Jay Feldman 0:12
Welcome to Episode 37 of the energy balance podcast, where we teach you how to live without constant hunger and cravings, fatigue, brain fog, poor sleep and all sorts of other low energy symptoms by maximizing your cellular energy. I'm Jay Feldman. I'm a health coach and independent health researcher, and joining me again today is my good friend Mike Fave. Mike and I have been studying health and nutrition together for a long time now, and Mike also draws on his experiences from working within the healthcare industry. In today's episode, we are going to be talking mostly about coffee and fasting, and in particular, we'll be talking about the pro metabolic effects of coffee that are responsible for a lot of its beneficial effects in terms of cancer, liver health, brain health, insulin sensitivity, longevity and mortality and all sorts of other benefits. We'll be talking about how we can drink coffee in a way that leads to the most improvement in our health without stress. And this is really important, because a lot of people are drinking coffee in a way that does cause stress. And we'll be talking about whether it's okay to drink coffee every single day, and even if it's okay to drink multiple cups of coffee every single day. As far as fasting goes, we'll be talking about how we can attain the benefits of fasting without the stress that fasting causes and without starving ourselves. We'll be talking about whether fasting is actually protective against cancer and actually promotes longevity, which, of course, are two, two supposed benefits that are often attributed to fasting. And we'll also talk about recent research that shows that fasting decreases muscle mass, and also the wealth of information that suggests that fasting would also cause hormonal imbalances. To check out the show notes for today's episode. Head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast you can take a look at the studies or articles or anything else that we referenced throughout today's episode, and there will be a lot of them, so definitely head over to the show notes to take a look at those studies. And if you are dealing with any low energy symptoms, perhaps you've been using fasting or coffee to try to make up for these low energy symptoms, whether that is low energy and fatigue, maybe cravings and hunger or all sorts of gut inflammation or gut symptoms, maybe you're dealing with chronic joint pain, poor sleep, hormonal imbalances, whatever it is with all of these symptoms, The key to resolving them is going to be maximizing your cellular energy. And the same situation comes into play when we're talking about chronic health conditions as well, whether that's heart disease, diabetes or cancer, as we discuss throughout today's episode. So if you are looking to resolve any of those symptoms or conditions, or you're just looking to optimize your health. Head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, where you can sign up for free energy balance mini course, where I'll walk you through the main things that you want to do to optimize your cellular energy availability, which, as I mentioned, is the key to resolving these symptoms and conditions. So to sign up for that free energy balance mini course, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, and with that, let's get started.

Mike 3:27
So Oscar asks us today, is it okay to have coffee every day? And I mean, as with all answers, it depends on if you tolerate the coffee well, but if you are tolerating coffee well and you have enough energy on board. I don't see I don't really see an issue with drinking coffee every day, and even in some of some studies, having multiple cups a day was shown protective against neurologic diseases and against multiple types of cancers, and has also been shown to be extremely protective against liver cancer. And again, you want to have a good quality coffee, and you want to make sure that you're tolerating it well, and you have energy on board. So you have it with either some cream and some sugar, if you tolerate those, or you have fruit juice with it, if you're taking shots of espresso or whatnot. So the other, the other benefits of coffee, besides, I mean, besides being protective of the liver and cancer and neurological diseases, caffeine has some beneficial effects in and of itself. Once your body gets a gets tolerance to caffeine, it doesn't necessarily jack up the adrenal glands, like a lot of people think it that effect starts to calm down, but it has some, I think it has some aromatase inhibiting effects. I'm pretty sure that it has some of those effects. Then the other thing is, some other compounds in the coffee have some anti opiate effects, so they block the effect of opiates within the digestive tract. And then there's different antioxidant compounds within coffee, or plant compounds that have a protective effect against endotoxin. So there's, there's a whole host of benefits of coffee and and of caffeine, especially if. Tolerating the coffee and the caffeine well, and you're taking it with enough nutrients and whatnot. And for I think there's some studies talking about the major source of antioxidant plant compounds, and many Westerners, diet is actually coffee. So it's it has a lot of benefits. There are some negatives to it, and that's based around, if you can't tolerate the increase in metabolism that the coffee, that the coffee brings, but there is a ton of benefits from it. I mean, there's a ton of research showing benefits from coffee that I haven't really seen so much negative research from coffee, and most of that negative research has shown when people first start taking it, when it increases metabolism, it can, it can cause a release of catecholamines like adrenaline and epine, adrenaline and norepinephrine or noradrenaline, and over time, you basically develop a tolerance to that, especially if you have enough resources on board so and I but there's a ton of benefits shown to be present with coffee, especially for the liver and especially against different cancers.

Jay Feldman 6:08
Yeah, and just to back up a little bit, as far like coffee as a whole, includes various nutrients that are actually within the coffee. You get some magnesium and some B vitamins and things. You have various polyphenols, which you mentioned, coffee being the largest or most concentrated source, or main source of antioxidants and polyphenols and bioflavonoids, and the average Western diet, which I've seen that as well. And then also, of course, there's caffeine in there. And so that's really one of the biggest factors that people are considering. And so between the caffeine and then a couple other components of the coffee, it has a metabolically stimulating effect, meaning that it it's kind of like pressing down on the gas pedal, a little bit similar to thyroid hormone would. And because of that, it can have like juxtaposing effect, depending on how, like, somebody's you mentioned, like energetic state, but depending on where someone's metabolic health is, where, for one, if they don't have enough fuel to support that increased demand, essentially, and if they don't have or if they're having trouble converting that fuel to energy, which we talk all the Time about so many different things that cause problems there, then they're not gonna respond well to coffee. They'll get really jittery. So so the effects here, that in the mainstream, a lot of people consider to be beneficial, or like they why they use coffee is for this big energy boost, and they get kind of jittery and a little hyperactive. And that's generally a sign of an increase in stress hormones, meaning that either someone's not eating enough fat, carbs, calories as a whole, or they're not able to effectively convert the food that they're eating into energy. And because of that, when you're kind of stepping out the gas pedal with the caffeine and the coffee as a whole, you're causing a stressful effect, which is, again, this is not beneficial. Or I would say, Well, yeah, I would say that that's harmful. And the fact that we see benefits with coffee, despite that in the average person, probably means that there are a lot of other benefits there that that outweigh it. But what we're not looking for like that's not what we're looking for when somebody's using coffee, that would be a sign that, as you mentioned, somebody's not really tolerating it. But you can improve your tolerance to coffee by fixing the things that support energy production, or fixing the factors that are involved in energy production, and also by making sure you're getting enough food and fuel. And that can mean getting enough food throughout the day or week, but also within the meal that you're having that coffee with, or what exactly you're having that coffee with. So if you're starting your day off with just coffee, then that's a really, generally a very good way to increase your stress hormones right when you wake up, which what we really want to do when we wake up is bring those stress hormones down, since that's normally when they peak. So if you are not responding well to coffee, and make sure that you're having it with enough carbohydrates, especially, and ideally with a meal as well, so that it digests a little slower, and maybe try having a smaller amount and things like that, so that you're not having that jittery effect or that hyperactive effect. And instead, what you should notice is maybe more energy, but more of a relaxed energy that you know people talk about when they have very good caffeine tolerance to even be able to have able to have coffee before, like bedtime, before going to sleep, and it'll actually help them relax. And which, I mean, I've experienced that, and helps me, like, helps somebody fall asleep. And so that would be, and it wouldn't have the same effect during the day. You know, it's not going to, not necessarily going to make you fall asleep in the morning. But it shouldn't have that kind of hyperactivity, jittery effect. If it does, that's a sign of of increasing stress hormones. So, so those are things

