whole box, whereas on the flip side, there's initial need or a craving for a carbohydrate. The person went to use this particular food to meet it, and then the food is engineered to create a compulsive consumption pattern. I think that's where this like crossover happens between cravings and compulsion, but I do think that they're separate, and trying to bridge them together, as your craving for salt is akin, or your craving for sugar is akin to a craving for cocaine or heroin or nicotine, I think that's conflation of two different things, so I don't even think they're the same thing. I think there's different things going on. I think we look at salts, fats, and sugars, we have, we have a craving for those things because of our physiologic need, and the problem comes in, and what food you are choosing to hit and use that craving, so the source of carbohydrate to hit the sweet craving is very important, and Jay pointed the same thing with salt. The source that you use to hit your salt craving is extremely important. If you're going to get French fries from McDonald's, you now have, you are trying to meet a physiologic need with a compulsion-inducing option, and so in that sense, the problem we have is that we have kind of a bridge now, because of the processed food system. The food engineering that goes on, is it? It creates compulsion for people, whereas your normal food sources, your berries, your potatoes, your your steaks, your, your, your macadamia nuts, your things like this, even dark chocolate, there's, they're not such compulsive foods, they don't create these high-level compulsions, like try to eat a ridiculous amount of potatoes. For the vast majority of people, there's the satiety limit, like you're going to hit a wall in terms of how much you can actually have. Now, if you get French fries deep fried in oil and covered in salt, that limit is adjusted. There's a mismatch in terms of your satiety signaling with that, and the food there becomes more of a compulsive consumption.

So, I think there's this conflation in this kind of muddying the waters in the low-carb sphere around food addictions and food cravings and food noise, and I think a lot of people, at least in my experience with clients, when they come out of a low-carb setup, or even other dietary setups that are highly restrictive, and you get into a setup that allows you to actually have a diet that has a variety of different food options, including carbs, including fats, including proteins, right. We're not, we don't have to choose between high carb, low fat, or low fat, high carb. I'm not, we don't know, we don't, we don't have any of that, but you, you get to this point where you're eating a diet that meets your needs, the cravings disappear, and then if the food selection is appropriate, so do the compulsions. There's no need for those compulsions anymore. So that's how I differentiate and distinguish between these things. I don't think there's a physiologic need for nicotine, alcohol, or any of the drugs. I think people are compelled to use them for a variety of different circumstances. I think they're using them as they potentially start either using them as a tool to manage stress or to manage some component of their life that that to basically check out or sedate themselves in different environments for something like alcohol or heroin or whatever, or they get engrossed in it when they're younger from social. Pressure, and then, because it's compulsive and addicted, it keeps them moving forward. And then, for food, I think people have a general physiologic need. And then there's the problem. Now, is in the modern environment, foods have been engineered to create compulsive and addictive qualities around some of these food options, instead of people choosing an appropriate food option to meet that need. So, that is kind of the difference that I would set things up here as or the distinctions I would make, and then in terms of the the amounts, right? Can you get too much carbohydrate? Can you get too much sugar? Yes, of course you can. Can you get too much fat? 100% The argument here is not that you should eat unlimited quantities of salt or sugar or fat or even total energy intake. The argument here is that you want to have enough energy intake, enough carbohydrate intake, enough salt intake, enough potassium, calcium, magnesium, B vitamins, enough resource and substrate for your system to work at an optimal level. That's the question here. It's removing these ideas of puritanic restriction around all the foods that I, I can't have carbs because they're addictive, and you know this like constant self flagellation around inherent things that you have. It's like it's like this idea that carbs are evil and they're addictive is like this replacement of original sin, right? It's like this idea that we have these inherently problematic drives in our system, and instead of recognizing them as, like, no, our body is telling us, hey, this is an intelligent signal to meet a physiologic need, so that we can avoid relying on stress systems and degradation of the system altogether, right? If you don't have enough salt, you have RAS RAS system activation with aldosterone. If you don't have enough carbs, you're going to elevate cortisol signaling, glucagon signaling, degrade amino acids, degrade glycogen stores. If you don't have enough fat, you start to see an increase in adrenaline and growth hormone to release stored fatty acids from the tissues. So, the body is trying to maintain its structure, right? And it's giving us cues to allow us to do that. Our nervous system is regulating things, and those cravings are coming from this regulation process, the nicotine, alcohol, cocaine, heroin, that's not necessary, that's in hijacking of the entire system, in through compulsive substance use, this, which is very different from physiologic need. So, that would be my take on this. And again, is there two, is what a lot of salt create issues? Yes, you can take too much salt. You could put too much pressure on the RAS system by creating sodium potassium imbalance or sodium fluid imbalance. You can also create salt stress in the intestine.

So, if you have somebody who has ankylosing spondylitis and they have an overgrowth of pathogenic bacteria like Klebsiella pneumoniae, that's leaking endotoxin and driving the autoimmune process, and you take high doses of salt and create salt stress in the intestine, and allow the intestine to become leakier. Okay, well, now you could create an issue in this person's context. So it's again, it's about finding the right amount for that person's context, and not just creating a rule, carbs are evil, and then running with that, carbs are good or carbs are bad, this like dichotomy, if any, if you ever crave anything, well, that, that's that's inherently a bad thing. These heuristics are not helpful long term, they're not helpful, they're helpful for people in the short term, because if you come off a standard American diet and you say, "Hey, I'm not going to eat any carbohydrates, you basically like cut out the vast majority of crap compulsive foods that you can eat now, it's a little different now, right? Because now you have keto treats, but prior to keto treats, you know, when, when we were doing keto, low-carb, if, and things like this, you didn't have those same options, so your diet really wound up being this like very basic, even if it wasn't carnivore, it was keto, it was going to be, I'm going to have some vegetables, and I'm going to have some type of animal protein source, and I'm going to have some type of high-quality fat source, olive oil, dairy fat, some type of nut, or something like this. So, which is arguably much better than the standard American diet. And so, are people going to get better from that? Yes. And then, on carnivore, you have an extreme elimination diet that cuts out everything, and then you are left with steaks, which, to be fair, are very nutrient-dense. Steaks and organ meats, you can hit a lot of micronutrients, you can hit a lot of needs with that, especially if you're coming from a standard American diet. Depending on how it was set up, you could be missing quite a few things, and you could have long-standing dysbiosis from that. So, there's a lot of things that the carnivore stuff solves and cuts out. So, initially you have this nice heuristic, eliminate carbs, which eliminates a lot of problems, but it's like it's just a broad, broad stroke. It's imprecise, it misses a lot of things, creates a lot of new problems down the line, and it creates dichotomies and almost like a religious zeal around minimizing carbohydrates, and then it tries to backwardsly justify it with things like, oh, this is an addiction, right? You're addicted if you want carbohydrates, and I think that's where you're bordering into territory. It's like, yeah, this just is not reality, that's just.. there's much more nuance to the picture here. And again, this is not.. I'm not saying that David's saying this.. I think David's. Question is coming out of that sphere, so I'm trying to frame it from that sphere to provide my answer.

