Ep. 108: Herman Pontzer’s Burn, Ted Naiman’s PE Diet, and Increasing Calorie Intake to Raise Metabolism (Q&A)

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In this episode we discuss:

  • The unexpected costs of using excess exercise to lose weight 
  • Our thoughts on Herman Pontzer’s book Burn and the Constrained Model of Energy Expenditure 
  • Our thoughts on Ted Naiman’s protein to energy ratio diet (PE Diet) 
  • The cost of eating too much protein and what to do instead 
  • How to increase caloric intake to raise your metabolism and reverse hypothyroidism 
  • The major category of nutrients that’s often missed for optimizing mitochondrial function 

1:25 – Herman Pontzer’s Constrained Model of Energy Expenditure and the adverse effects of energy deficits

7:13 – problems with the additive model of energy expenditure and the physiological cost of excess exercise

10:40 – environmental factors that we can change to increase metabolism

16:42 – the unexpected costs of using excessive exercise to lose weight

19:16 – weight gain as an adaptive response to an energy deficit

22:46 – when eating too much can be a problem and how to identify your ideal calorie intake

32:18 – Ted Naiman’s protein to energy ratio diet and optimal protein intake

41:13 – the problems with using protein as an energy source

46:45 – how to increase caloric intake to raise metabolism and reverse hypothyroidism

50:47 – how to track your symptoms and progress to better guide your nutrient goals

56:55 – the best foods for increasing calorie intake and what to do if you have a low appetite

1:00:30 – the essential role of both macro and micronutrient density in promoting mitochondrial health

1:04:00 – why sugar cravings are not the same as sugar addiction

1:06:46 – easy ways to incorporate more macro and micro nutrient dense foods into your diet

Links from this episode

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Jay Feldman  0:06  
More exercise high protein diets and reducing calorie intake are not the answer. We'll be explaining why that is, in today's episode, Episode 108 of the energy balance podcast, a Podcast where we explore health and nutrition from the bioenergetic view, and teach you how to maximize your cellular energy to maximize your health. Today's episode is a q&a episode where we'll be discussing how access exercise can decrease your metabolism. Over time, we'll be going over our thoughts on Herman Pontzer's book burn, and the constrained model of energy expenditure. We'll be going over our thoughts on Ted Naiman's protein to energy ratio diet or the PE diet, we'll also be discussing the cost of eating too much protein and what you should do. Instead, we'll be going over how you can increase your calorie intake to raise your metabolism and reverse hypothyroidism, and also the major category of nutrients that's often missed for optimizing mitochondrial function. To check out these studies and articles, and anything else that we referenced, throughout today's episode, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast to take a look at the show notes. And with that, let's get started.

All right, Wendy says I'm interested in hearing your take on Herman Pontzer's burn, and his premise that caloric consumption is relatively fixed in humans, eg 1900 calories for women either being used for work or structural repair, etc. So we have talked a little bit about Herman Pontzer's, constrained model of energy expenditure in a previous episode totaling to that and that was an episode or a series of episodes where we're talking about exercise, optimal amounts, and it's particularly relevant here as we'll get to. And we think there's a lot of value in his model. And we've read some of his papers, I will say, we haven't read his book burn, which he was referring to, but I think it's built on the same premise from his papers. And so there's a lot of value here. Also, interestingly, he worked with some other researchers that we like and have talked about, like John Speakman, who we talked to quite a bit about him or about his work in the past when talking about aging and metabolism. And he had pointed out that issues with the rate of living theory and that species that have higher metabolic rates, within you know, within the species, that leads to a longer lifespan and reduced aging, whereas it's the opposite when you're looking between species. So we've talked about that in the past as well, I'll refer back to that. But when it comes to

Herman Ponzer's constrained model of energy expenditure, there's quite a bit that we agree with. And we think that there's a lot of value in that something, it dovetails in with something that we discuss a lot. And so his basic premise is that there is up until him kind of publicly making this this work known. The idea was that there was an additive model of energy expenditure where if you were burning 2000 calories a day, and then you increased exercise by 500 calories, then you would just burn 2500 calories a day. And that would probably come from body fat, and you would lose lose weight, and it would be great. And that's perfect. But if you actually look at the weight loss research, that's not at all what happens, we've referenced quite a bit of research and that it's actually really hard to lose body fat consistently. And that way, whether it's by cutting calories, dietarily or by increasing activity, because our bodies compensate and multiple ways they there's what's called behavioral compensation, where if you exercise then you might naturally have a little bit less movement throughout the day, you might fidget less, you might walk around less things like that. But also, there's metabolic compensation or metabolic adaptation, where your our bodies are responding to their environment. And it's not a fixed machine type symptom system, but rather, it's an adaptive living system. And so our bodies are trying to constantly gauge how much energy is available. And if an extra 500 calories is going to have energy is going toward exercise that will actually reduce the amount of energy that they use for other things like reproductive activity or repair, or you know, digestion or immune function and all those things have to turn down. Because our bodies are aware that if they ran out of energy, it would be a massive problem, they wouldn't be able to continue living. And so there are all these adaptations in place. And this is what we talked about all the time. And with the bioenergetic view talking about how stress hormones increase talking about how our thyroid hormones get decreased, or the conversion of of inactive to active thyroid hormones decreases and on from there are our reproductive hormones decrease. These are all ways that our bodies adapt to basically energy deficits when there's less energy being produced relative to

The demands that are being placed on it. And so I'm just going to share one quote from one of Herman Pontzer's papers that really demonstrates this. And so this is from his paper, titled to constraint, total energy expenditure and metabolic adaptation to physical activity in adult humans. And the quote states rather than increasing total energy expenditure linearly in response to physical activity, individuals tend to adapt metabolically to increased physical activity muting the expected increase in daily energy throughput. These metabolic changes can be behavioral such as sitting instead of standing or fidgeting less, but they may also include reductions in other non muscular metabolic activity. For example, men and women enrolled in a long term exercise study exhibited reduced basal metabolic rate at week 40. And studies and healthy adult women have shown suppressed ovarian activity and lower estrogen production in response to moderate exercise. Other species have also been shown to keep total energy expenditure remarkably constant in response to increased physical activity, reducing energy expenditure on growth, somatic repair, and basal metabolic rate. And even reducing lactation and cannibalizing nursing offspring, even when food is available, add libido and total energy expenditure is well within maximum sustained levels. So he is stating and demonstrating very clearly there that you, you can't just create these calorie deficits and waste all your energy and exercise without that coming at a major metabolic cost. And it doesn't just continue to add up and add up or you keep losing a pound a week or whatever it is. But rather, that energy is going to be coming from what is being used structurally what's being used for reproductive activity on and on from there. And so there's a lot of value to that. It's something that we talked about a lot. And from that perspective, we think there's a lot of value, and definitely takes us away from this basic calorie model where you just need to exercise more or create this deficit, and then you just lose that amount of weight when you convert the calories to weight. And instead, he points out that you can't just out exercise that loss. It's not that simple. And, you know, cites all these examples. So that's kind of the basis for it. And we do have some disagreements as well, which we'll get to in a moment. But, Mike, if you want to jump in with any of those any initial thoughts on on the general constraint model? I