Mike 9:49
It also takes time to develop tolerance to to caffeine and to coffee in general.

Jay Feldman 9:54
Um, it can. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Mike 9:57
Much for example, for you, Utah. Rate coffee pretty well. But for me, like no matter how much for me, it takes time for me to develop tolerance, and it does make me jittery in general. And I think that is just related to individual, individuality with exposure to coffee and but for some people, they my dad drinks coffee every single day, and he won't go without it because, I mean it, it helps him function. Well, he feels great when he's on it. He's not jittery, he's not sweaty, he's not he's been drinking it for 40 years, right? So I think there is some talk, there is some individuality with it, but where my mom won't touch it at all, right?

Jay Feldman 10:33
Yeah, there's definitely individuality as far as caffeine clearance and tolerance. And I know that there are some potential genetic factors there that are talked about when they do some of those, you know, like the 23andme genetic testing that has to do with caffeine clearance. So I think that that could be involved. Definitely, as far as you know, another factor, as far as caffeine clearance, that would be separate can also be liver function, where, regardless of if you're eating enough, if your liver is not functioning well, then you might not be able to process that caffeine Well, it might be sticking, sticking around for a long time, and it would, in the long term, probably still have a beneficial effect on your liver function, and you might actually be able to have improved tolerance over time due to that, but in the short term, you might be getting some stress effects. So ideally, I would try to do it in a way that doesn't lead to those stress effects in the short term. But yeah, so as you mentioned, as well, as far as tolerance goes to caffeine, I think it's a pretty it doesn't take long where it's like two weeks. I think I've seen a few days. I thought I'm gonna pull it up right now.

Mike 11:31
Well, while you pull it up, the other thing that coffee is also helpful for that a lot of people don't realize, is it, it tends to help with digestion. So it can simulate, I think it simulates gallbladder contraction, it stimulates stomach acid production, and then also can stimulate, for a lot of people, bowel movement. So it can help with increasing bowel regularity and and some of, specifically in some certain doctors points like in some of like Max Gerson talks about, or even Dr Pete talks about the importance of bowel regularity, and then when we when we think about it in general, talking about bowel regularity and whatnot, it's exposure to endotoxin. And coffee also has some protective effects against endotoxin directly, and that's through, not only through the plant compounds, but through caffeine and other compounds within the coffee itself. So there's a lot of benefits to coffee. Oh, the mainstream media likes to belabor the negative effects of it, but there is a lot of benefits with coffee, especially with tolerance, and it's I haven't really seen many, many negative studies with coffee, just besides the increase in catecholamines and people who are coffee naive.

Jay Feldman 12:43
Right, just basically before they've adjusted, or also probably before they've, you know, they're not eating enough with it and having some some metabolic issues. But yeah, it definitely does have some noteworthy effects on gut health that's been shown to improve symptoms in people with IBD and colitis and lower serotonin production in the gut. Protect against various forms of damage, gut wise. And then also, as you said, protect against endotoxin, especially in the brain. And, yeah, also stimulate stomach, stimulate stomach acid production. So it's definitely really helpful as far as the gut goes, and as far as the, I mean, as far as the brain goes, it's generally very protective, reduces inflammation and improves the integrity of the blood brain barrier. It's, yeah, it's all around, you know, I think Ray Pete has called it an adaptogen, or, I think he actually refers to it as a nutrient, as if, you know, like of any other vitamin or mineral, which, I mean, according to like, his criteria for it, or the criteria for those things that you know may as well fit that definition. And I did just find that study, it was showing that there's the adaptation to caffeine and tolerance took only about four days. But of course, a lot of that, as you mentioned, is going to be Individual.

Mike 14:03
Yeah, so. And the other thing I want to point out for some people is some people mentioned that they tolerate, actually, pure caffeine better than they tolerate coffee. And so while coffee has caffeine in it, it also has, like I mentioned previously, a compound that inhibits, or has, like an anti opiate effect. So if you have a decent amount of opiogenic foods in your diet, like wheat or dairy or soy, and then you start using coffee, it can block the inhibitory effects or the opiate effects of those foods on top of having caffeine. So it could be like a double like a, like a, I guess, a double whammy, like an increased effect, just from that, on top of what it can and stimulating the the adrenergic hormones. So, like, it has a, it can have a bunch of effects simultaneously, and it can be pretty potent for some people. So and then it does have a pretty potent effect on stimulating liver and. Times, not not your alt and AST in terms of, like, liver damage, but actually, like, some of the detoxification pathways within the liver. And it's also why, partly why, it's protective of the liver.