Theresa Piela  20:05  
Yeah, and I love that you did it that way, because I think it really does pick up on the shame that's permeated our, our eating, and our, we've, we've been trained and conditioned to feel like hunger is a bad thing, or a specific craving is a bad thing. When, in fact, I think we all see it as a really wise and beautiful rebalancing act that we can learn to pay attention to and work with, and get to know what our bodies are asking for, and delivering what it's asking for in a very intentional way, and I like that you were able to talk about in terms of, like, okay, here's a biological need versus here's more of a compulsive, a compulsive, like, self-perpetuating addictive tendency, and I guess I think about it also in terms of the trauma component, because a lot of people that use nicotine, alcohol, and drugs are really under chronic stress that they might not even be aware of, and they're using these substances to Mike, like you said, kind of like numb or feel better or get a break from being in this heightened chronic stress state that has become so familiar to them that they don't even know that they're in it, and to start to pull out, like, okay, well, can we think about it in terms of what is your body asking for, what is, and what are you actually using to numb? Then we can start to come back to maybe some more clarity as to how to approach cravings versus sedation, numbing escapism, and and not put them in the same category, so thank you for dividing it like that. Because, as David was asking, how do you distinguish? Well, if we can think about food as okay, we need food, we want our bodies to thrive, we can get curious and excited about how to listen to these cravings versus if we're under a lot of stress, and we know, I think with the compulsions, Mike, like you were saying, it's like it has like a grip on certain people, and to understand, like a compulsion doesn't feel good, whereas you know eating some mac nuts with chocolate when you really need some extra fat and salt, and you know maybe some dopamine feels different when that craving is actually satisfied. Yeah,

Mike Fave  22:25  
I want to just add one piece to this, because some of the other research that I think Jay, you're alluding to, talks about that some of these food options light up the nucleus accumbens, which is similar to other other substances, and it's like that doesn't just because you have one pathway where you show similarity, where you show reward centers specifically lighting up in response to consumption, that doesn't then say that they are the same thing, right? This is the, this is the same kind of logical fallacy stuff that you see from, like, Dr. Robert Lustig, with oh, fructose pathway in the liver, alcohol pathway in the liver, look, similarities, like I think some of the same thing comes from his, like, oh look, nucleus accumbens lights up when you have fructose or you have sugar, and it also lights up when you have cocaine, see, they're the same, and it's like that's imprecise, that's in it's there's much more that goes on instead of highlighting a single mechanistic pathway, and then being like, hey, look, there we go, like they're the same thing, that's not how it necessarily works, and if you bring it out into a broader context, and you like, especially from a pro metabolic bioenergetic context, like Dr. Pete's context, you would look there and you say, of course, you would get a reward center when you have adequate carbohydrate and you have adequate, you eat fatty components and stuff like this, of course, you're going to get a reward signaling thing. Your body is searching out in the environment to find substrate to power the machine, right, to provide the mitochondria with carbohydrates and fatty acids to run effectively. So, of course, you're going to get a reward, a system inbuilt that prioritizes seeking those things out. Of course, you're going to get it. That doesn't mean there's also a matching piece, like once that is, once the system is lit up, once you have, you have stated the reward, there doesn't, there doesn't always have to be this continued compulsive drive to eat. That's the thing that's important here, and that's dependent upon the source that you use, if you use donuts, okay, like you may have some compulsion, there is that because carbohydrates are the problem, I don't think so, that donuts have carbohydrates, but they have a lot of other things inbuilt in them to drive a compulsion, whereas blueberries aren't really a compulsive eating food, you know, if you haven't eaten carbs for a long time, sure, like when you start eating blueberries, like, man, I really, these are pretty good, but when you are consistent, when you have consistently had your, like, carbohydrates on a regular basis, like, you don't sit there and smash the whole bag of blueberries, like, I'm good, I got what I need, there's not this compulsive drive, so, like, that's another. Piece that's very important, just because you see this, this similar response in the nucleus accumbens between some substances doesn't mean that their impact on the body and the system is exactly the same, and I think that trying to wax that mechanism is is imprecise, and I'm not even saying that, I'm not saying that Lustig has like said that's the whole picture, but he has brought that mechanism up, I'm pretty sure, and then people run with it in this fashion and make it seem like, well, because they, these reward centers are activated in the brain, well, you know, sugar is just as bad as cocaine, it's like that is like such a, this is not logically correct at all, like, to even to go there is not logically correct, it just says in this specific pathway, there they activate similar, similar circuitry. That's the only thing that it says.

Theresa Piela  25:46  
Yet, still amazing that a claim like that is received, and a lot of people still believe it. You know, sugar is the same as cocaine, and I think hopefully with enough time that will start to dissolve, and people will realize, like Mike's saying, they're not quite the same, but I mean, even in David's situation, where he's realizing he's labeled salt as something that he knows is good, but with his context, with his health issues, there's a balancing act, so I mean, maybe even thinking about, okay, these good cravings that even if, if he were to have as much as he really wanted it, it seems to make things worse. How can we, like, what would you tell David if he were a client of yours? Jay,

