Ep. 112: The Problems with Resistant Starch and Balancing the Calcium to Phosphorus Ratio (Q&A) 

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In this episode we discuss:

  • Why you might want to think twice about using resistant starch for blood sugar regulation and gut health 
  • Ways to increase or reduce the amount of resistant starch in the foods you eat
  • How to tell if resistant starch is negatively impacting your gut health, and why non-resistant starch may also pose a problem
  • The optimal calcium to phosphorus ratio according to the research
  • The calcium paradox and why calcium intake doesn’t increase excitation or calcification 
  • The hidden dangers of excess phosphorus intake

0:00 – intro 

1:00 – mainstream health claims about resistant starch and why we disagree 

6:15 – whether there are any benefits to including resistant starch in your diet 

11:07 – how to tell if resistant starch is negatively impacting your gut health and how to avoid it 

16:05 – which starches are easiest to digest and the factors that affect our ability to digest starches optimally

21:38 – why we should pay attention to our calcium to phosphorus ratio and the risks of high parathyroid hormone levels 

26:19 – the optimal calcium to phosphorus ratio and the calcium paradox in terms of regulating blood pressure  

31:21 – which phosphorus-containing foods we should avoid to optimize bone density 

34:36 – the calcium paradox and why consuming calcium doesn’t increase intracellular calcium 

Links from this episode

Click Here To View Transcript

Jay Feldman 0:05
Should you be eating resistant starches and getting a one to one dietary calcium to phosphorus ratio? We'll be answering these questions in today's episode episode 112 of the energy balanced podcast, a Podcast where we explore health and nutrition from the bioenergetic view, and teach you how to maximize your cellular energy to maximize your health. In today's episode, we'll be going over why you might want to think twice about using resistant starch for blood sugar regulation and gut health. We'll also be talking about the optimal calcium to phosphorus ratio according to the research and the hidden dangers of excess phosphorus intake, to check out the shownotes. As always, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast, where I'll link to the studies, articles and anything else that we reference throughout today's episode. And with that, let's get started.

So Barb asks, What is your take on resistant starches seems like everyone is on the bandwagon about refrigerating their potatoes to turn their starch resistant. But from what I've gleaned from reading your articles, and listening to you and Mike, this may not be ideal. And so I think we would largely agree with Barb. And we'll get into the details. Of course, there's always nuanced, but there are definitely concerns when it comes to resistant starch. And so just to kind of back up a little bit, when we're talking about resistant starch, the resistance piece is referring to resistance to digestion. So this means that the starch basically changes in conformation or doesn't change. And we'll explain that into a way where it becomes resistant to our digestion. So instead of it being broken down into its individual molecules of glucose, and that absorbed, it basically passes through undigested and feeds the microbes that are in our gut. Now, if we have a very healthy microbiome, that might be fine, although I think it's so questionable as to how much we want to be feeding them with resistant starch. But if we don't have a healthy microbiome, then I definitely think it would be very, very, very, very weary of this because you're basically just going to be feeding harmful bacteria and other potentially pathogenic microbes. So that's just kind of the starting place. But there's two main reasons why resistant starches typically suggested firstly, is due to these possible gut effects, or the effects on the gut that are supposed to be beneficial, right, it's supposed to help feed bacteria in a beneficial way. And then the other is that basically converts the usable carbohydrate into unusable carbohydrate. So we don't digest it, so you get less carbohydrate actually coming through and being absorbed, and therefore you get less of a blood sugar spike, and less of a glycemic effect. And of course, this coming from the perspective that less carbs, less blood sugar is better. And we've gone over time and time again, why that's not the case. And so from that perspective, I think we can kind of fully ignore that reason as far as resistant starch goes. But then the next question is about the gut effects and a bit more detail. And so we'll get into those in a moment. But just to kind of be clear, in case anyone's unsure, there's a few different suggestions for how to increase or get resistant starch. One is by eating basically raw starch. So this is offensive times as a supplement, maybe people are actually eating these things, I don't know. But normally, green bananas and raw potatoes and some other like raw starchy foods are suggested here. And you're basically getting raw non cooked starch that we don't absorb. And so it just feeds bacteria. And then the other way that people are getting raw starch again, outside of a supplement would be by cooking the starchy foods like potatoes or rice, and then cooling it. And that will increase or it basically changes the conformation of the starch into a more digestible form. It is worth mentioning, it's not like we're talking about all of the starch being changed, it's actually a pretty small portion that will become resistant starch, there's already some built in even when the food is cooked is always going to be a little bit of resistant starch. And then when it's cooled, that amount increases by a bit. It's not a huge difference, but it does increase.