Mike  7:14  
think it was just, I think the overall importance of the model is that it eliminates this i It eliminates the additive idea, because I think the additive idea in the sense that the more activity you do, the more calories you burn, and then therefore, you'll just lose weight, I think it's important to recognize that there's actually a threshold where your body cannot produce more energy. And so it has to come from somewhere else. So to meet that demand that you're implying that you're applying on the system from exercise. So understanding that there actually is a level that's too much, I think, is the most, one of the most important things to take from the overall model. As far as like some of the specific points, I think that's more where we would draw the disagreement with overall. But the major takeaway for me from going through his work is just that. And I, for me, I think it was like almost like a self explanatory point, especially if you've tried to like exercise heavily, that it does start to take away from other areas of your life, you especially if you like really over do the exercise, you start to realize, oh, wow, like, productivity is taking a hit, maybe my libido is not as good anymore, I'm starting to have issues with sleep. So there's a point where number one, the body perhaps can't recover from it. And then there's, I think, also a point where the exercise is directly pulling from other functions. So that's a I think, hugely beneficial piece, although I think to a degree self explanatory, like within the bioenergetic approach, away from like, the idea that there's this endless amount of energy capacity that your body can produce in the face of like an increased exercise demand. So I think that's the, I focused most heavily on that and some of the other specific points I kind of, I have my disagreement with. So I, for me, when I look at these different theories, or models, or pieces of information, I take the pieces, at least for me, that makes sense within my overall framework. And then I kind of will hold the other pieces that are perhaps paradoxical until I have time to actually go through and and specifically look at those individual elements. So yeah, that as far as like, the overall piece, I would agree with pretty much everything you said so far. J.

Jay Feldman  9:33  
Yeah, and it's a really important difference or separation. And it's an important evolution of the model, right? Because and I don't think it's going to be it's not really accepted per se, but because it not only does it like the flip side of the additive model is also the opposite, right? So if you don't create the quote deficit by adding exercise, but you do it by cutting calories, that will have the same effect that it's going to will come at the cost of all of our functions. And that's why that's not the ideal solution here. Now, small points aside, there is a, I think a larger point that we have a disagreement with, which is what sets that constraints or what sets No, you're saying a threshold, like there's a certain threshold where you aren't going to go beyond that. And from, from Panteras point of view, he alludes to this being set by something in our evolution that as a species, we're generally going to have a constrained metabolic rate at a certain point. And it's there's going to be a very narrow range where that fluctuates. And what we talk about all the time here is that there's not like our metabolic rate can change pretty dramatically. If when we look at thyroid activity, when we look at stress hormones, we looked at testosterone, when we look at, you know, all of the different factors that affect how well we produce energy, versus whether we're going to be encouraging somebody to go to storage, those things matter a ton, and we can change, where our metabolic rate is, based on all of those things. If we want to cut carbs and fast and eat a lot of polyunsaturated fats, that's a really great way to decrease our metabolic rate rate pretty dramatically, and then we can maintain our weight on 1500 calories a day, or whatever it is. Whereas if we do the opposite, we can really increase that metabolic rate. And what that means is more energy going toward structural purposes, repair digestive function, brain function, focus, as you mentioned, reproductive function. And so that is a really key point that is just not as much it's not a focus of sponsors. And again, I would say there are within an environment that is constant, there is a constraint. And so largely the what sets the constraint is the environment. What is our stressor? What is our how much sunlight are we getting? How much sleep are we getting? What is the type of food that's coming in, how much of that food is coming in, what's the frequency of our food consumption, those are things that are going to set the constraints way before any sort of species level constraint. And so that's, I think, the biggest disagreement that we have, but it's an important one, because what it means is that you have a lot of control over your health, because of our health is determined by how much energy can go toward our different bodily functions. And that's constrained, then we have to be really careful, right? We can't, we don't want to exercise at all, we don't want to think too hard, we don't want to use any energy, because that's going to take away from our functions. But the reality is that we can actually eat more of the right things and raise our metabolic rate and eat on a consistent basis, not fast and, and, you know, make sure we're reducing endotoxin, our endotoxin load and you know, improving our ability to detoxify it and reducing the exposure to different pesticides or heavy metals that will also interfere with energy production and reducing the polyunsaturated fat exposure. Those are things that dramatically affect our ability to produce energy. And you'll see that when you look at the changes in metabolic rate between species based on the saturation of the membranes, or of the of the phospholipids, which we've discussed, at nauseam, so you can change that metabolic rate pretty dramatically. And that's a really great thing. And that's why we focus on these things so much is because that is the way toward improved health. And by the way, it is also the way toward something like weight loss or fat loss, rather than the idea of an additive model, which is just create a deficit, create a deficit. Instead, what we're saying is create more energy so that it shifts you out of a stress state helps you to store less substrate as fat and increases the energy that's utilized toward the bodily functions that allow us to function better. So yeah, I would say that that's the important distinction between our viewing and his but but I would still say that his this constrained model really moves things forward from the additive model.

Mike  13:51  
Yeah, I think, I think it's important to understand that all of these different things are different modeling, or different systems that are being looked at and trying to be understood, and it's like adding a piece of information to the system. And so, Herman Pontzer's work is looking at one particular area, right? So you have, he's essentially looking at this idea that the idea that there's a limit to how much energy the body can produce overall. And so I think that general idea, again, makes sense, but it this view doesn't take into consideration. Another idea. And another paper that we've talked about, just as an example, is the Logitech and Gonzalez paper that's looking at I think its energy deficits can sustain and cause obesity or it's a decrease energy levels can sustain can cause and sustain obesity. And so that's when you're looking at this system, you have to look at it from the perspective of I have a substrate called I have a carbohydrate I have a fat for all intensive purposes, that carbohydrate fat is be digested transported to the cell And then the cell has to have all the appropriate resources to actually take that carbohydrate and fat and convert that into electron carriers and then take those electron carriers and then use the electrons to generate ATP. So you have like multiple steps through that process. And realistically, what Herman's Pontzer view adds to this process to this process is it just brings into focus this idea that there is an actual limit to the capacity of that system to generate energy. Now, he's saying that where the limit is, I think, is probably the point of disagreement to, to a large extent,

Jay Feldman  15:40  
what drives the limit? What exactly,

Mike  15:42  
yeah, so And what also drives the limit. But in this particular view, the argument that we're saying is, if there's any problems along those pathways, and then this paper that we mentioned, the load I can Gonzalez paper, what you wind wind up seeing is that the body can actually shunt the substrate, instead of converting energy into fat storage. So you have just this is just one separate piece, looking at the system from a different angle. And seeing okay, there's actually another piece to understand here. And so it's putting the whole entire system into context, it's the body produces a general amount of energy, you have your BMR, you have the thermic effect of food, you have thermogenesis you have your physical activity levels, and there's a limit to which the body can actually produce energy. It's perhaps it's not constrained genetically. But in Herman Pontzer review, perhaps is constrained by a bunch of these different other environmental factors that Jay just mentioned. And so and so there could be a possibility to, you know, increase it more, but at the same time, that's not even the question. The question is, is well doing excess exercise or activity level to lose weight from that perspective? Is that worthwhile? Or does it come at a cost and from the in the current context, you'd say, yes, it likely comes at a cost. And there's in our current particular context, the body can not necessarily just endlessly create energy from substrate, at a certain point, it will start pulling energy from different areas. And then even before that, if you have nutrient deficiencies, if you have endotoxin issues, if you have high amounts of oxidative stress, etc, etc, etc, all of these different components can actually impair your energy generation from the get go. So the focus would be to try to actually correct these different things, remove the blocks and energy, provide the resources to energy, and then see where you fall in terms of what's going on with weight and what's going on with your energy levels and functions from that perspective. Instead of just like trying to strong arm the system and say, Alright, I'm just going to run like a 4k every single day until I lose 20 pounds, and not have the concept that that actually comes at a cost to your body on multiple levels, whether that's reproductive, whether that's tissue repair, whether that's mood, whether that's sleep, etc. If