Jay Feldman  26:36  
yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I think there's a lot of overlap between, like, it's not. It would be nice if it was nice, like clean, neat boxes, where it's like this is a compulsion, this is responding to a biological need, always. This is always responding to, like, hunger cravings, like, but, but there's a lot of overlap. There's a lot of gray area, and the salt is a perfect example, or, as you said earlier, Mike, like, just because carbs in general are have benefits, and fat has benefits, and protein has benefits, that doesn't mean that every person should be eating tons of each, or the same amount of each, like it's going to vary from from individual to individual based on so many nuances, and of course, like this is a perfect example here with salt, and you touched on another one, Mike, which is the relationship with other vitamins and minerals, like potassium, for example. You know, someone's like, I've seen a number of situations where someone mentions, when I have salt, I have an increase in swelling and edema and water weight and blood pressure, and that could be a scenario where maybe they're under eating potassium, and we've got this imbalance there, or they're just majorly overdoing the salt. I know people have used salt as a supplement, and this was especially popular, maybe like five years ago, where people would do like a quarter, half a teaspoon of salt as like a supplement multiple times a day. And again, not to say that there aren't circumstances where that could be beneficial, and salt has a bunch of anti-stress effects and has a lot of benefits, but we need to consider these things based on our individual circumstances, and we need to consider our reactions and our responses to these things as well. So, in this case, with somebody who's dealing with this sort of negative response, and they have ankylosing spondylitis, that's helpful to know, in the same way that maybe this person could eat macadamia nuts and dark chocolate and have bad responses, or they could be eating, you know, drinking orange juice, or eating apples, and be having a bad response, and there's a lot of underlying things that could be off there. It doesn't mean that the craving was bad, or that the biological need isn't there, but it could mean that there's other kind of pathology going on, and in the case of as and most autoimmune conditions we see a lot of dysfunction in the gut, and as Mike was alluding to, like that could be part of what's going on here, depending on how they're eating the salt, like if he's, if David's having like a really large amount of salt all at once, that could be a factor, or maybe there's a lack of potassium intake, or maybe there's something else going on with the foods that he tends to eat a lot of salt, with you know, it's hard to say in this individual circumstance without having more information, but I think it's an important point in terms of separating the biological need from the food itself or the intervention itself, and the response, because each of those can be coming from different places, and we could have a need for more carbohydrates, and we could then satisfy it with, let's say, grapes, and we see our blood sugar goes up to 220 because we're physiologically insulin resistant, and then we say, oh, well, grapes are bad, and my physiological, like, it's not a physiological need for grapes, that was a craving, that was, that's an addiction to fruit, and that's really unhealthy, and I think that's where we really start to run into issues, and there's there's not clean, neat boxes here, which makes it a little bit challenging, you know, another example, like Mike, you were talking earlier about the difference between having, let's say, like boiled potatoes, which are nearly impossible to overeat, versus having. You know, potatoes alongside fat and salt in the form of French fries, which are much easier to quote unquote overeat.

However, if you're in a position where you're chronically underfed and you're making potatoes with butter and salt, and you're finding that when you eat them, you can eat a lot of them, and you still want more, that doesn't necessarily mean that the potatoes are bad, or that you don't need to eat a lot of them, you know, Mike, when we were eating between five and eight plantains a day that were cooked in butter and salt, and then we poured honey on them and cinnamon and whatever else, we weren't thinking at the time this is a sign of our addiction, and you know this is really unhealthy for us, rather we were recognizing that there is this inherent biological need that was there that had been there for years, and we had been resisting it, and we needed to over time, like restore, like replenish this nutrient that we were really deficient in, and replenish this, the state, like, get back to a better metabolic state. So, again, there's a lot of gray area here, and it's not as simple as food that tastes good is bad, or if you have a bad response to something, that means that there's not a physiological need there, and as far as parsing that out, it's I'm trying to come up with some like simple strategies and rules, and I think there's certainly no one size fits all like a set of recommendations here, but and it can be hard to distinguish between what's like a healthy desired and unhealthy desire, and so I think it's a combination of paying attention to how you feel after you quote unquote satisfy the cravings, consider whether there's other foods that you can do some testing with, and try to satisfy the same cravings with other things, and see what those differences are. Obviously, there's some level of understanding the physiology that's important too. You know, it's that's why like that piece is important for understanding the difference between a donut and french fries from McDonald's versus French fries made at home with tallow or or butter versus, you know, boiled sweet potato versus fruit, you know, not saying that any of those is necessarily better than the other. It depends on the individual, and we talked about this as well when it came to the Sour Patch Kids versus an apple. I don't remember the exact scenario, it was Jeff, Jeff Nipper, right, and I don't remember the other guy, Jesse James. What's that, Jesse James? Okay, yeah, Jesse James. And, yeah, thank you. And, as we were saying, like, you could have a craving for sugar, and for one person, satisfying that craving with the apple could go really bad, could lead to, like, bloating and brain fog, and maybe flaring of an autoimmune condition. And if that person had the Sour Patch Kids, instead, or the gummy worms, they might be much better off, and they might have actually kind of satisfied the need and moved on, versus for other people, they do way better with the apples. So, there's certainly no neat, clean boxes. I think listening to listening to those cravings and trying to tune in. One recommendation I often have for clients is trying to get down to more of the root of the craving or desire, so if they say, like, I want pizza, or I want donuts, or I want ice cream, those are obviously foods that have a lot of different components in there, there's salt, there's fat, there's carbohydrates, there's, you know, starches, sugars, and I try to have somebody think, like, would you eat like a piece of butter right now, you know, and if so, that's pointing maybe more toward this being a fat, like a desire for fat, or what do you eat, you know, like plain white rice, like, is that, is that more of what you're craving, and by asking ourselves those questions, like kind of simplifying it fully, you know, orange juice could be an example for more something more on the sugary side, those could tell us a little bit more about what the actual physiological need is, as opposed to something that's a lot blurrier, like I want to go to McDonald's and eat a happy meal or something. So that's one strategy, something to think about.

Another, of course, is paying attention to how you respond, which Dave had mentioned here with the salt, which is, which is important, and then kind of digging into why that response might be, and continuing to experiment. One thing I just want to highlight again is when we have a deep physiological need that that we haven't been meeting for a long time, it can take a while to like satisfy the craving, and if you eat a meal and you don't feel like the craving is satisfied, that doesn't necessarily mean that this is a compulsion as opposed to a biological need, and again, hard to distinguish between those two. Part of this comes down to trusting how you're feeling in other ways as well, like if you eat this meal and you're feeling bad and you eat more and you're feeling worse, versus if your energy is better and your mood is better and you're seeing signs that this is actually the right path and you actually need to continue adding, let's say, carbohydrates or calories is another one too, you know, and we've talked about this as well, when we talked about the kind of all in approach, where when someone's coming, you know, from severe over training, under eating, severe like energy deficits, eating like having a craving for everything in high calorie foods is normal, it's a normal physiological response, you could hype a. Just eat anything you wanted for a period of time, and eventually that craving will reduce, but there are probably going to be some negative effects in the meantime, or you can do that in a more careful way, and probably feel better in the processes, and have fewer of the side effects, but yeah, just because the biological need isn't immediately satisfied doesn't mean this is necessarily like a negative thing, it's not necessarily an addiction or a compulsion.