A couple of things to mention on that front is well actually, before I go to that, I'll let you hop in Mike, if there's anything you want to mention, just kind of overview wise,

Mike 4:13
I think the first question, and maybe I have a bias here, but who wants to eat cold potatoes or cold rice? Like if I'm gonna have rice and potatoes? I want them nice and hot with some butter on them.

Jay Feldman 4:27
You know, but we're talking about sacrifices here. We're not talking about what tastes better. We're talking about the things that we do to improve our health right jump in is bath, take a bite out of your raw potato. Like this is for our health like, I don't know, I don't know why that even matters. What his tastes have to do with this?

Mike 4:41
Yeah, yeah, I guess I guess I just come from an entirely different world but for me like I want a nice piece of steak was some potatoes hot out of the oven or some freshly made mashed potatoes or maybe some like a nice chicken with some with some rice and some butter on it. That That sounds pretty good to me.

Yeah, I don't know about this, this cold rice cold potato stuff.

Jay Feldman 5:04
You know, Mike, we might start getting some questions about chicken. Now of course we're talking about lean chicken that's low and PUFA. But, you know, I know you've mentioned in the past, you've been pretty hard on chicken not really a fan. So we'll have to maybe talk about if your taste buds have changed or something.

Mike 5:17
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think a little bit of tomato sauce and ketchup makes pretty much everything.


Jay Feldman 5:24
Mike with the sophistocated palate,

Mike 5:26
just let me just adjust this. It's Chicken and ketchup with rice and butter is top top quality meal right there. And I can make it.

Jay Feldman 5:39
Mike, the chef, yes,

Mike 5:40
that is coming out of the cookbook, everybody. Stay tuned. recipes on chicken and catch up and rice and butter.

Jay Feldman 5:50
All right. So yeah, definitely. Good point, not something that we would normally be eating. Not something that I think and if there's, it's worth mentioning, like physiologically, we are not inclined to eat green bananas raw or potatoes raw or cooled either. I mean, I think most people would not prefer that taste. And it's pretty counter and you don't see any animals with similar digestive systems to ours doing that. So yeah.

Mike 6:14
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, overall, from my perspective.

And this comes largely from working with people. I think, in some clients that I've worked with, the resistant starch has been beneficial for the microbiome and for their gut function. However, not necessarily getting it through like adding raw plantain, green plantain fiber, or powder, or raw potato starch to their to their meals, or shakes or something like this more. So just that they tend to do well with some of these starchy foods in their diet, and they find that improves their digestion. And that alone will provide you, you know, resistant starch is one type of fiber, but you're getting a variety of other fibers from potatoes, from plantains, etc, with the poly phenolic compounds. And a lot of people or a portion of people do well with adding these in to improve their digestive function. And then some people have a harder time, with just doing sugars alone, maybe they do a little bit better with starches will also tend to do better of these foods. So the way I come at this is there are research studies showing tons of benefit for lowering endotoxin lowering inflammation and certain animal models and in certain volunteers, but then I also have, and so in that population of people, I think that the resistant starch be beneficial. But again, I wouldn't start supplementing tons of this raw potato fiber, plantain fiber, I would just say half plantains or potatoes in your diet. And then in terms of the eating them cooked, are you suggesting to cook them to eat them, like just eat them on a regular basis. And then don't if you don't have a negative response to having your potatoes like making your potatoes or batch cooking your potatoes, putting them in the fridge and then the next day, you just heat them up quickly on all you're using the microwave or you heat them up in the pan really quick, I wouldn't freak out about resistant starch, if you don't have a negative response from it, if you're not having bloating, if you're not having gas, if you're not having rashes, if you're not having weird, crazy dreams at night, when you're having these reheated potatoes than whatever it just doesn't, I don't think that it's that big of a deal. However, there is a portion of clients who I have worked with, who have really negative reactions to the resistant starches. And to some of these like cooled and read his starches, bloating, gas, joint pains, things like this. I'm one of the people who don't do well with it at all. So in those circumstances, I actually wouldn't try to eat the resistant starch, especially supplements on a regular basis if you're having that happen. And just as an example this because there's I haven't there's not necessarily direct studies on people having such a bad time with this. Although there there are some symptoms in the size where people talk about bloating and gas from the resistant starch fibers. But there's a there's autoimmune disease, ankylosing spondylitis, and it's attributed to or linked to an overgrowth of Klebsiella pneumonia in the gut, if you're somebody who is getting these joint pains or the spinal, the pains along their spine, and again, this is this is an extreme example of this, when you're having starches, resistant starch is probably not going to be a good thing in this circumstance. So the reason I'm bringing this up is I'm trying to highlight a specific example where this will be problematic. So we don't just have a blanket recommendation for people to go out and eat raw potato starch or raw plantain starch. So the way I kind of see it as as a spectrum, do, you don't have a problem with it, it's fine. And maybe it helps you add plantains, potatoes, things like this in your diet, you know, rice, you could batch Cook, get put in the fridge and when you want to eat your meals makes life easy to just heat it up instead of having to cook rice fresh every time. That's what's going on. Great. And that's the direction I would go. No problem. If you do have a bit of problem but it's not terrible when you're when you're eating these some of these star sources, then try to cook it fresh. So try to have your potatoes fresh. Try to have your rice fresh, you're gonna make some plantains, fry them up brush instead of letting them cool and then reheating them. And then the last party is if you have serious gut issues and you really don't do well with