Jay Feldman  17:55  
we acknowledge that excessive levels of exercise is not the answer for weight loss and improving our health, then you might be wondering what is. And so if you're dealing with symptoms, like weight gain, or chronic cravings, and hunger, or low energy and fatigue, or other symptoms, like joint pain, digestive issues, brain fog, poor sleep, hormonal imbalances, or various chronic health issues, like autoimmune conditions, or insulin resistance, then head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, where you can sign up for your free energy balanced mini course, where I'll walk you through the main things that you can do from a diet and lifestyle perspective, to maximize your cellular energy and resolve the symptoms and conditions. So to sign up for that free energy balanced mini course, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy.

Mike  18:41  
So it, it's Herman Pontzer's ideas, I think, at large give this nice picture to this overall system. But there's other different components to consider. And I would it's I think it's, as far as what's a narrow range is? No, we have to that would be getting into the finer points of saying, Where are the narrow ranges? And then I think the argument is like, what's actually driving the range that's occurring? So yeah, that that's there, you're looking at multiple systems overall. That's, that's the big piece that I want to highlight.

Jay Feldman  19:17  
Yeah, and an important part that you brought that you brought up is that if you consider that weight gain is already a state of an energy deficit. We've discussed this before, I'll link back to the many episodes where I've discussed it. But considering that that's the case, if you then want to further create an energy deficit by reducing the amount of substrate coming in so you're already not converting the substrate the carbs or fats into energy efficiently, then that's causing that substrate to be stored as body fat. Not to mention it's also causing a stress state where you have high cortisol, low thyroid, low sex, hormones, all of that. So all of those things are driving substrate to be converted, converted into fat. And then you're saying, well, now I'm gaining fat so I need to eat less and exercise more. You are creating a further energy deficit. And the adaptation of that will lead to further fat gain. And that's what causes that yo yo cycle. And that's why you regain more weight every time. And we've kind of alluded to that study that rat study where you know, they lose the weight, regain it and lose it again. And every time you do that, you regain it twice as fast. And it's, and it's twice as hard to lose it. We'll go through that study in detail in the future, but I'll just kind of reference it in the show notes. But that is because of the adaptive system to the energy deficit. And so again, to punters point, there is evolutionary basis here, there is adaptive basis here, the whole reason why there is not an additive model at play, is because our bodies are trying to adapt to what's going on to the best ability that they can. And if they're sensing an energy deficit, they want to hold on to as much substrate as much fuel as possible, because they're anticipating less and less energy in the future. And that is what allows us to sustain life. That's what allows us to live. And so we have all these systems built around the fact that if there is a famine, let's say we always go back to this because it's simple. There's a famine, where there's not a lot of food, or if you're fasting, because you don't want to eat food for whatever reason, you're going to turn your body turns down its metabolic rate. And that is a an extremely adaptive process, it's very helpful, it's very beneficial, because if it didn't do that, and you kept using the same amount of energy for all the other functions, and you didn't turn down your capacity for digestion, you didn't turn down your capacity for reproduction and all of that, then you would run out of energy really quickly, and you would die very quickly. So this is a way to maintain survival, and it's extremely beneficial. But what it also means is that it is not a good idea if you're trying to actually improve your health. And it's not a good idea if you're trying to lose weight in a healthy way or sustainable way. So he brings to light a lot of those things. And then again, the the question is okay, or the objection that we would bring up is, how much can we change the constraints and what sets those constraints and so I don't, I don't think I have too much to add there other than the fact that the goal, if you're in that state, would not be to reduce the amount of substrate coming in or increase the amount of energy that you waste on exercise or something. But rather, it'd be to fix the process of converting the fuel that's coming into energy, fix your ability to convert carbs or fat standard to energy and use protein properly, and all of that. And that will help to shift your adaptive hormonal state, the hormone state that reflects the underlying energetic state, so that you're not storing food as substrate, and it is able to be going to energy. So there's not all this leftover substrate, not storing food as fat. And then you also end up with better function at the same time. So I think that it's an important distinction to make. But yeah, still the me Yeah, I guess I'll kind of cap it there before. Repeat ourselves too much. But do you have anything you want to add?

Mike  22:47  
Yeah, I just the other point that I want to add here is I think that there's a perspective as well that people can think like, oh, then you just, you know, you eat as much as you want, and your metabolism will also just increase. I also don't think that's the case, I think that there's like, there's an amount of energy of food that you can eat at a particular time given a certain circumstance, and it's not an endless increase as well. So it's important to not just start slamming food under the premise or under the implication that if I continue to eat more and more and more than my metabolism will just increase more and more and more, and then I'll just eventually I'll lose the weight and etc, etc, etc, I think more what you find is that you there's a sweet spot that you're looking for, where you're eating enough food and nutrients and whatnot to process effectively, you're minimizing the other problems that may be putting blocks in metabolism, you're, you're not trying to excessively increase your exercise and activity load to run a heavy deficit. And then you're also aware that if your caloric intake is excessively low, you will start to have as you go, you first of all, you could lose weight. But as you continue to lose weight, you will start to have negative hormonal effects over the long run. So it's not a call to endlessly eat. But it's also a call to understand that excessive exercise is a problem. And it can add at certain levels can cause problems with multiple other systems in the body. And then at the same time to running deficits, like really heavy deficits, also comes at a negative of cost in the body from from multiple different perspectives. And it does also down regulate metabolism in the long run. So there's like, on either side of the spectrum, I mean, they're kind of the same thing, right? increasing energy, demand with exercise or decreasing energy supplies with a deficit. Both have negative ramifications. And I think inside the mainstream that just hasn't been accepted or even considered. But the reason I say that it's kind of self explanatory is that like, there of course, there has to be a capacity limit on either side of what is reasonable for the system, right like the they're not going to endlessly produce energy to meet this demand. And then you also like as you continually less than less than less than less than less, the body will have to conserve. Because it cannot can create, keep maintain the same level of metabolism, especially if you understand how the stress hormones work, you're starting to metabolize your own tissues. So like the body is obviously going to want to manage it's a how much tissue it's breaking down. So there needs to be an adaptive downregulation of metabolism. This is it's not that this is pathologic. This is actually how things are supposed to work. And it's important that they work that way. So that you live.