Theresa Piela  35:24  
Yeah, I like thinking about it too, in terms of how would you feed, like, a hungry five year old if they're craving something. Like, what would you give a five year old that you care about and you want to be well? You know, you're not going to give them, like, nicotine gum and a shot of tequila. You might make them, you know, some stuffed dates and with a side of cheese, something that can satisfy and balance, and well, it depends on the person. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions, but that's how I like to frame it.

Mike Fave  35:51  
I also think having a bad response to something also doesn't mean this is something that you pointed out, Jay, but having a bad response to something doesn't mean that the, that the thing is wrong, right? I made a video a long time ago where Dr. Sean Baker had come off carnivore into, like, for like a couple days, just to try apples or something, and then he had a bad response, and it's like, I mean, if you've been only eating meat for a large tour for an extended period of time, and then you try to throw in like a really high FODMAP fruit in a decent quantity, and then you get bloating or digestive issues. It's like, is that a problem with carbs, or is that par for the course? That's par for the course. That's pretty common. I mean, I did it too. I came off low carb, and I tried apple juice, and I was at a party when I was in college, and I destroyed some poor girl's bathroom after having apple juice from being low carb, because I couldn't tolerate an isolated fructose load with that had an imbalance fructose to glucose ratio on top of the fact that was high in sorbitol, so this is where knowing some of these little nuances is really important. I mean, a lot of times the clients, that's what we're looking at, there people are saying, you know, I added in carbs and, like, you know, my sleep is better and my energy is better, but man, I'm so bloated, and I look at the carbs like dried mango. It's like, well, and then I don't think carbs are really the problem here, but maybe, man, maybe not doing so well with mango. They, and it's not an.. it's not a forever thing. There is a transition point with the digestive system for certain foods. Now, some people may just not tolerate apples long term, like that is what it is. Sometimes it's just how it goes with their microbiome or their digestive capacity for certain types of sugars. That's fair, and that's where there's going to be an individual response to different things. And when the diet ultimately it's less about, like, do I choose carnivore, keto, vegan, paleo, bioenergetic, whatever. That's like these titles for the diets are irrelevant. It's actually unimportant. What's most important is, do you set up a diet that allows you to optimally thrive and function appropriately? Does it do you do you feel good? Do you function well? And do you, does your lab value some of these other markers? Does this stuff look good, are these things moving in the right direction, and continuing to maintain? Is it sustainable long term? These are things that we want to see, and like, how is your response to this to these things? How is your body responding? And then also, is this in the context of grounded and appropriate physiology? Right, because there's another thing, like people say, well, I feel much better when I don't eat, when I do a seven day fast, it's like, well, there's a couple, there's some issues with that, so it's not only how well you feel, it's like, does the general, do you have all of these ducks in a row, is there consistency across multiple variables, function, actual tangible results, lab work, outcomes, blood pressure, your temperatures, whatever the thing is, and is it actually grounded in a reasonable physiology and understanding of how things work, you want to have all of these things come together, or and then for your individual diet, there's going to be individual components with that, right, and it's people are going to have different diets that they run with based on their physiology, it's just that's something also to keep in mind, so like the I think the dietary camps and try piece obfuscates this, and as people try to like fit themselves into the box instead of determine what is going to work for their particular setup, and then you know it's easier psychologically, I think, to go that way, but if you really want outcomes, it, you're not going to try to slam yourself into the box, I think you, that there needs to be a personalization aspect to it, and you need to have consistency across these different spheres.

Theresa Piela  39:26  
Agreed. Yeah, we don't need to over complicate things by making boxes where we don't need them. That being said, I want to jump to the next question. Are you guys ready?

Mike Fave  39:35  
Yep. Yep.

Theresa Piela  39:36  
Okay. Bob Caswell asks, or he says, I love the principles behind this discussion, but would love some more practical application. It feels like there's a spectrum of good to bad activities, much like Jay's food guide, where he has green, yellow, red categories in the bioenergetic view for self-inflicted stress. On the one hand, you are all unanimously in favor of resistance. Training within reason. On the other hand, it seems the other side of the spectrum is that cold plunges are way overrated, but your brief mention of saunas was unclear. Someone said overuse of saunas is bad, but that's quite the hedge. I'd like to know where the following land on your spectrum. You ready, guys? Are you taking notes that I'm trying to get you to make for us here, laugh out loud, and why sauna use high intensity interval training. This one especially, so much out there suggesting multiple times a week is part of the secret sauce to longevity, and things like running, jogging, walking, swimming, sports, etc. etc. I know basic walks and resistance training are good, but then it gets a little murky bio energetically as to if how hit is good or bad. When does any other activity make sense to cross over into too much? So, yeah, we're kind of back to this this frame, and maybe we can step back and start to see things within context and on the spectrum and understanding intention and effect and all the other moving pieces, so Jay, to start, let's, let's, let's touch on the sauna side of things first.