starches and I would just stay away for a period of time until you're able to modulate the god effectively. So there's really a spectrum of options that are available to you to manage whether or not you do well with resistant starch or starches in general. And I think I would, from an implementation standpoint, try to determine where you fall in that spectrum, and then adjust accordingly, instead of trying to go about adding in this resistant starch in your diet, because some blogger writes, that is the best thing since sliced bread, and then start to get a variety of digestive issues. And you know, you're doing this for two weeks down the line, you're still getting bloated, and gassy, and having all these problems and just trying to push through because maybe it'll adjust over time, I would say Nick's it. And there's a bunch of other fiber options that don't have to be supplements that you can incorporate into your diet and still modulate the microbiome and have a beneficial effect. There's a variety of different cooked vegetables you can use as a variety of fruits that you can use, and all the different poly phenolic compounds and herbs are also beneficial as well. So again, this is like one strategy. I don't think everybody has to use it. And I would adjust based on your individual context.

Jay Feldman 11:05
Yeah, definitely. And so I think

there's two things I would highlight. One is we can use our symptoms to tell us in most cases, how we're responding. And so if we're eating, as you said, anything along that spectrum, and we'll go back through that. But if you're eating something on that spectrum, and you're finding that you're not responding well, then we would want to shift toward more easily digestible, something that's less likely to feed the microbiome, and continue to adjust based on how you're responding, as you said, bloating and gas are really clear. Brain fog, joint pain, skin issues, autoimmune issues, those could all fall into the category here as well. So that's kind of the main thing we would want to use as our indicator. And as you said, we have the spectrum. So we have the most resistant starch, which would be raw. And so normally, when you're doing that, you're talking about a very small dose supplement, you're not normally eating an entire green banana, or an entire, you know, raw potato. And then you would have the cooked and cooled, which is going to have the next most resistant starch. Then you have the coach cooled and reheated when it's reheated it helps to reduce the resistant starch, especially if it's being reheated at a high enough temperature, typically about 175 degrees Fahrenheit is the temperature you would want the food to get to in order to reduce the resistant starch again, it's still well and now we get to the next one on the spectrum, which is just cooked and eaten fresh, so cooked, cooled and reheated has less resistant starch than cooked and cooled. But it still has a bit more in most cases, relative to just cooked and eaten fresh. So if you're eating that starch, the you know the, let's say potatoes or rice, freshly cooked, that's going to have the least amount of resistant starch relative to the other ones. And then we have the other option, which is no starch. And of course that won't have any resistant starch. It's also worth mentioning that there can be other reasons why someone might have issues consuming surge that are not the resistant starch itself. Even regular starch can be difficult to digest, you have to basically have enough of the enzyme that breaks down the starch all the way in order to get into the individual glucose molecules to absorb and use it, you might have issues with that a lot of them might come with different types of fibers, other fermentable carbohydrates outside of resistant starch that can cause issues. A lot of them might come with anti nutrients if we're talking about grains, especially the whole grains, or legumes. So there's many reasons why someone might not well do might not do well with starchy foods. But when it comes to resistant starch, that's kind of the way I would lay it out when it does. And again, just to be clear, like if we wanted to avoid resistant starch, at least we would want to be cooking the food and eating it warm. If it's fresh, that's great. If it's reheated normally, that's still reduced enough unless we're very sensitive. It's worth trying either way. If you're really not sensitive, and you like boiled potatoes and a potato salad, go ahead and try it. But it just keep in mind it will have more resistant starch. And if your microbiome is off, it's going to be more likely to cause issues. And I've definitely seen that happen specifically with something like potato salad, and people who have gut issues. So something to keep in mind there for sure. The last thing I would want to mention is the type of starch that's in the food can also contribute to the amount of resistant starch. So there's typically two main types of starch, we have amylose, which is just a long chain of glucose, that like a single kind of simple chain, versus amylopectin, which is a branched starch molecule that has glucose is but it's branched out. The branched one to amylopectin is typically easier to digest, and also less likely to convert to resistant starch relative to amylose. We talked about this a little bit very early on in the podcast, I'll link to those episodes, I think it was the ones talking about gut health and digestion. But if you choose let's say the shorter grain rice, those have more amylopectin relative to amylose. So they'll produce less resistant starch compared to the long grain rice. Plus even if we're not even talking about resistant starch, the amylopectin is typically easier to digest rather than the Abalos. This is also why we talked about the waxy potatoes, you know the new potatoes the smaller ones as opposed to something like russets which are higher on amylose. So I'll refer back to that episode for more information there, but it's just another consideration here.