Jay Feldman  25:32  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, and to us, it's self evident, right? Because we have, this is a thought process that we've become really accustomed to over many, many years. But to the most of the world, that's not the case, most of the world does fully believe in that additive model. And that doesn't just include lay people that is the typical model. And from researchers, that's typical model from the Instagram influencers, and most influencers and all the calories in calories out people, which is the majority, I would say that I would say that that is the majority of people in the health space. So I yeah, I mean, it is self evident to us. But I think it's actually a pretty big difference for different thought process for a lot of people. And in terms of what you're talking about earlier, where this doesn't just mean eat more and more. So this is our issue with the all in approach. And we had an episode discussing this. But the all in approach is essentially saying the only thing that's been constraining your metabolism has been how much you were eating, you kept eating less and less. And that was the only constraint and now you just eat more and your metabolism will come up to meet it. But as you're saying, that's not the reality. The reality is there are a lot of other factors in your environment that can lead to that constraint. All the things we've discussed sleep, stress, nutrients, anti nutrients, polyunsaturated fats, on and on and on, those things can also add constraints. So then maybe you get to a point where the amount that you're eating is not the constraint, but these other things are, and then you end up getting a lot of body fat, because you're still having all this substrate that can't be converted to energy due to these other constraints. So it is when it comes to an actual model of looking at what the quote constraints are, it's very complex, there's a lot, a lot to consider. And that's why we have over 100 episodes of things talking about what affects our metabolic rate, what affects our capacity for energy production. So yeah, it's it's an important distinction to make here, which is that eating more is going to be a prerequisite for the vast majority of people who are probably under eating considering their their, their state. But that doesn't mean that is the full answer a full solution. And often it is a small part of the solution.

Mike  27:38  
Yeah, essentially you want to eat, you want to eat the amount that you need, you want to eat, you want to have the amount of macronutrients and micronutrients that you need on a consistent basis. And you want to minimize the factors that may be impairing metabolism causing problems in the gut, etc, etc. The other thing I'll say is it with the all in approach to like excessive, large amounts of body fat gain, are problematic as well. So like having large amounts of body fat in and of itself is a metabolic problem. And so that's something to keep in there's multiple implications on I don't want to go too far into it, because we'll spend the rest of the episode discussing this. But that is something to keep in mind as well. You want to be lean, and you want to, you don't want to you want to be eating enough that you need on a regular basis, you want to massively over eat, and you don't want to massively under eat. And then you also don't want to massively increase your exercise, because all of these things cause problematics on a metabolic level. And what you're really looking at it is, to a large extent, a logistical issue. It's a logistical problem of energy demand and energy supply. But it's not as simple as how much calories I eat, and then how much calories I expend. There's like multiple things that can change across there. and the EU, it's a moving target that's up regulating up or down based on different circumstances, different hormonal profiles, etc, etc, etc. So it's very important to understand it in a more the metabolic system and a more nuanced way. And to avoid viewing things in a very black and white type of perspective. There's like many finer details that make this important to understand overall, and I'm not trying to, you know, complexify unnecessarily, it's just as it's important to understand some of these finer points because there are ramifications for your health with them.

Jay Feldman  29:27  
Definitely, and you were when it comes to the body fat causing metabolic issues or being a physiological problem, there's definitely truth to that, that also doesn't mean that in certain cases, it might be worth gaining some weight due to psychological issues with with the history of dieting and restriction and, or other things as well. Sometimes it can be a faster approach, but there's so much nuance there. And we talked about it in that all in episode, so I'm just going to refer back to that and leave it there because otherwise, as you said, it will become a whole episode on its own. So, moving on, I think that we We covered that one, pretty well, pretty comprehensively. And so the next question is from Julia. And she asks about our thoughts on Ted Naiman's views, specifically one to one protein to energy. And I'm going to let you start us off with this one, Mike. But just first as a kind of disclaimer, and we should have done this disclaimer out there with Herman Pontzer. As well, of course, whether we agree or disagree with any of these things, none of these are personal attacks, we're just discussing the the views or in this case, a piece of a view of somebody's approach. And that's, that's all it is. It's, again, nothing personal or anything like that. And especially in this case, we aren't familiar with the extent of Ted Naiman's views. We haven't read his book in the same way. We haven't read Herman Pontzer's book. And in this case, we're really just going to be talking about the idea of a high protein diet, the idea of high protein to energy ratio, the idea of wanting to just increase satiety, and that protein is the solution and increasing satiety is the solution for fat loss, we're not going to get into all of the possible nuances there, because it's just way, it's way beyond the scope of just a quick q&a Like this. But if people are interested in those things, we can always do a deeper dive. But I'll let you take it from there. Yeah,

Mike  31:12  
I just want to add to that, too, is that these the questions that we're answering here, they are q&a questions, and they it was in a sense for us to give our thoughts and opinions on them. For like, going into those finer points of something like Herman Pontzer's, Pontzer's view, or even some a Ted Naiman's use would require, like, at like, entire could require entire episodes in and of themselves. So this is, again, it's not getting in, we're avoiding getting massively into the finer details, we're giving our general overview picture response, and not trying to strawman, these guys either. And again, there's nothing it's not a personal tag, it's all about concepts and ideas, and having an open dialogue about the concepts and ideas and go, you know, back and forth on on the different finer points. That's, I think it's important to point that out there. Because I don't want to strawman, anybody. And I want to make sure that like, again, I haven't read either Herman Pontzer's book, or Ted Naiman's book, but I have read Herman Pontzer's articles? Quite a few of them. So that's I don't know if Ted Naiman has any articles? I

Jay Feldman  32:18  
haven't seen any. Yeah. So

Mike  32:22  
essentially, so with Ted Naiman's views, the main thing that I that I guess we want to point out here was, he talks very heavily about the importance of protein. And specifically, what he mentioned about protein is this protein to energy ratio. Now, I didn't purchase his ebook or his his Amazon book. So I don't know the specifics. But from what I gathered from podcasts, and from some of the articles that I've seen, it's you're looking at protein, either, I'm pretty sure it's in grams, being equal to the other energy substrates. So the energy substrates are carbs, and fats. So as an example, if you were to have 200 grams of protein a day, then you would have 100 grams of carbs, and 100 grams of fats. The other way that I've seen this discussed was in terms of calories. But the calorie problem as broke as I start to get into this is actually even worse, because if you were to have, you'd essentially have to have a 50% protein diet by calories. So on a 2000 calorie diet, that's like 250 grams of protein, which is like quite a ridiculous amount of protein to ingest on a regular basis. And so with that said, let's get into this. So the first, we'll just kind

Jay Feldman  33:39  
of keep it broad is, in general, high protein diets and trying to keep protein high relative to carbs and fats and kind of details are, as you said, a little nebulous.