Jay Feldman  41:14  
Yeah, so I'm actually going to zoom out a little bit first, because okay,

Theresa Piela  41:18  
please do,

Jay Feldman  41:19  
and then I do want to talk about saunas, for sure, but the reason being, you know, he was asking for a spectrum with these different potential, these are all stressors, right? Anything that requires a demand on the body in terms of energy is in this category of a stressor, and then, and, but obviously, they all have unique effects as well, which are called specific effects, so even though exercise is a stressor, it can cause stress, and an infection is a stressor, and can cause stress, and cold plungers are a stressor that can cause stress. They also all have unique effects that are, you know, different between them, and have all these different physiological effects, but I think creating, you know, he mentioned, like, what about creating a spectrum for these in the same way that you do for foods, I think that this just taking that conceptually is important, because if we were to create a stressor spectrum, the things that are in the red category versus like the yellow, green, blue are really obvious, like things that are in the red category are going to be infections, heavy metal exposure, poor sleep, or lack of sleep, polyunsaturated fats, endotoxin, alcohol, like it's all things that have stressor effects and very harmful specific effects too, and you know, I don't think it's anything too surprising there, and everything, and then maybe you could throw, well, I'll come back to cold plunges in a second, because I think those are one that kind of stand out here a little bit, and then I think everything else would mostly be in some version of a like an okay category, but at that point the difference isn't whether these things are inherently harmful, right? Like, we could say heavy metal exposure, it's a stressor, and all the specific effects are negative, unless you ask the hormesis people, who obviously they would say it's positive, because it activates the detoxification pathways that help you clear heavy metals, so more heavy metal exposure is better, but we're going to leave that to the side, that insanity, but when we're talking about these other stressors, they can, they all have some level of benefits, but because they have a stressor effect, the rest is very individual, because it depends on what you can handle without dipping into stress or with a certain amount of stress, and that's part of where, again, we're talking about this with responses to cravings and addiction versus versus biological need. There's a lot of gray area here, and the same is very much true when it comes to any of these stressors, exercise or sauna, for example, and in this case I would say the biggest reason for that is because of how much of a demand someone can handle without dipping too deep into stress, so we could say in general walking is beneficial, but I have clients who have severe chronic fatigue, and if I told them that they need to walk 7000 steps a day, they would be feeling absolutely awful. I mean, they wouldn't be able to do that, for one, and even if they tried to get half that or something, they would be laid up for weeks with, like, flu-like symptoms, brain fog, and joint pain, and muscle pain, and you know, all of the rest. So, there's no objective like this is the right amount, it's going to vary considerably based on what you're able to handle, like what your resilience is, how well you produce energy, how much fuel you have on board, how much stress you're already under, if you're already dealing with poor sleep and you're dealing with poor access to good nutrition, and a lot of psychological stress, and heavy metal exposure, and mold exposure. There's already a huge amount of stressors being placed on your bodies, let's say on your body, let's say chronic infections as well. Then the amount of stress, like the stressor effect that you can handle from exercise, is probably going to be a lot lower compared to someone who isn't dealing with all the same stressors.

So I think that's the crux of at least one piece of the question, which is like, where that spectrum comes from has a lot more to do with where you're at physiologically, as opposed to something specific to the intervention, but there are some important differences between the interventions that are worth noting, and there's a reason why, at least in my view, I would say something like sauna is very different from cold plunging, where an exercise, where, when it comes to using exercises like one of the easier examples, there's a stressor effect, of course, where this demands some amount of energy from the body, and so again, if you're under fueled, dealing with a lot of other stressors, you know, even walking could be too much, whereas for someone else, doing high intensity training five days a week could be totally fine, like it's something that they can adequately recover from, and they feel really good doing, and so they can even pair that with some resistance training or a sport, you know, that can also be totally fine for someone if they're in a place to be able to handle that, and when it comes to the exercise, it's because we recognize there's the stressor effect, but there's also some specific effects in terms of the impact of these activities on the circulatory system, on the musculoskeletal system, the fascial system, like there are unique effects of movement that will create tension on these different systems and kind of stimulate them in a way that leads to beneficial outcomes when it comes to something like cold plunges, the reason why, to me at least, this falls in a very different category is because the specific effects here tend to be, I would say, relatively harmful, or on the harmful side, not only are you creating a major stressor, which is that you're exposing your body to an extreme temperature that it's trying to maintain homeostatic balance from so it has to up regulate its body temperature to meet that, like to try to maintain like a healthy internal temperature, and that requires a ton of energy, but also the exposure to extreme cold itself will trigger the release of stress hormones to an extended amount, like beyond just the energy expenditure, like there's some specific effects there. Also, we end up with things like slowed circulatory activity, and like reduced lymphatic flow, like all sorts of things that you get as a result of like being exposed to extreme cold, as opposed to the flip side of being exposed to heat, in the case of sauna, where you tend to increase lymphatic flow, you tend to increase sweating, you tend to increase circulation, which all have their own unique benefits that are pretty notable, on top of the fact that, yes, there's a stressor effect too, which is that you're exposing your body to a high body, like to a very high temperature, and it has to try to maintain that balance, and that requires energy, but I would say that with sauna, there's like a very different balance from cold punches, because you're there are unique specific effects to sauna, and you don't have those with cold punches, or like Wim Hof breathing versus bootyco breathing.

Again, there couldn't be, there can be a stressor effect from both, but with Wim Hof, because you're creating respiratory alkalosis, you're creating a lot of additional negative specific effects to the point where I would basically say I don't think it's ever beneficial to do Wim Hof breathing, like in a, in a global sense, and I would basically say the same when it comes to cold plunges, except for one specific effect that you could argue for both of them that maybe someone could consider to be beneficial, which is this idea of like overcoming a challenge in the same way that like doing like a boot camp for the military, like there's all sorts of really harsh stress going on on the body, but you could say at the end like this was worth it because I felt like I was able to accomplish something, and this was it was like an important goal for me, like that's a that's a part of any potential goal for of different stressors, so that's a factor to consider, but when we're just talking about it more on the physical side, I don't think that there's really anything beneficial about Wim Hof breathing or cold plunges. One other throw out here to throw out here real quick is fasting, where again fasting is kind of more of a mix, you have a stressor effect, of course, because there's energy depletion, but on top of that, you also have some specific effects that are beneficial, meaning like with the main one being that you get a lot of relief in the gut, which Mike, you mentioned this earlier, like some people might feel a lot better on a fast, and that would be one of the reasons I would say that someone could feel better, and so it doesn't really make sense to put that on a spectrum in the same way that we would talk about, like exercise, because the spectrum that you know we were kind of getting at with exercises more to do with what you can handle when it comes to something like fasting, there's going to be like you could have a net benefit or net negative, because it depends on how beneficial the impact of the gut relief is, but it's still never going to be the best intervention for getting that gut relief. It still always comes with a major stressor effect. I shouldn't say never and always, but like nearly is never the best approach when it comes to improving the gut and getting gut relief, and it's always going to come with a pretty significant stressor effect. So, again, a lot of nuance here. Um, but hopefully that that helps somebody maybe categorize those things in a way that makes sense in their mind.