Jay Feldman 15:11
Yeah, yeah. And it's, like, very, very protective against, you know, it's been shown to be protective against alcoholic liver injury and support liver health and, and, yeah, I mean, and, you know, we talk about all these things as an intricate system right now, we're kind of just listing some of the details. But it, you know, it's not independent. Its ability to improve insulin sensitivity and stimulate our metabolism and its anti cancer effects are not separate. And those things are not separate from the effects on liver health or on all cause mortality, or anything else like that. Yeah. And one thing that, you know, we talked about all these benefits of coffee and how to use it properly and all of that, but one thing that we didn't really address was kind of, I think, the crux of the question, which is, is it okay to have coffee every single day? And it's a really good question, because in addition to, like, some of some things that are talked about negatively in the mainstream, this idea that we would become addicted to the caffeine, and if we don't have it, then we start, you know, if somebody is so addicted to something that when they don't have it, they get a headache, does that mean that we shouldn't be using it? And the short answer I would give there is no, that's not what it means. And what I would say also is that just because, you know, when we have something that's beneficial and we've adapted to it in a way that we are, that our bodies are extremely used to it, and it assuming that it is beneficial, what that, what we're basically saying is that our bodies have improved their function to a state where they're they're expecting a high level of metabolism and a high level of fuel and a very optimal environment. And so that then, when you take something that is a main part of that environment out, whether that's coffee or carbohydrates or social interaction or whatever it is, it's not a bad thing to then feel bad from that. You know, so like to so this idea that we shouldn't be dependent on anything, I mean, I'm on one hand, it's like, so it's ridiculous, because, of course, we're dependent on all sorts of things. And that's not like dependence is not a bad thing, especially if these things are very simple to us. Yeah, exactly.

Mike 17:17
I mean, and I I guess that, because the thing is, is gets in a sticky semantic area, with, with the idea of addiction, and I know that's why you're tiptoeing around, but basically with, and the thing is, is, I don't think coffee is necessarily addicting. When people say that they get headaches from not taking coffee. I mean, there's a known effect unknown, and that's because of the effect with thedenosine, where basically coffee has, I think it's the antagonizing effect on adenosine. And so then it basically builds up. And then you, when you stop using coffee, because of the adjust in that homeostasis there, or basically the adjusting the balance of what's going on, it causes you to to develop a headache. And so I don't know if it's necessary that makes it necessarily addictive. I mean, there's a lot of compounds, when you stop using like, you you may get a negative effect, because your body has been like there's some studies talking about a rebound effect of stopping using aspirin and things and and things like that. So, but the thing is, is if you have a compound that's necessary, so for example, fruit, if I'm drinking a lot of pineapple juice, and it's beneficial for me. And then I stopped drinking pineapple juice because I don't want to be dependent upon drinking pineapple juice. I just stop it all together, I mean, or I stop drinking it every day, and then I don't feel well because now I have a caloric deficit from not having enough pineapple juice, or I stop sugar, or something along those lines, the idea just doesn't make any sense, especially with with a beneficial effect. If you're having a beneficial effect from a substance that you're using consistently, and especially if it doesn't really show, like, extreme addictive potency. I mean, I don't really see many people going out of their minds, be like losing or completely losing it because they don't have coffee. I mean, I've seen people Jones really bad for cigarettes, but even, even with the the aspect of of coffee, I mean, people, they don't have it for a few days, they're like, I need my coffee, but it's not, you know, I don't see the extreme dependence with it. And then, if it has the beneficial effect, why would you not want to be dependent on it anyway? You know, if you're if sugar has a beneficial effect, why would I just want to cut it out like you if, if there was a negative effect to it, like taking a ton of opiate opiogenic or opiate narcotic medications like morphine or Percocet, where there's known, like, tons of negative effects from it, from these medications, then, Yeah, having a dependence on that is not good. But as far as coffee or sugar or whatever, I don't think it. I think it's kind of hard to, number one, classify those as addictions or extremely addictive. And then number two, justify if you, if you do classify them as developing a dependence, getting rid of that dependent. Because they are beneficial. It's like, why would you want to, why would you want to stop using something that's beneficial for you?

Jay Feldman 20:07
Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we don't think about that as is. Nobody would say that you have a water addiction because you feel better when you have enough water. Or, yeah, that you have an exercise addiction, because on days that you exercise, you feel good, and when you don't exercise, you don't feel as good, obviously, like there is something we said if you're drinking too much water, doing too much exercise, those aren't necessarily...

Mike 20:26
Or drinking way too much coffee, right?

Jay Feldman 20:28
Exactly. But as you're saying, like with the semantic side of it, we called an addiction. When one is something that we see as a negative thing, but when it's something that we see as a positive thing, that we don't call it an addiction. It's just, it's necessary, it's a nutrient or whatever. So it is very much semantic, and considering that coffee is beneficial, similar to other things, like, as you mentioned, getting enough food calories, it's not like you have a calorie addiction, like you have certain needs that you're fulfilling. In this case, you've mentioned pineapple juice. So yes, because it's beneficial. I don't think that even if you were to call it an addiction, it's a bad addiction, if you want to think of it that way, our and this goes again into this idea of adaptation, and we'll have to have a podcast that really digs into adaptation and hormesis and that whole idea. But what I would say, just to kind of put it succinctly, is when we're adapting to beneficial stimuli, it is always going to result in a closer to optimal outcome. And I would put coffee in that category, assuming it's used properly. The context is right, yeah.