Mike  33:48  
Yeah, I mean, that. At least that was my understanding of the protein to energy ratio. And I wasn't 100% sure if it was grams of substrate or calories. But yeah,

Jay Feldman  33:58  
essentially, I didn't see it clearly anywhere, either. Well,

Mike  34:02  
I think it's because the by the book J. Yes. Um, so essentially, there's a couple problems with this. So the first thing I want to point out is that we know from the literature how much protein we want to have on a regular basis to maximize protein synthesis and minimize protein oxidation. So that that comes in this includes, I think, like two standard deviations from the actual value that was obtained, or at least one standard deviation from the value that's actually obtained to give it a little wiggle room to make sure you weren't right at that border. But it's like point eight two grams per pound per day. Now, this is for if if you're obese, you have a lot of body fat, the value would be the calculation would be a little bit different. But that's it would be like one gram per pound of lean body mass is what you achieve for but for this particular circumstance, from the research, that's the value that we're actually looking at. And so what's the importance of this The first piece is that you don't want to be using protein as an energy source. Because there's problems with that. First thing is, if you're going to use protein as an energy source, you're going to likely convert it to glucose. And you're going to upregulate. Some of the, the, I guess, adaptive are the stress hormones, including glucagon. And then in the process of converting protein to glucose, or not necessarily protein, but amino acids into glucose, you're going to generate ammonia. And so the ammonia itself is toxic to the body, we do have systems that are capable of detoxifying it aka the urea cycle. But in detoxifying ammonia, there is an energetic cost there that requires ATP to be used to detoxify the ammonia. And then the other thing is to create to take an amino acid and convert it to glucose, you also need to generate you need to use ATP. So overall, you have a net negative or you have a net positive effect that eat of ATP. But it's it's you don't get generate as much ATP as you would with glucose specifically. And then at the same time the ATP is being pulled specifically from the liver, the liver is basically under one of the major sites of gluconeogenesis. So the liver is sacrificing its ATP pool to detoxify ammonia, and also to create glucose from amino acids when you have an excess of protein. And this is especially in the case of a lower carbohydrate diet. So that's problem number one. The other problem that happens when you have way too much protein in your diet is that you have an extreme amount of satiety, so you're just not hungry. Now, as we just talked about at length, just using protein, to essentially wipe out your hunger so that you can eat less and therefore lose weight. Will it work, probably, however, is does it come at a costs? Yes, very likely that it comes at a cost, because now you're number one in a low carbohydrate diet, which we know has negative effects on both sex steroids, and also has a negative effect on thyroid hormone. So there's problems in and of itself there. And then in the long term being on these low calorie diets will have negative impacts on metabolism overall. And you'll see adaptive down regulation, regulation of metabolism. So it's essentially this is just another strategy to lower your caloric intake by drastically increasing your satiety and overeating protein. The last costs that and I've talked about this, I have a whole video on this on on my YouTube channel. And then Jay and I have also directly talked about this together. But protein does like there's I think about 5% of protein makes it to the colon on a regular basis. And some of those amino acids can be converted to some pretty toxic metabolites inside the colon. So if you're drastically overeating protein, you're likely to get more of these metabolites in the colon. And then from that perspective, there's some negative effects that can happen from that. So some of them can be ammonia, hydrogen sulfide, P cresol, etc, etc, etc. So it's not like, I think, the protein idea, I think at one point I even thought about I even thought this as well, throughout my own journey going through these different diets and whatnot, was that Oh, protein is the only safe macronutrient, right? It won't make you fat, you can eat as much as you want of it, it'll lower it'll keep you satiated, most animal protein sources are quite nutrient dense. So like, how could you go wrong with protein. But there actually is detriments to having excessive amounts of protein. And personally, when I was doing keto, I was eating 200 300 grams of protein a day. And essentially what I was doing was I was just making up for my lack of carbs with really high protein intake, and that there is a there's a huge negative effect of that on the body in multiple ways, as I just mentioned. So overall, do you need to have enough protein in your diet? Yes, for certain reasons, but just add excessively increasing it to to increase your satiety and lower your calories. There is actually negatives and drawbacks to it. So it's likely not the best strategy, will you lose weight, probably. But again, it's coming at the same way of you're just eating less overall, because you're so full from all the chicken breast.

Jay Feldman  39:17  
Yeah, and is losing weight in a short period of time, the parameter to determine if something's working, we know that you can look you can do a low calorie diet, you can fast you can do whatever you want to lose weight in the short term. That doesn't mean it will stay off long term. And if it doesn't mean won't come at a cost. And if it does stay out, stay off long term. It's it's coming at an even bigger cost, which is everything we just described coming from the Herman Pontzer perspective and the constrained model of energy expenditure. So, kind of going back through a few things you mentioned all good points. You mentioned that point a two grams per pound being the high end of what may be necessary. As far as maximal protein muscle protein synthesis and things like that. and positive nitrogen balance. Normally, we would say that point 0.6 to 0.8 grams per pound of protein is totally adequate. That's normally the range we shoot for. I'll refer back to an episode where we talked about that and other macro ranges as well. And refer also refer back to the studies for mental health ailments and, and articles discussing that. So what we're not talking about here is what is optimal for building muscle or protein needs. But rather, increasing protein beyond those needs, as you were saying, to increase satiety and basically cause a low calorie diet, all this is is a low calorie diet. And he also has, you know, the diagram showing that fibers really helpful as well. Water's really helpful as well, anything that's going to increase satiety, and help you eat less calories. And we just had this discussion from, you know, discussing Herman Pontzer's work, suggesting why that's not a good idea at all, it's the equivalent of just increasing your exercise by 1000 calories a day for on an ongoing basis. And look at all the costs that that has, you see it very clearly, in studies on animals, you've seen studies on humans, and you're creating this constant energy deficit, and that has to come from somewhere, our bodies want will conserve as much energy as possible when they're put into that starvation state. And that means it's a perfect recipe for low thyroid, low sex hormone production and high stress hormones. And that is, the other thing we were talking about is the involvement of needing to convert that protein to energy when you're eating a very high protein diet. And you were saying, A, it's not very efficient. And we've referred to these studies, we talked about this quite a bit during the nutritional Judy episodes, because this was, you know, she's coming from a carnivore perspective. So again, very high protein, although in her case, much lower on the carbs than then I think Ted Naiman is specifically. But we talked about how to convert in order to use that protein for energy, it's 30% less efficient than using glucose for energy. And because of that, our bodies don't favor that pathway. And instead, you have to use the activate, you have to activate that pathway by being in a stress state. And that involves the activity of glucagon. We've talked about the problems with the influence of something like glucagon on a long term basis in the episodes with Rob Wolf, and how that depresses thyroid activity, and is a stress hormone just like adrenaline and cortisol, and will therefore comment a major cost. And not only I shouldn't say just suppresses thyroid activity, but suppresses or impairs the conversion of the inactive T four to the active T three thyroid hormone. So major negative effects there in terms of lowering the metabolic rate. And so that is one major issue with trying to use protein as a fuel. But then, of course, the other one is it's you're you're creating a low calorie state, you're displacing carbs and fats. And that's also going to drive stress, and further depress our metabolism through all of the means that that we've discussed here. And we've referenced in the past some studies looking at the protein to carbohydrate ratio, showing that that decreases testosterone, of course, that not being something that we would generally want to do. And he talked about the negative effect of ammonia as well as a product here. And then you also mentioned that, in the intestinal side of things, that excess protein will also cause issues there. So quite a few areas where you know, that kind of demonstrate that protein is not just a free macronutrient, we just want to increase it and that is the solution to health, it is a solution to weight loss, especially short term weight loss. But that doesn't mean that it is a good solution for long term health or long term weight loss. So I think that's my main thoughts there on if you have anything else you want to chime in with