Theresa Piela  50:08  
Yeah, really just thinking about the cumulative effect, and I think a lot of people can tune in to notice is are doing five hit workouts a week. How do they feel, you know, if they're recovering well, and they feel amazing, their digestion is fine, their sleep is fine, they still have hair, wonderful, you know. Whereas maybe a cold plunge for really stressed out female might be getting signals right away that things are not moving in the right direction, maybe their cycle gets thrown off, maybe the rest of the day they're struggling with blood sugar stability, and you know, tuning into the side effects, but Jay, I'm really glad you mentioned the psychological benefit we get from some of these things, because I think that changes the total terrain here, you know, if someone really loves something with maybe harmful specific effects, titrating it, and because it is like it is their life, and if there's something they love, and they understand, okay, long distance running maybe has some harm. How can they buffer that in other ways? How can they bolster up their recovery and repair, and lower stress in other ways, so that they get to do what they love and find genuinely enjoyable? Maybe they're doing it with someone they, you know, there's bond, like social bonding that comes with it, or they're seeing lots of novelty running through a beautiful landscape, so spectrum nuance all over this. Mike, what do you want to add here?

Mike Fave  51:33  
I think the problem with the hormetic approach in general, it like collapses everything into this idea of stress as being the primary driver of the benefits, and I think it's actually a - I used the word before - it's like an imprecise model, because the benefits that you get from, like, a sauna versus hit versus zone two running versus resistance training, the specific, they're all from the specific effects, to a large extent, there's some areas where you, it's hard to unwind the stress component and the response that occurs, but then it's also in those areas it's difficult to fully claim that the specific effect that's tied to the stress component is actually beneficial. So I'll give a couple examples, but in general, because you have this model that, like, a little bit of stress, and then the body responding to it provides this benefit, and that's hormesis. That general idea, I think, is incorrect, and it forces you to put everything together in this basket and say rank it, and really, what you're doing, you can try to do that, but what you really have to do is for each individual, individual intervention for cold, plunge, sauna, whatever the deal is, that you need to know what their individual specific effects are. Then you need to know what their act like, how much stress they're generating on the system, and then what's that person's context. That's going to be the most important thing, is going to be how much are they going to be able to handle, how much is that specific effect that they're getting a benefit in the face of the stress that they have to with endure to generate that specific effect, and so I'll give a couple examples here. What I'm talking about with this, so let's say we take resistance training. So when you do resistance training, it is stressful because you have to expend, liberate and expend large amounts of of substrate and produce large amounts of energy, because you just massively increase your energetic demand. So, you're going to increase stress hormones when, when you do resistance training. Now, you see cortisol, norepinephrine growth, or whatever. Now, the thing is, is that is that the benefit to resistance training? No, that's actually not considered the benefit to resistance training, and the more stress hormones you see was with resistance training, it's technically worse. And then bodybuilders are actually optimizing to not have the stress hormones, they are injecting insulin, they are injecting testosterone and synthetic androgens, and they're trying to keep their cortisol levels and things like this on the lower side, prolactin on the lower side, estradiol on the lower side, or within an optimal range, but not high. So they're actually optimizing for anabolic non-stress hormones, and including, to some extent, thyroid hormone in this population. So, and then when you actually get into the research, when you look at the benefits of resistance training, it's not that you tear the muscle, and it's not that you have the stress hormones, it's that you have a tensile load, an increase of pressure applied to the muscle tissue that induces a pathway that says, hey, let's let's grow this muscle tissue further, so you increase the size of the muscle tissue, so the specific effect of resistance training in terms of increasing your muscle mass, is the benefit. The stress hormones and the muscle breakdown, they're now people are actually trying to minimize those things, because it's actually starting to bear out that it's more like that's not helpful for the process. If anything, it could be potentially harmful long term. Of the gains or decrease the amount of gains that you would actually get, so that's where, like, see, that's that's the thing, is like, you have it, you have a stress to go with it, because in order to get the load in the muscle tissue, you are going to have to liberate a bunch of substrate and put yourself in a circumstance that requires an increased energy demand, but the actual benefit is from the tensile pressure applied to the muscle tissue, and so now what you're, you have this thing, and then the question is, in the individual that you are working with, what can they actually handle?

If I have an 80 year old woman, and she's chronically fatigued, she has low bone mass, and she hasn't, you know, she hasn't really worked out in an extended period of time, she hasn't gone over 2000 steps in a decade, is is she going to handle a full resistance training routine, or is the stress from that resistance training routine, depending on how it's set up, going to crush your system? It's going to crush your system. So, in this context, that's not an appropriate intervention that she's going to go squat and deadlift, and whatever, I can modify the resistance training routine so that she has tensile load on the muscle tissue with decreased metabolic demand, and then I can progress it over time. I could do something like that. So, this is where you know I'm looking, I'm trying. You want to be clear on where the benefit is, so then I can optimize for the benefit while minimizing the downside, and under parsing those things apart is very important, instead of saying, "Oh, it's just stress, because then you're going to go try to stress this poor lady out, and then she's not going to recover, she never wants to go back to the gym again, her bone mass is going to get worse, so this is the, you know, there's the on top of that, so there's not just the muscle growth for her, it's the tensile load on the bones, and then it's the keeping the motor neurons active by having her actually work and use the her muscles and her body in general, so she maintains her her proprioceptions, which doesn't fall. These are things that are important. Those are the specific effects I'm going for, not stressing her out with HIIT workouts. So this is the this is kind of the this is one example. Another example is the sauna stuff. Do you have there's some circulatory benefits with sauna stuff, as Jay pointed to. There's potentially some detoxification benefits, depending on the type of sauna you use. If you're using like red and infrared light saunas, there could be mitochondrial benefits. But then, on the flip side, some of the other things that people are saying, hey, this is a benefit, the fact that you increase heat shock proteins, it's like it's arguable, even in the research, is that really a massive benefit, or are and then the other thing is, if you're taking the, in order to actually induce those heat shock proteins, you have to induce protein denaturation, is it complete denaturation to the point that the the the peptides are completely untangled? No, but there's enough denaturation that you have to have the response, you have to induce damage to the protein structures of the body to have this clear repair process through the heat shock proteins. So, in somebody who's, you know, pretty like, say, they have chronic fatigue syndrome and they're chronically ill, and I'm going to go put them under this, this dynamic, I don't think so. I don't know if that's really the best idea, given that state could have an athlete in the NFL, or or just a young guy who, who can like smash the sauna, or somebody who's generally healthy, deal with that effect. Sure, and then they maybe reap the rewards of some of the other things that come with sauna, some of the circulatory benefits, etc. but to say, like, oh, the protein denaturation portion is the benefit here. It's like, even in the research, it's like, maybe mechanistically, but it's not fully clear when you go go through it. And then it's for some of the other things, the circulatory benefits and stuff like that's like, yeah, that you know, some of these things could actually be beneficial, but it's like, is it because of the stress or it's because of these, these specific effects that occur, and again, I think it comes down to the specific effects specifically, and so the question is, How do we optimize for specific effects without necessarily really driving the stress to high levels, and also you're looking at that in terms in each person's context, so am I going to take this 80 year old woman and cook her in a sauna? Probably not, right? That's not the goal. Could she