Mike 21:32
And the other thing I mentioned about those is, there is a, there is a, like an optimal usage, usage zone for these, for these compounds. I mean, as much as I love pineapple juice and I drink it every day, I don't think I would feel well if I drink three gallons of pineapple juice in one day, you know. So this isn't necessarily a statement, to go out there and just drink excessive amounts of coffee and only drink coffee there. The whole idea was that we put in the beginning was setting up the context of, is kind is coffee beneficial? Yes, in this context, do you have enough fuel on board? You have enough nutrients, or are you tolerating it well? And then the other thing to keep in mind is a lot of people reach for substances like coffee or like cigarettes or aspirin. I mean, maybe not. Maybe the aspirin is a small head, but Coffee and Cigarettes for periods of time where they're under stress or where they need a boost or some type of aid. So and the thing is, is I don't see a problem with reaching for some sort of compound, and like we just talked about in the previous question, looking for something to help you sleep on nights that you can't sleep, to get you through that that situation. I think that is adaptive. That is, that is, and it, it's adaptive if it's done the right way, and the purpose is to make it an adaptive process that that's done the right way, where you're reaching for substances and compounds that have a beneficial effect and help to mitigate the demand or the stress of that individual moment or or context that you're facing. I mean, I don't if you have to, if you have to farm, is it easier for you to put the whatever, the what's it called the plow on your back, versus getting having another animal to use it like, or if you have to meet, you have to write a long essay. Is it better to if you know that coffee is going to help you get through it, whether you have it some cream and some sugar, to just say, drink your coffee and get through the essay, than it is to sit there and just try and really, like struggle through it? I mean, I don't. I think using things for it to solve a problem within a specific you know, within a specific guideline or within a specific optimal usage is helpful and beneficial, especially within you know, when it has a lot of beneficial effects. Now, if you're really stressed out from a long day and you want to go home and take a bunch of Percocets, I don't think that that's a good idea. And the reason why is not necessarily because you're using something to help the situation, but more so because the thing that you are using has a whole bunch of negative effects downstream, and it's the negative effects far outweigh the initial beneficial effects. And so I think that it's helpful to look at whether, I guess the idea would be whether something's adaptive versus something's negatively addictive. I don't know, however, whatever semantic, whatever term you want to come up with for that, but I think it's important to like, I know, for example, if I have eat something that messes up my stomach and I'm not feeling well, I take an aspirin because it's it helps with the with the issue, if I can't sleep at night because, because I worked a really long day, or it's really late and I have to get up the next morning to be in the hospital. I'll, I've, there's times where I've used benebut. I mean, do what I want to use something like benebut Every day. No, but every substance has its context, and so that's why it's important to understand what the context of is of that substance, what it's used for, and what are the, what are the benefits to. And what are the negatives to it. And then make your like, make it a informed, an informed, thoughtful decision about what you're doing and what substance you're using and how you're using it. And then, because I was just classifying something as addictive, oh, it's addictive, so I won't use it. It doesn't or, Oh, I have to keep using it. So I won't use it. It's like, I have to, if you start using thyroid, and you start feeling a lot better, and you solve all your symptoms, like, oh, I never want to use want to use thyroid, because then I'm gonna have to continue, continue to use it going forward and whatnot. It's like, well, you might as well have the beneficial effect while you have it then. And then, when you get to the point where you can't afford it, or you can't get it, or you can't use it, then it's like, oh, then you worry about it, then.

Jay Feldman 25:38
Right, well, and I mean, I know Danny Roddy has talked about that where, I think he said that, you know, a lot of times, the first thing, and people ask about thyroid is, like, when do I get off? Or how can I get off? As if, but, and as you're saying, it's like, you don't need to get off of something that's helping you, assuming that it has a net beneficial effect overall, and is bringing you closer to that optimal, high metabolic state. And in the case. And, I mean, I don't want to get into in depth, into the whole thyroid hormone situation, because that's a whole other topic, but it's it falls into a similar category. And, you know, and there's a difference here too, between reaching for these things as a crutch and using them to get by without addressing anything underlying. So if you're reaching for, you know, if you're using five cups of coffee a day, or using, you know, a ton of thyroid throughout the day, or ton of aspirin all the time, yeah, that might be a good like thing to go for if you're going to go for something. But if you're just doing that and not addressing the fact that you need that much of these substances, then that's might not be the best situation either. I mean, if, if you're using coffee for energy all the time, and needing tons of coffee for that, and if you didn't have it, you would be, like, really hurting, then there might be some other things that are off. And I just want to reiterate, too, I'm just throwing random numbers out. I mean, some people five cups of coffee, maybe that's perfect for them. And, you know, they would be fine without it. They just feel better with it. And so that's fine too.

Mike 27:02
But, yeah, but yeah, but the context is important, because there's some times in your life where no matter how good your diet is, you just have circumstances or no matter how, how well you make sure that your light at night is red, and you have your red light blocking glasses, and you woke up early and got some sunlight, you're just having a hard time sleeping for whatever reason, sometimes it's helpful to use something for that situation, but again, and it just, it's important to recognize whether you're using something all the time, rather than addressing an underlying problem versus you're using you have a you have a tool in your toolbox that you use for a certain circumstance when it comes up. And again, each each tool can be used differently. Coffee can be used every day. Phenibut shouldn't be used every day. So and so it's like in a situation where you're requiring something to sleep every day, the question be looking at the underlying process there, and then you can use something in the meantime to help you sleep, as long as it's a compound that you understand you're not going to be addicted to do, and that you're not going to develop withdrawal and tolerance to so that you can't sleep once you come off it, because now you're increasing your problem. And so there's, it's a very it. It's nuanced. There's a nuance to the area. It's about finding how to optimally use something for that context. And that's why it's kind of hard to make perfect recommendations or specific recommendations for everyone. Just like with the diet, it really comes down to what's your context, and then what are the benefits and the risk and weighing the situation. You know, for one night you can't sleep because of whatever reason. You went out and you had a family, you went out to dinner with your family, and you all stayed late and you had a you were enjoying a good time, but tomorrow you have to work early. Sometimes you make that sacrifice. But if you can ease the pain of that situation or or not even ease the pain, but I guess, ease the negative effect of that situation by taking something that helps you sleep or because you ate too late, then why would you not do that, especially if it's not addictive and there's no long term negative effect to it, and it has beneficial effects in general. So that's that would be like, if it has mostly positives, like a huge upside to it, why would you not if it The upside is so large, is like with coffee, for a lot of people, the upside is, especially on top of a good diet. Can be very high. It's just such a high upside with such a very like, a minimal low side, especially if you use the right way. Like, why would you not do it? I just don't. That doesn't make any sense. Whereas other things have such a slow has such a small upside for such a large negative or a large downside, that it's just like, why would you use that to solve this problem?