Mike  43:38  
the only other thing I want to add that we didn't specifically mention, but I'm pretty sure a protein intake over a certain level is also associated with higher amounts of cortisol. And I think it may be I think we've mentioned this at some point, it may have to do with up regulating the urea cycle to manage the ammonia and whatnot, the excess ammonia is produced at super high protein intakes. So yeah, so you have essentially just looking at on paper, low, increase glucagon levels, lower thyroid hormone levels, lower testosterone levels, increase cortisol levels, and then you're also likely going to be in a caloric deficit, because it's just really hard to eat high amounts of calories when your diet is very, has a large percentage of it as protein. So yeah, there's some finer points that you could mention, but I don't like for example, like amino acids and mTOR and lonja, longevity, and yada, yada. But I think that's kind of besides the overall picture. And I want to reiterate here, like if your goal is to lose weight, and you don't care about the health effects and anything else Sure, slam protein and eat a really low calorie diet and will you probably lose weight, of course, the question is just what state will you be in when you're done? And so I think it's really important to understand the context. Like what is your goal? What is your content? Next, are you trying to lose weight and then like in a sustainable fashion, and not have as drastically negative effect on your hormonal profile when you're done doing that? Is that possible? Yes, that's 100% possible? Is there a way to do it without having to go on like a, like a protein sparing modified fast read, essentially, you just eat really high amounts of protein and relatively lower amounts of other macronutrients? Yeah, there's definitely a way to do it. So that's the I think that's important to keep in mind if it's rapid weight loss, though, and you don't really care about your health. And yeah, you could probably lose weight really fast on a protein sparing modified fast type diet or really high protein, low calorie diet in general. So I'd want to make that clear, because we're not arguing against that. It's definitely can have those effects. It's just there is a cost in the long term with that.

Jay Feldman  45:57  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's the best way to lower your metabolic rate, if you want to have to continue to eat lower and lower calories to maintain your weight forever. While it comes at the cost of all of your other functions. Perfect. That is, that is the best way to do it. But obviously, we're suggesting that that's not a good idea for most people. And instead, there are much better solutions that increase your metabolic rate, increase the amount of energy go into all those other functions. And at the same time, can like literally in the process of fixing that reduces the amount of substrate going into body fat. So I'll refer back to those episodes talking about better options, better ways to accomplish weight loss, and the issues with the kind of calories modeled issues with eat less exercise more, which essentially, this is built on. So yeah, I'll refer back to that. And we'll move on to the next question. Sure. All right. So the next question is pretty relevant to this discussion? It is from Dean's life. And he says, Can you put up what 5000 calories a day looks like? I believe I have hypothyroidism is I have a low Tabin pulse, and struggled to put on weight. But even though I eat a healthy diet, I probably eat about 1400 to 1600 calories a day. And I want to be hitting at least 2500 to 3000. So can you please provide more info on meal plan suggestions per day, my waking temp is around 35 degrees Celsius and temp. And pulse is around 55 to 66 beats per minute. And a slim guy but told this is likely hypothyroidism. And it's likely due to a congested liver due to a lack of bile production. I also have ADHD and brain fog and wonder if low thyroid if there are symptoms of low thyroid. So I would not be concerned about congested liver or anything like that, at this point. I wouldn't even be concerned about hypothyroidism, so to speak, I mean, this is definitely going to be a very low thyroid state, but it can just be brought on, I think all these problems could just be brought on by eating a low calorie diet. I mean, these are low body temperature low polls are extremely clear signs of this, saying hypothyroid Labs is probably a very clear sign of this, or is a clear sign of this and is probably something that would be seen here, low sex hormone production, all those things. And in this case, it could just be brought out not by all of the other constraints that we talked about not by issues with converting substrate to energy, but just by not getting enough substrate in that's that is already going to set the stage for a low energy state. So just before we talked about maybe some specific suggestions on the food side, I would say that this is a most it sounds like too low of a calorie diet. And the first thing that we would want to do is carefully increase the amount of food that's coming in and see where we're not getting enough. Are we not getting enough carbs or fat? Are we getting too much protein? Is that causing us to be too satiated? Are we eating too much fiber? Are we drinking too much water? All these things that Ted Naiman is suggests? Are you doing that? And is that causing you to eat a low calorie diet, or have you just eaten a low calorie diet for a long time and that's depressed your metabolism so much that now that's normal, again, something that would be the result of the high protein energy diet and something we've both experienced. I know that when I saw I was in a intentionally under eating to try to improve my body composition to get the six pack abs all that we've talked about this in our health journeys episode. So I'll link back to that. But I was eating so little, that when I then decided that I needed to gain weight and I needed to eat more. I was eating so much food, I was so full, I was forcing down every bite, you know, started increasing the amount of snacks and everything that I was eating. And when I calculated it all out, that diet that I was struggling to eat was right around 2000 calories. So I get being in that state where your hunger is so suppressed, your digestion is so suppressed, your metabolism is so suppressed, that you're full leading that little food. But in order to get out more than likely you're going to have to slowly increase the amount of food and ideally you can do it in a way that's much more comfortable and that doesn't come at any negative effects doesn't come with any weight gain unless it almost sounds like this guy was wanting to gain a little bit of weight but the He, it's the essence here is that eating more is going to be a huge part of the solution. And I also understand being in that place where you're like, being in that place where you're feeling like you're eating as much as you can eat, but it's really not very much. And again, it just takes some small shifts, and eating more nutrient dense foods by nutrient dense, I also mean macronutrient and calorie dense, things that are higher in carbohydrates and fats, not very fibrous, not a lot of vegetables, not a ton of water, but actually eating things that are going to help you increase the amount of energy producing so that you can get out of the state. So I'll let you chime in Mike, and then maybe we'll talk about some ideas for kind of easy, calorie dense, nutrient dense foods. And maybe we'll share some examples of things that we eat as well.