Theresa Piela  59:07  
dare?

Mike Fave  59:08  
Could she use red light therapy and some infrared infrared in the winter and stuff like this, and even like not get her body temperature up to super high levels, but heat herself up a little bit with the sauna and have the light exposure and things like this and have some of their circulatory benefit and some of the sweating benefit, sure, that that's completely that's okay, but like to like try to induce this heat shock response and really get the temperature to high levels, um, you know, some of these things I would be, I'm more would be more careful about, and I think that's why people feel like when we give these answers it's like, you know, we're saying it depends, and that's that it's a hedge. It's like it's not that it's not that we're trying to hedge. The goal is not necessarily to hedge here. The goal is that there's a contextual component, and we're trying to collapse everything into this one model of stress, inducing a stress, then provides a response in that. The benefit, but I think because the model itself is forcing this perspective that isn't true to what's actually going on, it's collapsing everything into this, this dynamic that I think it doesn't really fully explain the circumstance, so that that's where I come from with it, and that's why, you know, I don't think you know, for some things like I would be on with Jay that I don't think that Wim Hof breathing is really ideal. I don't think that cold plunging is really really ideal. So, on one side of the spectrum, I would say I probably wouldn't. I wouldn't recommend those, and people ask me about them, like I'm not really a fan of that. If somebody wanted to use infrared red light therapy, and like maybe they're they were in small time in the song they can handle it fine, but like to spend long like 30 minute sessions getting really high body temps, I think that that would be an issue. Do I think people need to do multiple hit sessions? No, I actually would prefer people go and do resistance training with appropriate loads and appropriate volume that they can recover from, and then otherwise this go for walks or like engage in sports and activities? It could be swimming, it could be it could be pickleball, it could be any of these things that they enjoy and do that as their leisurely activity, so they're active and less of like you need to crush yourself with HIIT. Now, if I have some, if I have a guy who's like, 'Look, I have 15 minutes to get this done, and I have 15 minutes three days a week. Am I going to create a workout routine that you know gets the stuff done as much as I can in 15 minutes for him? If he can handle it, sure, that's fair. So, again, that's where the contextual piece comes in. But on average, yeah, I would say resistance training, walking sports, these types of activities more towards the green zone, the sauna, and short high intensity workouts more towards the yellow zone, and then your Wim Hof breathing, and your cold plunges, stuff like this, more towards the red zone, and then the fasting piece is, that's, you know, that's a tool, depending on the circumstance, depending on what's going on with a person's gut, and stuff like this. There's one other thing here, is a little bit of a tangent, but in some of these, in some of these setups, you see benefits in some of the object, like your objective markers, right?

So, somebody goes on a fast, their insulin drops, their A 1c drops, like all their lipids drop, all this stuff improves, and it's like it does, like it actually does improve, and that's in part because of weight loss, and that's also in part because you have a system that's jammed up metabolically, and for some of these people, and you're removing that substrate pressure that they're not oxidizing well, that could be fat, carbs, whole energy, and stuff like this, and so I don't want to deny that those things are there, and even for people doing keto for and carnival, like you do see that, but I also think that the one thing that has to be understood in this context is that they arguably will be problematic long term, and then you need to know that there's another side to this stuff, there's a cost to doing things that way, and that's I think what needs to be brought to the conversation. Yes, you don't eat, you lose weight, metabolic markers improve, but you don't eat, you're going to create hormonal issues long term. So, I don't think this this ends here fully justifies the means that we're going through it, especially because there's other ways to do this to minimize the downside, and that's I think the going to be the most one of the one important piece to consider for the full picture.

Theresa Piela  1:03:19  
Yeah, and even thinking about that, those downsides, I think a lot of people, with all the trends and all the ideas of what they should do to be healthy or for longevity, so often people feel a lot of resistance to doing some of the really stressful things, like cold plunging, like these HIIT workouts, and I think there's a reason for that, there's a wisdom the body is saying, yeah, you're, you're already stressed enough. What about a leisurely stroll with a friend instead? So, paying attention to what actually you want to do, what feels exciting, what feels intrinsically motivating, versus where your body's saying, I actually don't want to, I feel like I should, but I really don't want to. I think that can give us a lot of data as to where the where something might be be damaging, really damaging, we're going against the body that's saying please don't, but we're forcing to do it anyways. Any anything to add here, Jay? Before we shift into hopefully one more, maybe not