Jay Feldman 29:35
Right? And I just want to reiterate this is coming from you who doesn't drink coffee because you don't tolerate it. So just to emphasize the individuality, both from person to person, but also within a single person at different points in their lives, where at certain times they might really benefit by not having coffee, and at other times it might really support them. So yeah, so much of it is context dependent. One other thing you had mentioned in kind of talking about all this. Is something being adaptive, or adapting to something? And I just wanted to make a clarification there, which is semantic, just that adapting to something does not mean the adaptation is beneficial. We can have, we can and do all the time, have like adaptations that are, I mean that have that are resulted in that negative situation, that adaptation is always helpful, where, if you're not eating anything, and you produce stress hormones, which we which are often called the adaptive hormones. Adaptive stress hormones, it will help you survive at that point, but there's a long term negative effect. So I just want to clarify that semantically, just that we like adaptation itself is very beneficial, but we want to be adapting to things that support us metabolically, support us on the energy standpoint, as an indicator of things that are going to support our health and lead us to a more optimal state. So those are the types of things we want to be adapting to, as opposed to adapting to something like starvation, which is going to drastically decrease our metabolism and our overall function, which we don't want.

Mike 31:06
No, we definitely don't want. Yeah. I mean, I don't have any Go ahead, yeah.

Jay Feldman 31:12
Well, I was gonna say is actually a good bridge into the next question, talking about adapting to good things versus bad things. Katie asked about fasting, she says, as far as fasting goes, you think that there are some circumstances in which it still has value. For example, in someone with cancer, would prolonged fasting maybe shrink or destroy cancer entirely? Or if somebody has really great energy production, could some kind of carb cycling or fasting serve any sort of cancer prevention or provide any longevity benefits. And she also mentioned that she's just struggling with the idea that occasional or targeted fasting doesn't have any benefits, but she understands why it's not something we might want to do regularly, and it's a really great question. It's actually one that I get a lot in various iterations. Sometimes it's coming in the form of, like, seasonal eating, where it's like, oh, wouldn't there be benefits for during certain periods of the year, for certain sets of months, to have very low carbs, or to avoid fruits, or, you know, our ancestors wouldn't have had food all the time. So maybe we should fast just one day a week if we're healthy, but if we're not healthy, then we shouldn't and so the I definitely want to talk about some of the details here, but just, you know, we kind of just touched on the bigger picture side here, which I think encompasses it well, which is that when we're adapting to something that's harmful, it is always going to lead to a decrease in metabolic function, a decrease in overall health, lower energy availability, which also comes in the form of decreased thyroid activity and reproductive hormones and cognition, all of that. So and then, on the contrary, when we're adapting to good things, the opposite is happening. So this idea that small amounts of these harmful things might actually be helpful occasionally is this idea of hormesis, and I've written a couple articles about this that I'll, I'll link to. And one of these days, we'll have a podcast, or several podcast, podcast series talking about it, because it's, it's, yeah, I mean, it's a huge, like, umbrella. It's a huge overarching concept, and it also ties into the idea of, like, various ideas within evolution. And so it's kind of convoluted, so we'll have to break it down one of these days. But the point here being that fasting has some negatives for sure, and also has some benefits. We'll dig into those details. What I'll say, just kind of as an overview, is that we want to get those benefits through routes that don't cause as much stress as fasting does. Fasting causes a considerable amount of stress. It's basically short term starvation or long term if you're doing a long term fast, and there are negatives to that in that we will adapt to that stress, and that's not a good thing. I mean, like it's a good thing, because otherwise we would die, but it's it's not a good thing as far as our overall health is concerned. What I'm saying is that we would rather adapt than not adapt, but we don't want to have to adapt to that stimulus in the first place, because that is going to lead to decreased function long term.

Mike 34:09
And with fasting, especially if you're already compromised.

Jay Feldman 34:12
Exactly, exactly. And so that's a that's kind of an example, is it's not like it would have a dichotomous effect in somebody who's not healthy versus healthy where, oh, it's only bad. And if you're not healthy, if you're healthy, if you're healthy, then it's good. In both cases, it's pushing you down a notch. It's just if you're healthy, it doesn't like you can kind of recover from it and not have such you have more notches to lose Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so in talking about fasting, more in particular, like more in specific, is that some of the main benefits that have been shown in the research, as far as why fasting is beneficial, have to do with the gut, which, of course, we talk about all the time, how endotoxin is basically involved in everything that is harmful, and all sorts of chronic health conditions and all sorts of issues, and it's one of the main. Inhibitors of respiration, of energy production. And so when we fast, if somebody were to fast, they would reduce endotoxin exposure, which is a huge benefit for somebody who has a considerable amount of endotoxin exposure. And it's another reason why a lot of people have benefits on a low carb diet, for example. But I mean, another thing that I like to say as far as fasting goes is that if you're if you are eating such bad food that you feel better when you don't eat at all, it's probably a sign that what you're eating isn't helping you so much, or that you have some underlying issue where you're not able to use that food properly. And yeah, so what I would say is that the benefits from fasting as a whole, come from the benefits of in terms of gut health, or in terms of just avoiding some toxic things that you're eating, which might not even have to be gut specific. It could just be polyunsaturated fats and heavy metals and all sorts of other factors. So in general, so in general, we would want to attain those benefits by fixing our diet, making sure that we're eating really good foods, fixing our gut health, where we can have those benefits without the stress of not eating, which is directly and powerfully harmful, so and powerful As far as that stress goes. Now just to connect that to cancer really quickly. Yes, some like, there are several reasons why fasting may be beneficial in terms of cancer. One is because of those benefits that I just mentioned as far as gut health goes. The other is just that I don't want to you know, cancer is a whole other topic that we will have to have a extensive discussion on at some point. But when we look at things that kill cancer, basically anything that will kill a healthy cell will also kill a cancer cell. And we know that a lot of things that kill cancer cells are extremely toxic, for example, chemo and radiation, which are most commonly used, and this isn't I mean, for somebody who's coming from the conventional standpoint, they might be, they might have a reflex right now where we're saying that these things are toxic, but that's not controversial. I mean, if you look at like, I don't know when, when these things are administered, you've got people in hazmat suits, like they're a crazy one.