And I think that would be my main thoughts here when it comes to resistant starch. But of course, most people that are looking to use resistant starch they're looking to do so in order to improve their gut health, maybe they're looking to lose weight or improve their metabolism as well. But as we're getting at, it's not really the ideal place to focus. But when it does come to creating a diet that helps you with your digestion, helps to improve your metabolic issues. There's a lot of conflicting information out there. And that's why I've created the energy balanced food guide. This is a one page infographic that organizes foods on a spectrum based on how effectively they support your metabolism. And it also has a separate spectrum that adjusts the scale for you in the case that you are dealing with various digestive symptoms or issues. The Food Guide makes it extremely easy to get started with a bioenergetic approach to optimize your health. So to download that free energy balanced food guide, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/guide.

So yeah, Mike, go ahead and feel free to hop in here as far as if there's any concluding thoughts with resistance search?

Mike 16:00
Yeah, I mean, I pretty much gave my perspective on it. Overall, the only thing that I want to add, that's interesting, just so people can get an understanding of what's going on with the different starches that you brought up between amylose and amylopectin, is that amylopectin starch actually tends to have a higher gi glycemic index. And, you know, this is not I'm not saying this, because it's a bad thing. I'm saying this because this is indicative of the ability of the body to break it down. The higher gi just basically means that the body's enzymes are more able to access the starch molecules and free are the glucose molecules and free them from the starch structure, then the amylose starch. So if you do have problems with starch, then for example, I'm somebody who doesn't do massively well with starch. When I have sources that are more amylopectin based, I actually tend to tolerate them a bit better than if I have something that's more amylose base. And so this could be something like using Jasmine rice, instead of using basmati rice. So this also adds to the spectrum of starch tolerance. And another piece that I wanted to bring up here, that you kind of touched on is that there is different individual tolerances for starch amongst different people, it's not like you can make a determination on whether somebody does super well with starch, or super well, with sugars, primarily, you know, just just by looking at them. In certain circumstances, there's some interesting research and studies looking at amylase gene copy. So I was the enzyme that breaks down starches, that you kind of touched on there, Jay. And essentially, the more copies of the gene amylase you have, the better, you're actually able to break down starches and digest them. And an interesting point here, that kind of lends credence to the perspective that we've been bringing up or that we've been discussing is that people who have less amylase gene copy who are less able to break down starches effectively, actually tend to have more metabolic dysfunction. When introducing starches into their diet, which from the generalized model of the the mainstream model nutrition to be like the even the researchers assumption was that if these people have less Aima, amylase gene copy, they have less copper, they have less production of the the enzyme amylase to break down the starches. So when they have starch, they would actually be more metabolically healthy, because they'd be getting less carbohydrate. And in this instance, what they found is actually no, that's the opposite case. It's actually the less copies you had and the more starch you ate, the worse your outcome was in terms of your of your metabolic health. And so that is, that would actually lend credence, what we're saying is like, you actually want to be digesting the carbohydrate that you're taking into your diet on a regular basis, instead of trying to optimize for not absorbing it. And I this also tapers in or tailors into what you're talking about with whole grains and some of the grains, a lot of people are propositioning whole grains, or that not a lot of people. But I think the mainstream narrative propositions whole grains is like these panacea carbohydrate sources. And the idea is that the food matrix of the whole grains makes them much less digestible, and actually slows down the digestion of the carbohydrate. And that's why the glycemic index is lower. So it's not because of, you know, some super beneficial compounds or anything like this, it just that they're much harder to digest. So that's, I think, that's good food for thought around, you know, the narrative that the mainstream is coming from. It's still in this restrictive mindset that we want to have our carbohydrates but make them really hard to get, and also decrease the amount of them that we're absorbing. And the shift in perspective that though, the underlying philosophy is very different with what we're talking about where we're saying, you want to actually have enough carbohydrates for what you need, you still want to have nutrient density, you still want to have the poly phenols you still want to have the fibers for the microbiome. But the ideal circumstance here isn't to just make every single thing that we really hard to digest, so that we're somehow like by proxy, starving ourselves, and this will make us wait stable. I think that whole perspective