Jay Feldman  1:04:17  
yet. Just a couple other thoughts, a couple other, a couple things that Mike mentioned, I just wanted to touch on real briefly, you know, and Theresa, you mentioned this with like HIIT training versus like taking a nice stroll, and I think there's like where most people are coming from, people are looking at stressors as the way to health, and normally that's paired with under eating, not getting enough carbs, overdoing protein in a lot of circles, and a body that's like heavily, heavily stressed and is in a hypothyroid state, or dealing with low reproductive hormones, and low energy, and low mood, and trouble sleeping, and anxiety, and all these signs of the. State, and when we're in that state, reducing these stressors can be really beneficial, and the more intense stressors, like HIIT training, can be ones that people were maybe pushing really hard, and it makes sense to shy away from, but also I think it's worth highlighting the other side, which is, with time, as we are feeling better, as we've been nourished for a while, as we're a lot more resilient to stress, we can start to incorporate those things again and again. It, we want to factor in the enjoyment piece, you know, if you really like doing sprints versus if you hate doing sprints, and you really like pickleball, like both. Either of those could be good options, and hit training in, like, a class can be a fine option too, as long as it isn't excessively stressful for you, and in terms of evaluating that, you can look at your energy and mood through the rest of the day, you can look at your reproductive hormones, not just in lab work, but in terms of symptoms, you can look at how well you're sleeping, how well you're recovering, and there's a place for those things, so I think, especially HIIT training kind of gets a bad rap, especially in the pro metabolic space, because it's kind of like the poster child of over exercising and under eating, and it's like one of those things that I think a lot of people are leaning into when they can't handle it, but also I think doing intense training can be totally fine if you can, like when you're at a place where you can handle it, and some of those forms of training, like endurance training, is one that we talk about a lot, as one that it's where it's a lot easier to be dipping into the stress side, it's a lot easier to see digestive issues as a result, and hormone issues as a result, and it's one to be careful with, but as you were saying, Theresa, if you really enjoy it, that's something to consider, and also it can still be done in a healthy way. It just requires a lot of effort and being intentional as far as your diet and recovery and all of that, but it can still fit here. Just want to be intentional about it. One other thing I want to mention, which is that getting into the specific effects also gets murky here, and you know, Mike, you were talking about the benefits in terms of building muscle, which is, you know, there's the stimulation on the muscle that leads to that response, and that's definitely one, but there's also other specific effects too that are really hard to quantify, but we see them in terms of the outcomes, like we see a massive benefit of being relatively active and moving consistently throughout the day, like even walking, or they call it like activities of daily life, it could be doing the laundry and the dishes and gardening, like just basic things, versus being sedentary. There's a huge difference in health outcomes between those two things, like being sedentary on its own has a lot of negative effects, even though with the gardening, you're not really getting enough stimulus on the muscle to drive muscle growth, but we're seeing increased circulation, like there are some myofascial effects that, again, are really hard to quantify, but are likely involved here.

I think there's also inherent negative effects of just being sedentary that we're avoiding, but some of these things, again, it is murky, and it makes it really hard to kind of create that that spectrum, and I know you know the in the question Bob was saying, well, saying like overdoing it is a cop out, and it's like kind of also the only answer, it's like over exercise is too much exercise, you can't really say like there's a certain amount of exercise that's too much, other than what's too much for you, and that's defined by over exercising in the same way that with sauna, like too much is bad, and you can't really say anything outside of that, like some amount can be great, but too much is bad, and that too much is going to vary based on the individual. So, I think that's why we kind of like the last question, it's spending a lot of time unpacking what we mean by these things and how to evaluate for that, that for yourself, so that then you can create that, that answer, as opposed to the answer being 10 minutes, three times a week, is the answer, or you know, with this many steps a day is the right amount for everybody, or this amount of training is is the right amount for everybody, or the style, you know, there's there's it, that's why it's important to understand all those nuances,

Theresa Piela  1:09:02  
do we have time for one more? Are we gonna have to do another Q and A episode? I think we need another one. That I mean, I'm glad that we can take some time to give them the attention they deserve. They're, yeah, why gloss over the nuance? That's the fun of it, right? So, anyways, for next Q and A, we've got a lot saved that we can come back to. We do have time for a success story win from a follower they shared. Guys, I went through the entire carnivore rabbit hole for five years. Here's what I've learned: as someone who trains calisthenic at a high level, I was always tired. No, no matter how much fat I ate, I did everything right, perfect food, perfect electrolyte. But if I'm working an eight hour shift and training one hour, my energy is trash. Gym session is mediocre at best, because recovery is extra slow in carnivores, since your body is always in a state of stress. My sleep wasn't the best, as well, because I'm pushing myself as an athlete, and I have to work. I'm stacking on way too much stress on my body. You know what fixed it all? Carbs. Reintroducing carbs gave me so much energy, it's insane. It's death, the better energy fuel for our body. You can stay low carb if you want, but humans adapt to carbs for a long time now, and I believe it, and believe it or not, it's the better form of energy for your body. Wow, five years of misery. Ah, clapping for this person. Mike, anything to comment on here?

Mike Fave  1:10:39  
Oh, it's great. I think that I'm happy that this person, after five years of being in the rabbit hole, is willing to give it a try. I think that's very difficult if you've been low carbon or carnivore, and you've developed this narrative around that carbs are evil, to shift that is difficult. So, I'm glad that they gave it a try, and I'm glad that they're feeling feeling better overall.

Theresa Piela  1:11:03  
Yeah, Jay, what was your, what was your reaction when you got this comment?

Jay Feldman  1:11:07  
Yeah, no, I mean, I agree, it's, it's great to hear that this person's on the other side now, and I think we all always, with these comments, we feel for these people, you know, we've been there, so yeah, and also it's, it's funny how this one happened to tie in a lot with what we were just discussing, you know, the impact of stress, and obviously, if someone's not eating carbs, that what can be over training at that point is very different from what could be like over exercising for someone who's eating a lot of carbs, so yeah, that's this is a great example of that,

Theresa Piela  1:11:35  
and awesome that it was a simple fix, you know, it's not like they had extreme overlapping issues, they just needed to fuel their body, and you know, even with what seems like a really stressful work lifestyle, like everything changed. So, I love that for this person. Well done, good for listening to their hunger cues. All right, let's wrap up here and come back to some of these for another episode. Mike, where can people find you?

Mike Fave  1:12:06  
They can find me on my YouTube channel, Mike Fave, as well as my website, mikefave.com

Theresa Piela  1:12:12  
Awesome. What about you, Jay?

Jay Feldman  1:12:14  
My website is jfeldmanwellness.com tons of free resources there, and you can find me on youtube at J Falmouth Wellness, and on other social media at JF Wellness.

Theresa Piela  1:12:24  
Awesome, you can find me at Living Roots Wellness on Instagram, also on Living Roots wellness.com and tapping with T, which is now linked on Living Roots wellness.com All right, thanks everyone for tuning in. We will see you for the next show. Tata, for now,

Unknown Speaker  1:12:40  
you