Mike 37:20
Seriously, you have to wear, like, two or three pairs of gloves, and you have to fully gown up, because just and and wear a mask and everything, because just inhaling the substances are that toxic. Just touching them are toxic so and I mean, even some of the radiation treatments, like when they insert radioactive pellets in certain people, for certain, certain diseases, you essentially have to stay away from that person. And, like, completely stay away from if they do it in the for, like, prostate or whatever, whatever is, whatever way they're doing it for, you have to, like, stay away from them. For whatever's going on. And then the radiation in general, even with people that you'll see, it causes, like, massive amounts of fibrosis, which is, like, extremely obvious sign of serious, serious inflammation and damage, um, just on people who have, like, if they have throat cancer, they'll just, they'll radiate their throat and, like, their upper shoulders, like I've had patients or people with upper their entire upper shoulder girdle and all of their neck got completely destroyed after that autonomic dysfunction, because all the autonomic nervous system, the little what is it? The simple, the ganglia that line are near the spine got damaged. The muscles got fibros. There's serious nerve damage. They wind up getting immune system issues that develop into different like lymphomas down the line like I don't think a lot of people realize that one of the number one side effects of radiation is cancer, and then the some of the side effects of chemotherapy are similar or even extreme, or much more toxic to the extent that they can actually just kill you. So yeah, those if you're having a gut reaction to chemotherapy and radiation being called toxic. Number one, read a little bit about it, or and and, or number two, go see a patient who's just gone through 10 rounds of chemo and radiation. It completely wipes people out. It can. And a lot of people are non compliant with continuing with the medications or finishing the treatment because of how damaging and how toxic and how how much it destroys them. I just, I know, I interject, interrupted. I'm sorry. I've seen it on people, and I've seen what the medications do. And my experience, it seems like in some instances, the treatment is worse than what's actually going on. And I have family members with cancer, and I've seen their responses to the medication. They have the cancer throughout their body currently, and then they look i I was fine before I started taking the medication. I didn't feel anything before I started taking the medication, and then I started taking the medication, and I developed all these issues, and I felt terrible. So I told the doctor I had to stop. I've seen that with a few family members so and also people that I've worked with just the. Medic. They start there, okay, they have cancer, okay, and then they take the medication, and then they're in a whole other world, and they do surgery, chemo and radiation, and they're really in another world. They're just, it can, and it ages people badly. So I think, and I'm not, not to scare people from doing it, but just That's my personal experience with it.

Jay Feldman 40:18
Yeah, yeah, things to definitely be aware of. And, you know, one of these days, we'll have to talk about what someone might want to do for cancer, why certain treatments might be better than others, and and all of that. But the reason why that's so important to mention now is because the this overarching idea that just that something killing cancer is a good thing, I think, is not A, not accurate, not a good way to look at it. And chemo and radiation are just a good example of the best killers you could say, of cancer, but also some of the most harmful, damaging, toxic things that you could even get...

Mike 40:55
Killers of other cells in your body.

Jay Feldman 40:57
Right.

Mike 40:58
I think Ray Pete said it at one point, he said, having like an alligator bite off your arm can also cure cancer. No. So it's like you have a tumor on your arm, and alligator eats your arm and you don't have cancer anymore. I mean, it was a joke. It was said like tongue in cheek, because this having cancer is indicative of systemic state. And I think the question is rooted in that assumption already, to some extent, I mean, to understand that there isn't a systemic stay on, and maybe some type of lifestyle change or dietary change might be able to enact a difference in that systemic state, and then also, then thus enacted difference in the cancer. But, yeah, I mean, just because something killed. And the thing is, I don't think a lot of people realize cancer cells are pretty easy to kill in a dish.

Jay Feldman 41:44
So it's, No, they aren't, like, very strong.

Mike 41:46
Not sturdy. No, there's just a ton of them, and they have a fast replication rate, and depending on what the cancer is, and some of them are hard to get to and so it's more like, just because something Kills Cancer doesn't mean that it's necessarily helpful for cancer, and especially when you start healthy at all, or healthy at all, and but then also when you start looking at some of the studies where it's like, well, it also does this to other cells. So if you start, if you're I would more likely want to see a compound that killed cancer or affected the systemic system in some sort of way that got rid of cancer without damaging the actual healthy cells, because a lot of the chemo and radiation just are like, blindly go in and destroy all rapidly dividing cells. That's why people's hair fall out. That's why their immune system completely collapses, and they have to be isolated for months on end, and everybody who goes and sees them has to wear protective gear because they have no immune system anymore, or they need bone marrow transplants. It's the treatment. Those treatments are extremely damaging, so the goal will be to find something that can either shift the systemic disposition of the system to a better way so that the cancer does not thrive anymore or is reverted back in this i It's kind of hard to talk without going into the whole underlying process, but at the same time, doesn't damage the normal, healthy cells that are still functioning somewhat normally.

Jay Feldman 43:17
Right, right And, yeah, and that's a whole, like a whole other huge topic that, like, we would really want to dig into, as far as even the perspective of, as you're saying, it's, it's, it's like, we don't just want to focus on the things that are killing or destroying cancer cells, especially considering that those things typically are generally destructive overall, and instead considering what leads to the cancer formation in the First place, and why, and whether the cancer itself is actually the problem. But so in regard to fasting as either being anti cancer or cancer preventative, I would say that just because it is something that has potentially been shown to destroy cancer or kill cancer cells does not make it a good thing. There's also, along with this, this idea that cancer thrives on like only can use glucose as a fuel, which, there's been considerable evidence showing that that's not at all the case. It uses various amino acids as fuel and fats and ketones as well. So when people talk about starving cancer.

Mike 44:20
No, you really can't. You're not gonna starve cancer by not eating carbs, really, right?

Jay Feldman 44:25
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of the same idea as killing it. It's like, what, what dies first, or, this case, what starves first and, and

Mike 44:31
The other thing is, like, you couldn't actually starve your body of any of those things regardless, because you're always gonna have carbs ready, even if you're not eating carbs and fats available, if you're not eating fats and protein available. If you're not eating proteins, it's just, you're just going to liberate it from your own body. So, I mean, you'll just break down amino acids to produce glucose, right? So it's not really, you know, it's not, that's not really going to solve the problem.