Mike  50:49  
Yeah, I think that I think overall, the first thing I would do is just get a sense of where instead of like, oh, I need 2500, or 3000, or I need 5000 calories or anything like that, I would actually just sit down and get a sense of like, what would general caloric intake be based on your current height and weight or and then maybe based around like, what your ideal, what's your ideal weight or body composition would be just you can see what you're actually looking at. And it's not a guess. So you can really see the starting point exactly as a starting point, just to say like, this is around where I should be or around where I want to be. And then from there, you can slowly start to increase up. Now the other thing I would say that's really important is get some type of general day of eating down, that you do on a consistent basis. So that if you want to start increasing your intake up as an examples, say, and I guess this jumps right into to what you wanted to do, Jay, because I agree with your points, like I don't want to rehash the same points again. So essentially, what I would do is get a general day down, that you can eat consistently on a regular basis foods that you like foods that you digest well, all those types of things. And so say as an example, breakfast is like a couple eggs, some juice, maybe a banana, maybe you cook the banana bit, and you put a little bit of maple syrup with it and some cinnamon, so it tastes good, all those types of things, you can just slowly increase the amount you eat across each of those meals, maybe do four meals a day, if you're trying to gain weight. And just you could go from one week to one week, you could say okay, now I'll have one and a half bananas in the morning, something simple like that, maybe increase the juice, maybe you start at eight ounces, you go to 12. And it doesn't have to be these exact recommendations, but you can slowly increase the amount that you eat over time. And the other thing you can do as you go along is number one, you'll be able, if you do it slowly in that fashion, and you do it increasing intake on a per meal basis, it's not that hard to get an extra two ounces or four ounces of juice, instead of like trying to just like massively overeat in this other meal because you didn't have your calories for the day or whatever your target was. So that's, that's point number one that I think is it that I would recommend doing. The next piece that I would I would recommend is keep a track of what your weight is, and keep a general track of what your body composition is not because you know you're trying to be Mr. Olympia or anything like that. But you can get a sense of how you're trending in a direction in the body composition that you're achieving as you're increasing your weight. Because ideally, you would want to be increasing your lean mass, not drastically increasing body fat percentage, maybe you would want to put on a few pounds of fat might be actually helpful. But there's a point where you don't want to get too much you can see, okay, I'm eating, I'm increasing my how much I'm eating on a consistent basis, my appetites increasing by I'm increasing my body mass, I'm starting to feel better overall. And then you can get a sense of like, am I gaining too much body fat? Am I Am I not gaining any weight at all. And so you can get a gauge on what your intake is, and then where you're actually moving. And now you now you know how you have to adjust. So how are you feeling? What's happening on the scale? What's happening with how you look. And then you can adjust back and forth. And now you have actually specific steps that you can do to move forward instead of just like, oh, I need to eat 3000 calories is like that's a very arbitrary number overall. And I would like to see like a more empirical process for you so that you know what you have to do. And you don't have to guess anymore because a lot of the times I think with with a lot of people a big problem around diet is guessing it's like I don't know, I don't really know exactly what I have to do. And so there's two problems with that. It leads to outcomes that you don't necessarily want or you just don't move forward or do anything, because it's such a roadblock to figure out exactly what you have to do. So breaking things down into smaller steps. Getting an empirical understanding of like, generally where do I want to be and then working towards that in a concerted fashion and tracking your progress along the way you don't have to you know, you don't have to be in there with the calipers and measuring your body fat and doing your Bodybuilding photos and all type of software's not unnecessary just see where your weight is going and take a look at yourself on a consistent basis and be like, okay, am I gaining a lot of belly fat am I am I actually like my body composition improving and kind of go from there and keep get a sense of your general symptoms, oh, my moods better, my mental functions better, etc, etc, etc, and track the process and you can see trends. Once you can start to see trends on a consistent basis, then you can get a sense of am I moving in the right direction? Or am I not really moving where I want to go? And I think those things are really important. And that will also give you a lot of reference experiences along the way so that you have a better idea in the future of okay, what do I actually need to do for me versus what is this generic calorie calculation? Or what is this this this diet guru? onlines protein to energy ratio thing? It's like, Well, I I know that doesn't work for me, because I've went through this process so that that self generated experience those reference experiences, and seeing the trends is super helpful. And again, you don't have to be like Elon Musk level of analytical tracking of all of your things. That's not necessary. I don't even know if Elon Musk's tracks like that. I'm just, he's the first person I thought of in like the text view, right? But it's, um, yeah, just get a general sense of what direction you're moving in and try to get a gauge of where you want to be. Those are really important, like, where are Where's point B? And how do I get to point B, because right now we're just at point A, and we're kind of point B is to somewhere over here. I don't know exactly what it is.

Jay Feldman  56:30  
One, as you said to what even is point A where are we now what are we eating now? Where are roadblocks I mean, that's another important thing. And you mentioned eating frequently, I think was something you just kind of, like glossed through. But that's an important one, right? If we're trying to eat three meals a day and saying, Well, I want to I'm twofold. To increase those meals more will add an extra meal, add a couple snacks. You know, we've talked about these things being been generally beneficial in previous episodes about meal timing, about blood sugar. The other thing too, is if you're feeling full, and putting aside maybe digestive issues, if you're feeling full part of it could be the types of foods that you're eating that are not particularly digestible and easy to digest. Again, even aside from too much protein, too much water, too much fiber, it could also be whole grains and lots of vegetables and, and you know, beans and things like that. And that is going to make it really hard to eat a high calorie diet, or a high enough calorie diet or eat enough food. And so that's a situation where you might want to refer back to some previous episodes where we talked about eating digestible foods, and also where we talked about some good sources, some good sources for all the different macronutrients from the bioenergetic view. And so I do also have a guide that has a digestibility skill, you know, talking about more easily digestible foods that could be helpful, you can find that at Jay Feldman wellness.com/guide. But these are all the resources I'd be using to help figure out what's going to be the easiest in terms of increasing calorie intake in a comfortable way. I know he also mentioned that there might be a lack of bile production and maybe congested liver. And again, part of this could just be from not eating enough not getting enough fat, and that would be where I would start. But if you're increasing the amount that you're eating of any of these foods and you're having issues, there might be an issue with bile production. And first, I would just assume that it's due to not getting enough nutrition in. But if it's too hard to get more nutrition in from fats, maybe you need to lean away from fats a little bit or lean toward more monounsaturated fats. Again, we've talked through these things before, so refer back to those episodes. But if you need to make certain tweaks, so that it works better for you, then definitely do so. And maybe you need to lean more toward carbs and away from fats for a bit. And that's fine, too, if that helps you get there. And if you're eating really easily digestible foods, as you were saying, you know, you mentioned juice, Mike, if you just replace 40 ounces of liquid that you drink in a day, let's say it's water or tea or something with orange juice, which is not the most dense of the juices, that's 140 grams of carbs right there, that's 600 calories. That's a difference between 1500 calories and 2100. You know, if you add two ounces of chocolate in there, that's another 300 calories. And I'm not saying this is the solution you should specifically add these foods in. But really increasing density of, of macronutrients shouldn't be too difficult if you're considering and again, when you're coming from the perspective that these things are bad, that's different, right? Those aren't on the table. So it's a totally different perspective to be coming from but when he recognized that these are just really easily absorbable nutrition sources then might be really a really good option. So you had given that example of breakfast, which I think was perfect and then as you said, figure out where that's starting places and just tweak it up by a little bit. You know, add in a little bit more fruit, add in a little bit more juice, add in a little bit more rice, add in a little bit more potatoes, lean away from the things like the raw vegetables or just that symbols overall, if those are impeding your digestion, and I do work with people who really struggle to eat enough, and part of that is due to digestive symptoms, part of it's due to fear of eating too much. And a lot of times the people who are doing that are eating a lot of vegetables, and they're eating a lot of calories, like they're eating very non calorie dense foods, because we've been inundated with that being the healthy, the healthy route. But I think setting that perspective is really what's going to allow someone to very easily bump up their calorie intake. It's