As you know what we've been trying to turn on its head through through this this podcast. But those are some, some other elements to consider when in this whole carbohydrates starch whole grain resistant starch perspective altogether.

Jay Feldman 20:13
Yeah, yeah, it's one thing to say carbs are bad. And so you want any carbs that you have to be resistant to digestion. And another thing to say carbs are good, but you still want them to be resistant to digestion, and the less you digest, the better. Obviously, that's very incongruent, kind of ridiculous.

But yeah, and as you're getting at, oftentimes, when we're looking at starches, higher glycemic index can actually be better. Again, what we really want to understand is what is the glycemic index representing so we don't want to just go based off that number. But we want to actually digest and absorb the starches coming in, while the concept if we're going to eat starch. And then the other thing is, you mentioned the heritability when it comes to amylase production. And that's certainly worth considering. Also, when it comes to digestive enzymes in general, including amylase, there's a relationship with bacterial overgrowth that just inflammation in the intestines, reducing the production of digestive enzymes and also our thyroid status. So it's not like this is purely a genetic thing as to whether you'll be able to digest starches or not, of course, that can be a factor. But it can also be a metabolic or a gut health thing as well. So we want to consider all of those things when determining how well we do with starches, and use symptoms to help guide us. But as a rule of thumb, resistant starches, or doing things to reduce the digestibility of starches, adding Carb Blockers and things that prevent the absorption. generally not a good idea, generally, the exact opposite of what we want to do. Yep, so 100%.

Yeah. All right. So we

our next question here is from AD Ross, asking about the calcium to phosphorus ratio. And I have had this asked by a handful of different people, essentially, this is a principle that Ray peat talked about a lot, where he had talked in places about wanting to get at least a one to one calcium to phosphorus ratio, Aldo will kind of mention that there are places where he actually mentioned a lower ratio being okay. But a very common thing that's discussed in the ray peat sphere. And so we wanted to share some thoughts on it. Michael, let you go ahead and start us off.

Mike 22:04
Yeah. So I think the main, the main misconception that I hear over and over again, from clients, and the clients are getting this from alternative practitioners, other alternative practitioners naturopaths, whoever else. And what they're discussing is that calcium shouldn't be supplemented or used, because it causes calcification of the soft tissues. And I'm not saying that this is at Ross's question, but I want to interject and inject this piece here, because I think it's will be helpful to round out the entire perspective. Now, what there's some interesting articles from I think his Japanese researchers name was, I think it's Fujita or something along those lines. And basically, what he was showing was that if you don't get enough calcium in the diet, what happens is you will start to actually release calcium from your bones via the action of parathyroid hormone. So whether you have calcium intake or not, you can still calcify your soft tissues, particularly what most people are worried about is their arteries and the coronary arteries around the heart.