Jay Feldman 44:58
Right, Yep. And so. I'm assuming most people who are I'm not sure what exactly the idea here was as far as fasting and cancer, but I'm assuming most people who are supporting that idea are either supporting it from the standpoint that fasting will increase fat oxidation so and decrease glucose availability, which we just mentioned, doesn't really bear any weight here. The other thing too is that fasting will activate all the stress systems that any other quote, unquote, hermetic stressor would. And a lot of those things are considered to be anti cancer because they are part of this stress, stress death pathway that destroys cells. So doesn't make it a good thing from that standpoint, either, and the same thing from Go ahead...

Mike 45:44
I was gonna say there's studies that show elevations in cortisol and decreases in thyroid hormone, elevations in the catecholamines, adrenaline and noradrenaline and growth hormone, and then decreases in androgens and decreases In some of the protective steroids with fasting. And then there's studies that show decreases in weight. But I think a recent study came out and showed that while weight decreased, muscle mass decreased and like lean mass decreased, and fatty acid tissue, or fat tissue, actually increased, which is indicative of a shift in metabolism and a change into this other, the other metabolic pathway, a stress pathway, that is literally what cortisol does. It causes a loss of lean mass with an increase in fat tissue, particularly centrally. And I mean, that's like a known effect, like you open any textbook that talks about a glucorticoid and that's what it does. So when you start and elevate it with fasting, okay, yeah, you're, you might, you're going to lose weight, but what type of weight are you losing? And I know, because a lot of people use fasting, mainly for the weight loss, because the whole idea of the calories and calories out, but again, and then the other thing to mention with that is you don't want to chronically elevate cortisol, or even, I don't even think an acute elevation of cortisol, done on purpose is really helpful, especially for something like cancer, because cortisol has a known immunosuppressive effects. And a lot of people were talking about for a while the studies that showed in fasting, like a complete renewal of your immune system and whatnot. And it's like, Well, I think that's indicative of like, damage to the immune system from from fasting, where you, like, lose X number of immune cells and then it's re regenerated in an X period of time. So I don't think it's like I don't think it's really a good thing to do, especially at the longer term fast. The shorter term fast obviously are a little less stressful, but the long ones seem pretty stressful. So you're elevating a lot of damaging hormones, but again, as you mentioned previously, you're also eliminating if you have a poor diet or a poor lifestyle, you know you're eliminating high amounts of polyunsaturated fatty acids, whatever crap food that you are eating, and then also lowering endotoxin. And then the other thing that that actually has been shown to have benefit for some for some cancer stuff, is eliminating some certain amino acids from the diet. And you see that with longevity, the longevity studies, as well as eliminating some the inflammatory amino acids, and so those can actually like tryptophan and cysteine and methionine. So that can actually be helpful. But the question is, do you really need to do that? Do you really need to lower all your caloric intake to do that.

Jay Feldman 48:16
Right. So we had talked about that the amino acid balance in a previous episode talking about aging and lifespan, I'll link to that. But I think maybe what you were about to get at was that if we balance out those amino acids with the protective ones, glycine, proline, hydroxyproline, it mitigates those effects, as opposed to just needing to avoid them all.

Mike 48:36
Or if you, or you could, if you having something like cancer, and you're in like, an, like, a very dire situation, maybe not fasting and lowering calories, but maybe decreasing your protein intake for some period of time, specifically from the inflammatory amino acids. So adjusting the balance that you have a much lower intake of methionine, tryptophan and cysteine, and a higher intake of glycine and whatnot, and within maintaining a certain protein balance that I think would be a better strategy overall. And that's that within strategies that have been used diet and dietary strategies for cancers, like the Gerson program and whatnot, is the program, they specifically mentioned lowering protein intake for a set period of time. But what they mentioned is that, is that and the body, he said, at least what they wrote about, could handle it, but only for a set period of time. After a set period of time, protein intake had to be brought back to normal with with Lean animal products. And there was, there was still some protein intake in the diet. It was just lower. But there was never a fasting period. There was still intake of juices from fruits and vegetables and then making sure that all your vitamins and minerals were taken in appropriately. And then they were also using thyroid hormone whatnot. So there was really a focus on making sure that you're getting enough nutrition and not just not eating anything. There was specific things eliminated. And I. Think that that's important, because especially when you start to look at the negative effects of fasting. I mean, everybody talks about mTOR, this decreasing mTOR, and all these, these obscure pathways and whatnot for fasting and the supposed benefits, but you see those pathways elevated in stressful situations as well. So it's sort of, I mean, the like, what the goal would be to to eliminate some of the the negative, to to get some of the beneficial effects that fasting provides, while not having to suffer from the negative effects that fasting provides, and so having adequate glucose from fruits and fruit juices and certain vegetables and things like that. And nutrients from those would be helpful throughout the whole time, if you're going to, if you were going to take undertake something for cancer, some more extensive program, and making sure you're getting, maybe have a period of time where you're fasting from certain amino acids, but then eventually adding protein back in. And then so again, it that would be my main focus. And then obviously, the fruits and vegetables help with the endotoxin component and and whatnot. So that would be the main focus on, on my standpoint, with the fasting, I don't see the idea of just, let's just get rid of food all together, and because it solves XYZ, and like this minuscule pathway, it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see, I don't see it as beneficial when you can still eat and provide nutrition to the body and have these detoxification pathways and and get rid of some of these inflammatory effects.