Mike  1:00:33  
funny, because I had a client recently who went to this alternative doctor or whatever to get, you know, ozone or something like that, like some type of NAD plus therapy, whatever the deal is, and they were talking to, I'm gonna relate this into I promise, this is not entirely tangential for the listener and for the guy, the gentleman who asked the question, and the doctor was saying, you know, you need to, you need to fix your mitochondria. You need your mitochondria need to work better. And so blades, okay, like, what do I do? And then he was like, Well, you just have to stop, you know, stop eating sugars. And you have to have like, a really nutrient dense diet and like, just like protein and vegetables. And it's like, it's funny, because they're like, all these vitamins and minerals and everything. You know, we talked about a nutrient dense diet, I hear thrown around all the time. And it's like, what's a nutrient dense diet? They've usually people need micronutrients. But essentially, it's like, you're putting all the oil in the engine, you're putting the oil in the spark plugs are topped off, they're great. But then you got no fuel in that in the car, so you can't drive it anyway. And that's, I think, a huge problem. And what do I mean by fuel for diet as macronutrients, and specifically the energy macronutrients, right? That's the carbs and the fats, you need to have carbs and fats. And it's not a question of, Do I restrict carbs? Or do I restrict fats? Or do I just like eat a crap ton of protein? So I don't eat any of the nutrient, the energy macronutrients? Because then I'm going to gain a bunch of weight. It's no how much carbs and fats do you need? That's the question. And then it's like, okay, let's hit that amount. It's not about restricting this and restricting that it's what is the actual threshold amount that you require to function on a regular basis and feel good, and be able to sustain a healthy body weight for yourself, on top of having a micronutrient dense diet. So it's a true nutrient dense diet has enough nutrients from a macro perspective, carbs, proteins, fats, and then also from micro perspective, and I think the frame around these things is really important to point out, maybe not, perhaps for this, the gentleman who asked this question, but for many people, because I know both you and I see this with our clients is like, there's a fear around having carbs and fat because it's Oh, these are the energy substrates, and you're just gonna get stored straight to fat. And it's like, you, you need them, you need them to function. If you don't, you have enough carbs and fat on board, you number one, you can't eat enough protein. If you eat too much protein, if you don't have enough carbs and fat, you can effectively die. Because protein does basically created a eliminates ATP at deliver right as we kind of talked about with ammonia and whatnot and conversion of amino acids to glucose. But the other thing is that you will start to adaptively down regulate your metabolism again. So you need these energy substrate, it's quite important. Even if you are going to do a keto diet, it cannot be too high in protein, or else you will run into problems, it still needs to have a decent amount of the diet as fat and I'm not saying to do a keto diet. But my point being is that these energy macronutrients are just as important as the micronutrients and as the protein and all these, all these different things. And the goal is not to just constantly restrict and lower and try to find all the strategies so that you can just eat less of these things. It's you need to eat the right amount of these things. And this also ties in with cravings as well. Where if a lot of clients that come to me and I'm I know for you is wager you as well, Jay, it's they come to you know, like man, I have cravings for salty foods for fatty foods. I need something sweet all the time. And it's just like, and it's like, I'm just so addicted to sugar. I don't know how many times I've heard that. And it's like you're not addicted to sugar. You need sugar to function, you need carbohydrate to function. And your sweet taste is telling you hey, like we need some carbs, like please go find your carbs. And that's why the feeling is overwhelming if your body is giving you an energetic signal. Now this doesn't mean that filling your craving with antigens. poundcake is the solution. But it does mean if you eat enough carbohydrates from the right sources, fruits, juices, maybe some tubers, if you tolerate them, maybe some other starches that you tolerate raw like rice or something like that, that we mentioned. You probably won't have sweet cravings anymore. And I'd say, almost every single client that I've worked with has largely eliminated cravings, once they were able to eat the right amount of these foods for themselves. And again, you can figure out the right amount for yourself. It's not it, like there's a ballpark that you can that you can get. And then there's also tweaking that ballpark over time to your particular circumstances. And again, we talked about protein wants to be kept stable, right? You there's a certain amount of protein that you need for certain functions, that's at point eight grams per pound, roughly. And a good starting place for carbs is two times the amount of protein. So if you have 100 grams of protein a day to start 200 grams of carbs to start, and again, that says, Those are random amounts. I'm not saying that's for this individual could start. And then I would once you kind of get a sense of where your caloric target is, you could fill the difference with fat and then and then tweak carbs and carbs and fat depending upon what you're tolerating what you're not tolerating, etc. And maybe you want a little more carbs, a little less fat, etc. And again, the another really important piece here, and I'm almost done my monologue, I promise. Is that you that it's important to tweak things to your own context, instead of looking at an arbitrary value and think that, okay, this value is set in stone, it's no What's your response to what you're doing? And then you adjust accordingly, based on that response. The systems are, it's a system, it's an organic process, it's constantly unfolding, and different contexts will change the requirement. And it's important to adjust appropriately and be open to adjusting and figuring out what works specifically for you.

Jay Feldman  1:06:39  
Yeah, yeah, I agree with all that. And again, I'll reference back those up to those episodes, where we talked about macronutrient guidelines and suggestions and things like that. And, again, just to throw out a couple of real simple ideas, as far as getting calories goes, I mean, two ounces of dried mango, that's 45 grams of carbs, that's 190 calories. A couple ounces of potato chips cooked in coconut oil, or olive oil to three ounces is 400 calories. You know, it's, it can be and and I know we're saying you know, there's such a focus on micronutrients that, like it's we've gone way too far that way. And we've forgotten the incredible value of macronutrients, but also, dried mango and potatoes are not are not nutrient poor, like micronutrient poor. Not only do they have micronutrients, but they have a ton of micronutrients for some reason, because potatoes are white, and french fries are bad for you, so to speak. People have have thought that potatoes don't have a lot of nutrients, but they're really nutrient dense ton of potassium, you've got magnesium, vitamins a ton in there. I mean, yeah. So it's, even if you just took, you know, the orange juice, potato chips cooked in coconut oil, some dried fruit. And, you know, that's all right, that could already be 1000 calories, not to mention all of your meals, I mean, those could just be some snacks and just what you have between meals. So it's I think the if somebody's struggling to get enough calories in, especially when they're at 1400 to 600 calories, the problem is most likely the perspective rather than an actual inability to come up with foods that are going to make up the diet. Now if we're talking about going from 3000 to 5000, yes, at that point, it can get a little tricky. If you have really high needs because you're an athlete and whatever else, then you might need to like them. Okay, we can talk about some specifics there. And you know how to make things more concentrated and add in. Again, you can add an extra couple ounces, or a couple tablespoons of butter to the potatoes or rice. And that's, you know, several 100 calories more as well. When I'm trying to get at is, is that in this case, I think the biggest thing is getting comfortable with some of these different foods. And that's probably the the linchpin here. All right. If you enjoyed that episode, please leave a like or comment if you're watching on YouTube. And if you're listening elsewhere, please leave a review or five star rating on iTunes. All of those things really do a lot to help support the podcast and are very much appreciated. To check out the show notes for today's episode, where you can take a look at the studies, articles and anything else that we referenced. Throughout today's episode, you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast. And if you're looking to optimally support your metabolism, and to lose weight, improve your digestion, get amazing sleep, rebalance your hormones, boost your energy and so much more with clear action steps and strategies. Along with personalized guidance from me that head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/solution where you can find all of the information for the energy balanced solution program. This program includes customized health coaching a video library with videos on restoring gut health, losing weight without destroying your metabolism, boosting your metabolism getting amazing risk rebalancing your hormones and tons more. It also includes resources like a sample meal plan and supplement guide, as well as a private community. So head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/solution to check out all the details. And with that, I'll see you in the next episode.


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