And this is under the action of parathyroid hormone, because the parathyroid just gonna break down your bone and then release the calcium into your bloodstream. Now, something to consider here is that parathyroid hormone is directly negative to the metabolism directly damages the vasculature and is directly involved in cardiovascular disease and kidney disease, and cardiovascular disease, kidney disease, and poor bone health are all linked together through parathyroid hormone directly. So the strategy here then, is less so I want to have less calcium in my diet, so that I don't calcify my arteries and more. So I want to have enough calcium in my diet, so that I don't destroy my bone structure. And I still don't calcify my arteries and I still don't lead to issues with kidney function and these types of things, due to an to an excess amount of phosphorus. Now, this is this sets the tone in terms of understanding the calcium, the phosphorus ratio. Now why phosphorus is what raises parathyroid hormone, and calcium is what lowers parathyroid hormone. There's a lot more that goes into it. But that's the general perspective. The other thing is vitamin D helps to lower parathyroid hormone, as does magnesium. And just as a tangential point really quick, the a lot of these nutrients all work together. So Vitamin D, Vitamin K, calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, all of these components work together to stabilize the body structure and functions on a consistent basis. So it's not just that you just need calcium, or you just need vitamin D, you're looking at a whole system, and you're saying is my parathyroid hormone level low enough and my vitamin D is in optimal range, am I

calcium, the phosphorus intake is dialed in effectively, and I have adequate magnesium intake. And I also have adequate vitamin K and take vitamin K to specifically. So we want to dye all these factors in. But a huge piece of this, this whole system is making sure that your calcium, the phosphorus ratio, is actually optimized and dialed in effectively, to help to keep that parathyroid hormone level down. And the ratio that as you mentioned, Jay, that Dr. Pete often talks about, is that one to one ratio, that is the ideal target, or maybe a little bit more. But that is like the that is the ideal that we're shooting for in most circumstances, can you get away with less? Yes, can you have a bit more? Yes, but one to one is really, at least when I work with somebody, what I'm trying to dial in effectively, and that's through a combination of diet, supplements, etc. And then dosing the calcium appropriately and using it appropriately is also an important perspective. inconjunction, making sure all those other micronutrients are also dialed in. And if so, if you want to protect your bones, you want to protect your heart from calcification want to protect your kidney function, your vascular function, then it's really this is one of the major systems to dial in. And the calcium phosphorus ratio is actually extremely important with this.

Jay Feldman 26:14
Yeah, yeah, absolutely some some really great points there. And a couple of things that I want to highlight. So as you're saying, low calcium is not the solution for calcification, or anything else along those lines, and in fact, contributes to the problem. And largely, that's due to the release of parathyroid hormone itself, which for one increases calcium normally beyond levels that you would get from calcium intake. Normally, if you have high serum levels of calcium, that's due to high parathyroid hormone levels. And so that's one thing is your you have more calcium interacting with the vasculature to begin with, not to mention the direct negative effects of parathyroid hormone itself in a ton of tissues, including the vasculature. And also its strong association with hypertension as well, which of course, not ideal for vasculature. And and even I would say it's happening as an effect of the harm to the vasculature, not the cause. And so you essentially have many reasons why not to avoid calcium, and why to supplement with calcium and why that can be really, really beneficial. And this idea that intracellular calcium, like calcification or excitation is related to the consumption of calcium, again, totally missing all of the details there. And those are not related. In fact, it would be the opposite. Having more calcium coming from your diet helps have a relaxing effect on the cells and helps to reduce intracellular calcium. So I'm really glad you brought that up. Because I think those are really common misconceptions. And definitely things that I see people mentioned a lot whenever we mentioned supplementation with calcium is is that concern. With that in mind, we did also have a previous episode talking about calcium sources. If we don't do well, with dairy, he talked about supplementation and things like that. So I will link back to that episode, since of course, that's relevant here. And so coming to the calcium to phosphorus ratio, we're talking about the ratio of dietary calcium to dietary phosphorus. And if you do a bit of food tracking, especially with something like chronometer, you can get an idea of of how your intake of those is. And as you're saying, excess phosphorus relative to calcium will increase parathyroid hormone causes negative effects cause bone degradation, which is where we get the calcium from when we're not getting enough calcium from our diet. Obviously not ideal. In most of the research, a ratio of at least one to two calcium to phosphorus is okay, in terms of not releasing parathyroid hormone. So as long as you're not doubling your calcium with phosphorus, as long as your phosphorus intake is not twice your calcium intake, that has been shown in some studies to be okay. However, in some studies, looking at very high intakes of phosphorus, that's not enough. And even a one to one ratio is not enough to prevent the parathyroid hormone release. So to be safe, and to be optimal and ideal, I would say a one to one ratio is pretty good, and not getting too much phosphorus. And in that study, it was about 18 150 milligrams was the average in the population or the intervention group. I don't remember what it was where they were having elevated parathyroid hormone, despite a nearly one to one ratio of calcium to phosphorus. Yep, that was a very high phosphorus intake. So if we're getting at least a one to one ratio in our phosphorus, it takes a bit lower, we should be generally okay. And that's where I put my focus. For what it's worth. There was an episode of where Ray peat was talking about this with Patrick Timpone. And I think he even said that as long as you have above a one to three ratio of calcium to phosphorus, that's okay. And based on what we're saying here, I actually think that wouldn't be enough. But just I think it's helpful to recognize I mean, some people will take some things that people say and especially things that Ray has said, like as as gospel and that this like is absolutely like cemented, but he's mentioned different ratios at different times. And so