Jay Feldman 51:30
Well, from the alternative perspective, it's those pathways that are supposed to be where you get the benefits from fasting, and that's that hormesis idea that you need to create some stress so that you can stimulate autophagy and all of these kind of backup pathways and systems. And again, I'll reference those hormesis articles. But in general, we don't need to be doing things that stimulate those things, the things that like we those sorts of processes, will function properly. In someone who's generally healthy metabolically. And the things that stimulate those sorts of stress pathways are stressful, and when we adapt to them, it does lead to those long term costs. And so as you said, we can get the benefits without those costs Exactly. And that's the goal, right? Exactly. And I wanted to touch on a couple other things that you mentioned. One was that the fasting study in terms of weight loss, what they found was in that in the group that was fasting, they did lose weight, but the vast majority of that weight was lean body mass, meaning muscle, and that was such a surprising and impactful result that the researcher, who is a big proponent of fasting and had been fasting for years, stopped once they got once he, like, found the results, or once they evaluated the results from that study. So that's definitely worth mentioning, and perhaps the landscape around fasting might change a little bit, although I don't know that, not that it was really physiology or research based in the first place, but yeah, so just kind of is important to mention, just as as a as support for how stressful the effects of fasting are, and then in terms of longevity, because that was the other side of The question. Again, this does go back to the hormesis idea, where there's this association between these stress pathways and supposed longevity. A lot of this has to do with the organisms that they were looking at, where, in certain organisms, like C elegans, there's like stress will cause an increase in lifespan, but that's because it's causing a hibernation state that is basically entirely decreasing or stopping the function of the of the organism, so that it's not really relevant to health, or the human health, I should say, and what it translates to longevity for humans. And there's, there's a lot of other..

Mike 53:57
it's like suspended animation. It's like the the worm at that point is it's not really doing anything. It's just completely not doing anything. So like, while the total amount of time of its lifespan may have increased, it spent a period of that increased amount of time doing absolutely nothing in hibernation, just right, completely, basically frozen in time, right?

Jay Feldman 54:19
And it's been noted in the research that they also likely wouldn't be able to do that in the wild. They would likely die, but because they're in this controlled environment, of like the research lab, they're able to survive during extent, you know, an extended hibernation period. So yeah, a lot of that's where a lot of the longevity research is coming from, as far as those stress pathways. But there's other intricacies there, again, that I've touched on throughout those those articles, so I'll link to those. But the to kind of summarize here, fasting is really not a great idea for cancer prevention longevity, even if it's just occasional, or even if it's in someone who's healthy, because overall, you are, at the very least, kind. Causing some stress and getting benefits that could be achieved otherwise. And the adaptation, adaptation of that stress is always going to be harmful. And even if so, the adaptation to fasting as a whole could be beneficial if those benefits outweigh the stress, the adaptation to the stress component is always going to be harmful, and because we can get those benefits elsewhere, it's better to get those benefits without the stress, it'll lead to a much better outcome. So, yeah, I think that effectively answered that. Unless you had anything else to add.

Mike 55:30
I just say that for fasting in general, with somebody who has, like, a severe gut issue and may be helpful for a small period of time, and that that there is a contextual part for that. You know, if you have, like, a really inflamed gut, or your have some type of infection or whatnot, not eating for a period of time might be helpful, and that's, I mean, a lot of people will just do that automatically, because, basically, you lose your appetite, but Right? Um, and again, the loss of appetite too is also a symptom of, like, the general stress or sickness disorder. It goes hand in hand with the elevated stress hormones and different sickness the sickness symptoms from inflammatory responses and different different inflammatory mediators actually function to inhibit appetite and cause wasting and different things like that. So that's it. That's its own thing. I don't want to say that's necessarily fasting, but in somebody who has any type of severe digestive issue or has like some serious sickness, that's releasing a lot of these mediators. One of them is tumor necrosis spectra, alpha. I know it doesn't really matter that much, but then essentially that in that circumstance, there may be a reason going on with that, but just to just as you have an appetite, it just goes, go ahead and say, I'm going to fast. I don't think that that's very helpful. I don't think that it's going to make, make or break the situation, especially when a lot of the benefits associated with fasting can be achieved via other means, without just completely lowering caloric intake or lowering food consumption in general. So and there are, there seems to have been effective strategies in the past that didn't include fasting or treating cancer and also not cutting off different parts of your body and irradiating you and injecting you and fusing you or giving you medications orally that are extremely toxic and destroying your system. So, and I'm at some other point in time, we will get into that. That's not to say that you shouldn't listen to your doctor anything like that. We're not trying to, we're not trying to go against the entire establishment. Just talk in general about, or just answer the question.

Jay Feldman 57:45
Yes, yeah, I would say so. Just to add on a little bit, serotonin is another major factor, as far as inhibiting something that would result from gut irritation, that would lower appetite, and also in those instances, instances you mentioned where fasting might have that net benefit effect. You've got these major gut infections or gut issues, still the you know, it might help symptom wise, but the best thing to do would be to address that underlying issue in the first place. So.

Mike 58:14
Yeah, of course. And in with some people with cancer, they with cachexia, which is like a wasting of the body, that they may not be hungry because of the elevated inflammation. The anytime you have an infection, a viral, bacterial, or even cancer, you have a general inflammatory response that from and the similar inflammatory mediators are involved that produce a similar set of symptoms. So it, I mean, it's some, in my experience, people that I that I even know currently, like family members that have cancer, are technically fasting every day. In general, they're not eating, they only eat one meal a day, um, or they only eating two meals a day. So, I mean, they what they're eating is questionable, but that's a different subject, so, but yeah, again, I still don't think that that is the ideal way to treat the situation. I think that there's a lot of downsides to that, and the goal would be to limit downsides and and accentuate upsides through other means, right?

Jay Feldman 59:17
Yep, all right, that's going to wrap up today's episode. If you enjoyed it, please leave a like or comment if you're listening on YouTube, or if you could also leave a review or five star rating on iTunes. All of those things really do a lot to help support the podcast. So I do really appreciate all of it. To check out the show notes for today's episode, including all of the studies that we referenced, you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast, and if you are looking to improve various aspects of your health, if you're struggling with any sorts of low energy symptoms, whether that's constant cravings and hunger, low energy or fatigue, chronic pain, weight gain, gut symptoms. Symptoms, poor sleep, any sort of hormonal imbalances or reproductive issues, or if you're dealing with any of the other symptoms or conditions that we discussed throughout today's episode, like cancer, for instance, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, where you can sign up for a free energy balance mini course, where I will explain why all of these symptoms and conditions really come down to a lack of energy. And I'll also walk you through the main things that you want to do, as far as diet and lifestyle are concerned, to maximize your cellular energy and resolve these symptoms and conditions. So to sign up for that free energy balance mini course, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, and with that, I will see you in the next episode.