You know, just worth keeping that in mind as well. And just always making sure we're, we're considering all all angles and the physiology and everything and coming to our own conclusions, especially considering that that's, I think the rule as he said, basically, the only prescription he's ever discussed is, is, you know, thinking for yourself come to your own conclusions, not sort of thing. So

yeah, I think that'd be my main thoughts when it comes to calcium and calcium, calcium to phosphorus ratio. Oh, the one thing I did want to mention to real briefly talking about intracellular calcium is the relationship between calcium and blood pressure and parathyroid hormone. And especially the blood pressure side is considered a calcium paradox, because calcium channel blockers are used in to treat high blood pressure to lower blood pressure, because the elite basically the flow of calcium into the cell causes excitation causes constriction and causes high blood pressure. And yet increasing dietary calcium has the same effect as an anti hypertensive medication by lowering blood pressure. So

yeah, obviously, we've talked about the idea of a quote, paradox in the past where there is no such thing as a paradox. You know, there's just information we haven't come to terms with or haven't encountered yet. But yeah, I think that's a good example of it.

Mike 31:12
Yeah, there's two points, I actually want to touch on there. Because I think you had some youth that the calcium paradox you brought up was really interesting. Now, before we buy, before I cover that directly, the first point that I want to talk about is the food sources of phosphorus that you have are also really important to consider, if you're getting a lot of inorganic phosphorus additives, you know, like, some of the phosphates that they add to different meats and whatnot, or to different processed foods, the meats is to make them hold some water, and the processed foods, they're just as different additives for variety, different reasons. Those are actually way worse for parathyroid hormone levels, than if you were just to get phosphorus from chicken or steak or fish or something like this. So that's, that's something that's really important to consider when you're looking at your phosphorus intake, is that coming from meat? Is that coming from seafood? Is that coming from lean chicken is that coming from these animal based protein sources? If so, I think the worry about the phosphorus intake is likely a bit lower than if you were to get it from these, these additives. The other thing I would say is that some of the grains actually had worse effect on the bones and the teeth and mineral status over the long term because they are number one really high in phosphorus. And number two, they also come with a variety of nutrient inhibitors and mineral binders that can be actually net negative for the the status or the balance of these different minerals. So the ideal strategy from my perspective, and what I try to build out with with my clients is a diet based around tubers, and maybe some some rice, and then fruits and fruit juices and of these different carbohydrate sources that are not very grain heavy. And the calcium source can either come from some supplementation, some dietary components, or things like dairy, and and have their protein needs needs met with dairy and with animal based protein sources, things like this, because we're minimizing the things that will actually decrease bone mass and really skew that the parathyroid hormone levels. And we're optimizing the components that will actually provide the vitamins and minerals and nutrients that we need on a regular basis to suppress parathyroid hormone levels on a consistent basis. So the food choices are also important when you're looking at this and considering this calcium to phosphorus ratio, as well as the other nutrients that are that are coming along with that. An interesting point here. And this is a this is counter to the vegetarian and vegan arguments. But protein intake from animal sources actually leads to increases in bone mass. And it's because the protein can actually help to improve absorption of calcium, even though you see increase excretions in the urine, which was the initial studies that they're looking at there. And I think when you actually look at individuals, and this is not a subjective judgment on these individuals, when you look at people who are on vegetarian or vegan diets, they actually tend to have issues with bone mass and bone quality. And I think part of that is related to calcium and phosphorus ratio, but also related to having an adequate protein intake to actually absorb the calcium and whatnot and actually stimulate bone growth because a large portion of bone bone is protein related. So these are other elements to consider when you're dialing in your diet to minimize bone loss, maximize your vascular function, etc. Now, the next piece that I wanted to touch on in response to the calcium paradox today is that what a lot of people don't understand.

And even some of these alternative practitioners who have this problem with calcium is that the excitatory effect of calcium is not related from external calcium necessarily coming into this to the cells itself. It's more so you have this internal calcium being released from the endoplasmic reticulum to actually stimulate a

excitatory a factor a stimulatory effect inside the cell. And these processes are very different. It's when you when you look at the musculature this is the general example that's used. And this is why when you think about like the calcium channel blockers for blood pressure, when the muscle cells, whether smooth muscles or stride muscles with our skeletal with the skeletal muscles, they are releasing calcium through the endo plasmic reticulum, and then that's causing this contraction response. This is not necessarily because they're just being exposed to calcium, externally. And so that's something that's important is you have your different contexts, different areas where these things are occurring. And even with the mitochondrial death, there's the release of some of the ions interaction involving calcium with the mitochondria that signals apoptosis, whatnot. But this is not necessarily because somebody's eating too much calcium. This is again, this is a signaling process inside the cell that is using calcium ions for these particular mechanisms. But you also at the end of the day, you're going to need these calcium ions that are going to have to come from somewhere. And I've seen, there's some individuals on the forum saying that you can't get a calcium deficiency. Some of these low vitamin A people are discussing this. And it's like, yeah, you're not going to become deficient in calcium in terms of your serum values or anything like this, because you'll just pull it from your bones. But a calcium deficiency over the long term could be more aptly considered to be osteopenia or osteoporosis. Because you're likely just pulling from the bones over the long term. And then possibly, some of the cardiovascular and the hypertensive and kidney problems could also involve calcium, probably more calcium dysregulation and just a deficiency problem. So that's something interesting to keep in mind is that if you actually care about your bone mass, then you don't want to just keep calcium low, and then argue that you can't have a calcium deficiency because you have this reservoir of bone calcium.

Jay Feldman 36:54
Yeah, yeah. Great points there, for sure. And just one thing I wanted to tack on to was, again, when we're talking about sources here, phosphorus, of course, the grains, beans, legumes, being ones that we would want to be especially careful with concerned with, you know, really generally would want to minimize, as you said, both due to the phosphorus content itself, but also the anti nutrients that want hibbott mineral absorption, like calcium, so kind of like a double whammy there. And, and part of the concern, as you were saying, with vegetarian diets, or vegan diets that are really highly relying on those, especially in their non processed forms, and alongside not consuming dairy, I mean, it's, it's really easy to, to cause issues here as far as the ratio, but also in someone who's maybe doing carnivore having a ton of meat, not having any dairy or calcium sources, not doing any supplementation, you know, you can definitely get access phosphorus at low calcium from that, too. So suddenly to keep an eye on somebody to look at in terms of parathyroid hormone levels, consideration when it comes to blood pressure in terms of calcium intake. And so yeah, I think it's certainly important to consider when it comes to creating a healthy diet from the bioenergetic view, yep.

Mike 38:07
Yep, I agree.

Jay Feldman 38:09
Awesome. Mike, do you want to go ahead and share where people can find you? Yep. So if anybody wants to learn how to set up their diet appropriately, using these bioenergetic principles, I have a I have a blueprint, the nutrition blueprint available on my website, Mike fav.com, so you can check it out there. And then if anybody is interested in working with me, or finding more out about the different services and options they offer, they can check that out at Mike dave.com.

Awesome, thank you for sharing that. All right. With that, we're gonna wrap up this episode. If you did enjoy it, please leave a like or comment if you're watching on YouTube. If you're listening elsewhere, please leave a review or five star rating on iTunes. All of those things really do a lot to help support the podcast and are very much appreciated. As always to check out the show notes for today's episode, you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast to take a look at the studies articles and anything else that we referenced throughout today's episode. And if you're looking to optimally support your metabolism, lose weight, improve your digestion, get amazing sleep, rebalance your hormones, boost your energy and so much more with clear action steps and strategies. Alongside personalized guidance from me, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/solution where you can find all of the information for the energy balanced solution program. This program includes customized health coaching a video library with videos on regulating blood sugar, restoring gut health, losing weight without destroying your metabolism, boosting your metabolism, getting amazing restorative sleep, learning about how to rebalance your hormones and tons more. It also includes resources like a sample meal plan and supplement guide, as well as access to a private community. So again, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/solution to check out all the details. And with that, I'll see you on the next episode.

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